Author Topic: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?  (Read 10053 times)

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Sroberts9337

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Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« on: October 25, 2015, 03:53:29 PM »
What is the purpose of having the wings hold their arms out to indicate that the nearest receiver is off the line of scrimmage?

Why do they not do it in the NFL? Is it because of the communication devices?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 04:03:10 PM »
Wings are responsible for 7 on the LOS.  It aids in knowing how many are on the backfield.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 04:16:06 PM »
How does this signalling help in the situation where the widest receiver on both sides is on the line? If you have two inside receivers off the line on both sides, the signal (or the lack of one) does not add any value to determining the legality of the formation.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 04:22:59 PM »
Actually, Kalle, the primary reason for the signal is to alert each other whether the wide is off the line, making the tight(er) end eligible.  More often than anyone likes, or plans, at the HS level, wide outs split and position themselves on the line, (rather than in the backfield) rendering the unsuspecting tight end ineligible to go down field on a pass play.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 04:27:55 PM »
Actually, Kalle, the primary reason for the signal is to alert each other whether the wide is off the line, making the tight(er) end eligible.  More often than anyone likes, or plans, at the HS level, wide outs split and position themselves on the line, (rather than in the backfield) rendering the unsuspecting tight end ineligible to go down field on a pass play.

If this happens, do the HS supervisors want two flags on a pass play? I would want only one flag, from the side where the ineligible inside receiver lined up.

I really don't see a reason for this signalling, and it is in use in IFAF and in Finland. I would think that signalling the number of linemen from the snapper would be more relevant. But I rarely work wings.


Offline ncwingman

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 04:34:59 PM »
In general, most high schools do not line up in complex spread formation with stacked trips and double tight ends. To this end, signaling the last guy on/off helps when the guy is in "no man's land" from the perspective of the far wing.

I agree that this signal becomes confusing/useless when more complex formations are used. If you've got trips to your side, signalling what the widest receiver is doing doesn't help a whole lot and you really need to signal 2/3 are on or 2/3 are off.

I do know that college wing officials do have signals for these scenarios, but they aren't standard in Fed rules. As for the NFL, I'd imagine that there are signals for formations that are used, but they aren't as obvious or held as long as to not alert the defense to the offensive formations.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 04:38:16 PM »
If this happens, do the HS supervisors want two flags on a pass play? I would want only one flag, from the side where the ineligible inside receiver lined up.

I really don't see a reason for this signalling, and it is in use in IFAF and in Finland. I would think that signalling the number of linemen from the snapper would be more relevant. But I rarely work wings.

There should only be one flag for ineligible downfield, as only the close wing would be watching the tight end in question (although there might be two if your umpire sees him too).

However, there should always be two flags for a formation foul -- the wings should agree there.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 06:41:04 PM »
It also alerts theBJ that his tight end is covered or not


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 10:39:41 AM »
If this happens, do the HS supervisors want two flags on a pass play? I would want only one flag, from the side where the ineligible inside receiver lined up.

Considering that HS football is currently officiated by 4, 5, 6 or 7 man crews, individual supervisors reflect individual situations and likely prefer different signals based on the configurations they are supervising.  Normally, or at least more often than not, there would likely only be a single flag thrown by the closer side official, who would focus on the actions of the player in question, who is on that official's side. 

It seems more often, teams are being coached to risk reacting to the official's signalling, to determine whether inside potential receivers are in fact eligible, or not, and adjust coverage requirements accordingly.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 10:47:52 AM »
The covering official should have the flag down for an ineligible receiver.

In our area, the preferred mechanic us to have two flags for IF but if only one is down, we aren't going to squawk about it too much.

Offline Suudy

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2015, 10:57:35 AM »
For our part, our fields aren't the flattest, and certainly the lines are rarely straight.  Sometimes it isn't clear where the far guy is lined up, and this mechanic helps.  Then again, we don't get too caught up in not having two flags for an IF.  Two flags look a lot better in these scenarios, but in my experience it depends upon several other factors besides whether one is punched back pre-snap (such as experience level of the players, officials, etc).  For my part, I usually only flag it if the guy on my side is off.  At the varsity level, a single flag early in the game cleans it up.  JV and below, I give several, several warnings.  JH and below?  Never.

I agree that this signal becomes confusing/useless when more complex formations are used. If you've got trips to your side, signalling what the widest receiver is doing doesn't help a whole lot and you really need to signal 2/3 are on or 2/3 are off.
We handle this by holding two or three fingers up over our head (same as we use for 2nd/3rd down), then rotate our arm back.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 03:16:55 PM »
We handle this by holding two or three fingers up over our head (same as we use for 2nd/3rd down), then rotate our arm back.

We do something similar, with wings punching back and extending 2 fingers or 3 fingers to designate 2 or 3 off the line.  That came in very handy on Friday as one team used this formation for a 2 pt conversion after every TD.  (not the actual numbers, just examples of who was eligible and who wasn't.)

