FED RULES TOUCHDOWN OR NOT ?

[riffraft]

If it is so blatant that even Helen Keller can see it, yeah, flag it.  If the kid did something that dumb that's on him, not us.  Most coaches will understand, and if they don't teach them.

Sure if it is a take down, but certainly not a general restriction.

[NEWOFFICIAL]

It was my intention to encourage good discussion with this clip. I think we’ve succeeded. It’s a great discussion topic for associations across the country.
I know terrific officials who feel this is a TD in Fed Rules ( first foot down in end zone and possession) and I know terrific officials who feel this is incomplete ( didn’t maintain possession and complete the catch).
We need to have the NFHS give us a ruling and I intend to get this sent to the NFHS through the Florida High School Athletic Association.

[AlUpstateNY]

It was my intention to encourage good discussion with this clip. I think we’ve succeeded. It’s a great discussion topic for associations across the country.
I know terrific officials who feel this is a TD in Fed Rules ( first foot down in end zone and possession) and I know terrific officials who feel this is incomplete ( didn’t maintain possession and complete the catch).
We need to have the NFHS give us a ruling and I intend to get this sent to the NFHS through the Florida High School Athletic Association.

Not sure what additional detail you need from NFHS.  As you indicate, NFHS Rules clearly state, "first foot down in end zone and (with) possession", which equates to a "Catch", and in this hypothetical a TD. 

NFHS Rules also clearly indicate, "didn’t (establish and) maintain possession and(or otherwise) complete the catch" does not produce a "catch", therefore not a TD.

It seems the only question would be YOUR determination and judgment on what YOU saw, and [i]YOUR[/i] willingness to Call it, as YOU BELIEVE YOU have seen it, as complying with NFHS (ONLY) Rules.

[Ralph Damren]

The calling official DIDN'T have :

(1) Thru the same eyes as the video that we saw.
(2) Had to make his call in a split-second, so far we've had near a week.
(3) Any capability to replay...and replay...and replay....and replay....
(4)He did not have a pause button or zoom-in or slo-mo options.

I would go with his call.

[AlUpstateNY]

The calling official DIDN'T have :

(1) Thru the same eyes as the video that we saw.
(2) Had to make his call in a split-second, so far we've had near a week.
(3) Any capability to replay...and replay...and replay....and replay....
(4)He did not have a pause button or zoom-in or slo-mo options.

I would go with his call.

Absolutely agree, and also consider, he was in appropriate position to observe the action.  Didn't hesitate, suggesting he was confident in what he observed and perhaps most significant, was working in a game covered by NCAA Rules. (and philosophies).

[HLinNC]

We need to have the NFHS give us a ruling and I intend to get this sent to the NFHS through the Florida High School Athletic Association.


The NFHS isn't going to give us a ruling.  It is up to each individual state interpreter.  if you're in Florida, it will stop with the FHSAA.  In NC, it will be the NCHSAA.  If in Maine, its Ralph, I think.

[Ralph Damren]

The Rules Committee Rep from Florida is Frank Beasley, who I believe works in the Florida office. I doubt that asking for a ruling from a video will get any response as it is a judgement call. The applicable rules may be quoted, as many have done here. Be sure to follow your state's protocol, as they may want you to submit any questions to your local interp. first.

[Morningrise]

When was the last time you watched a training video where the voiceover guy said, "in high school, this would be a catch, but by NCAA rules, this is incomplete"?

I've never seen that.

I believe that a catch is a catch is a catch, no matter what level and what rulebook. I believe NFHS and NCAA and NFL all have the same conception of what a catch is. The difference is, they just have made differing attempts to describe it in words.

Call me a Catch Unitarian.

[CalhounLJ]

FWIW, I never saw possession in the clip

[AlUpstateNY]

When was the last time you watched a training video where the voiceover guy said, "in high school, this would be a catch, but by NCAA rules, this is incomplete"?
I've never seen that.
I believe that a catch is a catch is a catch, no matter what level and what rulebook. I believe NFHS and NCAA and NFL all have the same conception of what a catch is. The difference is, they just have made differing attempts to describe it in words.
Call me a Catch Unitarian.

WOW, think of all the money to be saved discarding all the multiple Rule Books, not to mention the countless hours spent trying to understand the differing requirements for each level, if we only had (and followed) a single "Unitarian" Rule Book.

Would that "Unitarian" book require one foot, or two, to touch the ground inbounds, necessary to complete a catch?  Or would it actually  explain what a continued "football move" required?  Would that book be designed to regulate a game played by 10-18 year olds developing special skills during a progressive learning period, or be geared towards the needs and requirements of high level professional athletes competing at the top skill, and maturity levels in return for enormous (life altering) sums of money necessary to support a Billion dollar entertainment industry?

How would "training videos" or their "voice over guys" choose to narrate a "one size fits All" approach, or would anyone really serious, pay any attention, or care? 

[Morningrise]

WOW, think of all the money to be saved discarding all the multiple Rule Books, not to mention the countless hours spent trying to understand the differing requirements for each level, if we only had (and followed) a single "Unitarian" Rule Book.

Yeah okay, that's exactly what I was saying, I was implying that every single rule is actually identical.

Would that "Unitarian" book require one foot, or two, to touch the ground inbounds, necessary to complete a catch?

True, each rulebook provides a separate definition of inbounds. This has no bearing on the concept of catch versus incomplete, or incomplete versus fumble. Except insofar as a player has to be inbounds to make a catch. Which, I might add, all rulebooks agree on.

Or would it actually  explain what a continued "football move" required?

No rulebook exhaustively explains what counts as a football move, though each one provides certain examples in an attempt to put into words the concept that exists independent of language.

The rulebooks can express catch guidelines in different ways, but this alone is not evidence that they have a different fundamental conception. Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica use different words to explain what a "poem" is, but we can be confident they are using different words to describe the same thing.

[AlUpstateNY]

Yeah okay, that's exactly what I was saying, I was implying that every single rule is actually identical.

True, each rulebook provides a separate definition of inbounds. This has no bearing on the concept of catch versus incomplete, or incomplete versus fumble. Except insofar as a player has to be inbounds to make a catch. Which, I might add, all rulebooks agree on.  No rulebook exhaustively explains what counts as a football move, though each one provides certain examples in an attempt to put into words the concept that exists independent of language.

The rulebooks can express catch guidelines in different ways, but this alone is not evidence that they have a different fundamental conception.

I'll be extra careful, when I receive my copy of the 2020 NFHS Rules (& Case Book), to search for the NFHS concept of the relevance and relation to "what counts as a football move",related to establishing a "Catch" that I've missed thus far, or stick with NFHS 2-4-1.

[Ralph Damren]

When writing rules it is often a challenge in putting action into words and then add common sense.
  (5-man crew)

[CalhounLJ]

Ah, that elusive common sense is sorely needed on this site

[AlUpstateNY]

Along with misguided "really good intentions", the road to Hell is paved with presumed "common sense".

[KWH]

When was the last time you watched a training video where the voiceover guy said, "in high school, this would be a catch, but by NCAA rules, this is incomplete"?

I've never seen that.

I believe that a catch is a catch is a catch, no matter what level and what rulebook. I believe NFHS and NCAA and NFL all have the same conception of what a catch is. The difference is, they just have made differing attempts to describe it in words.

Call me a Catch Unitarian.

Wow!
Interesting concept!
No too likely to catch on! 

[Ralph Damren]

HERE YE, HERE  YE......."THE REVOLT OF '48"....  (7-MAN CREW)

"Up to 1947 high school and college rules committees went their separate ways writing two different codes of football rules. At the end of 1947 and early in 1948 a tentative agreement was reached to produce a joint high school/college code. This was done after negotiations and a great deal of give and take on the part of both rules committees. In 1948, agreement had been reached to publish identical rules books. The one published by NFHS contained the copy mutually agreed upon. At the last moment, the college committee withdrew its support and decided to publish their own rules book. ....... It was the beginning of the elimination of most exceptions to various rules."

2019/2020 NFHS FOOTBALL HANDBOOK , P. 29,30

When lobbying for a rule change, the worst approach is : "IT'LL MAKE IT JUST LIKE THE NCAA...."
  (5-MAN CREW)

[KWH]

I have a problem with the NFHS circularity of the rules as they are written.

2-4-1...A Catch requires Possession

2-34-1...Possession requires A Catch


What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?

[Ralph Damren]

I have a problem with the NFHS circularity of the rules as they are written.

2-4-1...A Catch requires Possession

2-34-1...Possession requires A Catch


What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?

The chicken crossed the road to lay an egg ! Where did the chicken come from ? = The other side of the road .

My prediction of the day : The Red Sox won't lose a game before Memorial Day.

[Magician]

I have a problem with the NFHS circularity of the rules as they are written.

2-4-1...A Catch requires Possession

2-34-1...Possession requires A Catch


What came first? The Chicken or the Egg?

If you don't have both you don't have either. Does that help?

[Legacy Zebra]

"To be like NCAA" isn't a great reason to change a rule, but "to be different than NCAA" is also not a great reason to keep a rule. If the only argument against something is that you don't want to line up with college rules, maybe you should reconsider your point of view.

[AlUpstateNY]

"To be like NCAA" isn't a great reason to change a rule, but "to be different than NCAA" is also not a great reason to keep a rule. If the only argument against something is that you don't want to line up with college rules, maybe you should reconsider your point of view.

Why would anyone presume that football rules designed to appropriately apply to, and satisfy the skill set, physical characteristics and specific objectives of high caliber young adult athletes and/or seasoned highly skilled professional, experienced athletes, would somehow automatically translate to the developing skill set and different learning and teaching objectives of a physically demanding Interscholastic level of Football?

[bama_stripes]

"To be like NCAA" isn't a great reason to change a rule, but "to be different than NCAA" is also not a great reason to keep a rule. If the only argument against something is that you don't want to line up with college rules, maybe you should reconsider your point of view.

This.

If NCAA adopts a rule that proves over time to be useful and effective, why not consider adopting it at the NFHS level?

Example:  NCAA adopts the XFL kickoff rule.  Statistics then show a huge reduction in injuries during kickoff plays.  Why would NFHS not strongly consider adopting the same rule?

[AlUpstateNY]

This.

If NCAA adopts a rule that proves over time to be useful and effective, why not consider adopting it at the NFHS level?
Example:  NCAA adopts the XFL kickoff rule.  Statistics then show a huge reduction in injuries during kickoff plays.  Why would NFHS not strongly consider adopting the same rule?

Why would you presume the NFHS has done EXACTLY that, but that because of the differences in skills, talents, physicality, capabilities the analysis doesn't support the same conclusions.

[bossman72]

"To be like NCAA" isn't a great reason to change a rule, but "to be different than NCAA" is also not a great reason to keep a rule. If the only argument against something is that you don't want to line up with college rules, maybe you should reconsider your point of view.

The worst part is when the NFHS adopts an NCAA rule, they never just copy the existing wording from the rule.  They have to make their own version of the rule and screw something up in the process.  Every. Single. Time.  Just to not be like NCAA.