                                                                   X
                  80 51 52 53 54 55                      25 (snapper)
                                                                                                                21  22  23
                                                                  10

The team scored 4 TDs and followed each with a successful pass to the snapper for 2 more points.  Opposing coach spent all of his energy trying to convince us the formation was illegal and (apparently) none of it on figuring out how to actually stop the play.


Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 04:44:23 PM »
In general, most high schools do not line up in complex spread formation with stacked trips and double tight ends. To this end, signaling the last guy on/off helps when the guy is in "no man's land" from the perspective of the far wing.
Dude come on out to NorCal and watch what happens here no huddle spread with empty backfields. Coaches complaining because we miss defensive holding because we have 5 players running complex routes with only three guys to watch them. And the schools won't cough up the cash for 7 officials. Right tackle can pretty much hold in every pass play because the flank is trying to watch receivers. It's a circus out here.

Offline theunofficialofficial

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2015, 10:38:12 PM »
Dude come on out to NorCal and watch what happens here no huddle spread with empty backfields. Coaches complaining because we miss defensive holding because we have 5 players running complex routes with only three guys to watch them. And the schools won't cough up the cash for 7 officials. Right tackle can pretty much hold in every pass play because the flank is trying to watch receivers. It's a circus out here.


Same here in SoCal we see A LOT OF spread, doubles, trips, even formations with 4 receivers on one side. A lot for one flank to ensure 7 on the line. Also, those poor BJs having so many keys. Seeing a Wing-T or an I-formation is a relief! We do our best with mechanics to get action on Tackles/TEs but it's definitely something that we keep working on every down/game/season.

Offline UmpSC

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 03:40:43 PM »
I've been following this discussion, but hesitant to jump into it.  I'm in SC and I VERY rarely have a wing who calls a foul for ineligible downfield.  I always get the linemen, but also any tight ends who make that "mistake".  I've had three instances this year alone where a TD has been disallowed due not only to the TE being ineligible, but we have illegal touching because he's the one who caught the ball. 

I go to the wing on that side and verify that he had him covered up before going to my R to give him the call.  I've had wings who definitely confirm what they had and others who just tell me that whatever their indicator was before the play is what I have to go on because they don't recall who was where, even though I'm giving them a "covered" signal before the snap. 

Maybe this is just in our state, but it has been interesting to see what others have to say about this.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 09:34:50 AM »
In Maine, the R & U usually make this call by glancing at the wings to determine who's on / not on the LOS. We also ask the wings to tap their cap if the slot back is covered. R & U will then give a fist if A/K has 11, followed by a "thumbs up" :thumbup if we have 7 on the LOS. On occasion, the wings make the IF call. On occasion, the Red Flops win a game......

 GO  METS !!!!           

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 03:20:08 PM »
The fun part is the receiver that comes out and asks "Am I OK?" I can't answer that question. I'm not his mother, don't know if he was dropped on his head as a child. On or Off, I'll line you up....

"Am I OK?" At this age I sometimes wonder if I'm OK. Can't worry about you too. LOL...

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 03:24:51 PM »
Here the question is "Am I good?"  I've no idea but I have you on/I have you off.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2015, 08:25:50 PM »
Here the question is "Am I good?"  I've no idea but I have you on/I have you off.

"I don't know yet, since I haven't seen you play.  But you're in the backfield."  yEs:

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2015, 09:39:11 PM »
Here the question is "Am I good?"  I've no idea but I have you on/I have you off.

Not according to your coach, but you are off the line if that helps.

Offline SD_Casey

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2015, 11:58:56 PM »
In South Dakota, this year the state asked us to start to punch the outside guy always, on and off.  The feedback from the coaches here was that they were coaching their defenses to key on us to let them know who was eligible and who was not.  Don't know if that helps any of you but that's what's happening up here in the tundra.

Offline IA Linesman

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2015, 02:31:24 PM »
Our crew punches every end off or on.  We also use our upfield hand to signal number of linemen on our side.

2 = hand on hat/cheek
3 = hand on chest
4 = hand over pocket.

We as a crew don't miss many IF's for this reason and it's a simple mechanic to use.

Offline walkintall

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2015, 02:41:49 PM »
We also punch on or off for the widest player. This is my 9th year. I've had one game where both myself and the other HL/LJ both threw a IF flag. I've brought this up in meetings before, because, to me, it looks bad. But, apparently not enough feel it is a problem.

Offline goodgrr

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2015, 02:49:08 AM »
Let me make sure I understand.  You think it looks bad when both wings throw the flag?

Why would you believe that both shouldn't and which would you believe should put their flag down?

Offline VALJ

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Re: Why do the wings indicate the receiver is off the LOS?
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2015, 07:19:46 AM »
I suspect he means the opposite - both SHOULD have the flag down, and it looks bad when only one does.  That's a pet peeve of mine, too.