Author Topic: Enforcement Rationale?  (Read 336 times)

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Offline bama_stripes

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Enforcement Rationale?
« on: October 13, 2021, 07:42:25 AM »
(1)  A 1/10 @ A20.  A2 runs to the B10, where he is tackled by the face mask, fumbles, and B4 recovers at the B5.

(2)  A 1/10 @ A20.  A1 passes to A2 at the A30.  A2 runs to the B10, where he fumbles, and B4 recovers at the B5.  During the pass, A1 is roughed by B54.

Enforcements?

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2021, 08:08:19 AM »
(1) Ball stays at B's 5 BUT in possession of A. Basic spot for FM on a running play is the spot of the fumble. Hope the BJ had his bean bag ready.

(2) RTP is previous spot enforcement, as tacking it onto the end of run isn't available as B is next to put the ball in play.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2021, 08:15:33 AM »
Crap, never mind. I didn't read B had possession at the end.


Assuming facts not in evidence
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 08:25:32 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2021, 08:58:29 AM »
(1)  A 1/10 @ A20.  A2 runs to the B10, where he is tackled by the face mask, fumbles, and B4 recovers at the B5.  Enforcement spot is at the end of the run B10.  A has 1st and goal at the B5.  1/2 the distance....

(2)  A 1/10 @ A20.  A1 passes to A2 at the A30.  A2 runs to the B10, where he fumbles, and B4 recovers at the B5.  During the pass, A1 is roughed by B54.
This is all one big loose ball play so the enforcement spot is the previous spot.  A has 1st and 10 at the A35.
[/s] Correction, the loose ball play ends when the receiver catches the ball and a running play begins so the enforcement spot is at the end of the run at the B10.  so 1st and goal at the B5.
Enforcements?

« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 09:43:14 AM by Derek Teigen »

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2021, 09:59:15 AM »
#2 is considered as a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement. The RTP foul occurred while the ball was still loose. Special enforcement from the end of the run could not apply as the play did not end up with A having the ball.

Offline juxone

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2021, 10:47:08 AM »
Enforcement rationale expanded question?

During a pass play that results in a change of possession, (an interception) a team B  non-player is on the field and collides with an official.

Does B retain possession after a penalty is enforced ? Would it be 1 and 10 or 1 and 25 following the non-player foul?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2021, 10:50:12 AM »
Answer is how is this administered.  Is this administered as a live ball or dead ball foul?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2021, 10:55:39 AM »
See 10-4-5c.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 11:49:47 AM »
The casebook is also a great resource for answering questions like these. If you have one, look up the case book plays relevant to the question.

10.4.5 SITUATION A:

With third and goal from Bís 2-yard line, A1ís forward pass is intercepted by B1 in the end zone and returned for an apparent touchdown. During B1ís run, B2 clips at the 50, after which the coach of B comes on the field at Aís 40 to criticize the covering officialís call.

RULING: First and 10 for B on its 20-yard line. Since the foul by Bís coach is an unsportsmanlike foul, it is enforced from the succeeding spot after the penalty for B2ís live-ball foul is enforced. The line-to-gain equipment is not set until all penalties have been administered. This is not a multiple-foul situation.


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Offline juxone

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2021, 12:09:16 PM »
The casebook is also a great resource for answering questions like these. If you have one, look up the case book plays relevant to the question.

10.4.5 SITUATION A:

With third and goal from Bís 2-yard line, A1ís forward pass is intercepted by B1 in the end zone and returned for an apparent touchdown. During B1ís run, B2 clips at the 50, after which the coach of B comes on the field at Aís 40 to criticize the covering officialís call.

RULING: First and 10 for B on its 20-yard line. Since the foul by Bís coach is an unsportsmanlike foul, it is enforced from the succeeding spot after the penalty for B2ís live-ball foul is enforced. The line-to-gain equipment is not set until all penalties have been administered. This is not a multiple-foul situation.


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Yep I was reading that  very situation.. but then I looked at the rules (See 10-4-5c.) Non-player foul the basic spot it the succeeding spot..  which led to my question.  So then the non-player foul would be enforced from the succeeding spot and then the USC for the contact would be assessed, making it 1st and 10 NOT 1 and 25?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 12:13:05 PM »
Enforcement rationale expanded question?

During a pass play that results in a change of possession, (an interception) a team B  non-player is on the field and collides with an official.

Does B retain possession after a penalty is enforced ? Would it be 1 and 10 or 1 and 25 following the non-player foul?
Yes B retains possession. Yes it would be 1 and 10 after enforcement.


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Offline Logical

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2021, 12:19:03 PM »
The only way it would not be 1/10 is when a foul occurs AFTER the ball is set ready for play for the next series

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2021, 12:51:07 PM »
Yep I was reading that  very situation.. but then I looked at the rules (See 10-4-5c.) Non-player foul the basic spot it the succeeding spot..  which led to my question.  So then the non-player foul would be enforced from the succeeding spot and then the USC for the contact would be assessed, making it 1st and 10 NOT 1 and 25?
Iím not seeing two fouls. If you have a nonplayer on the field and that nonplayer collides with an official, Iím not throwing two flags here. In the first place, everybody except the R and U should be working off the field in the restricted area. If the nonplayer is far enough on the field to be hit by the R or U, you have bigger problems.


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Offline juxone

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2021, 02:22:03 PM »
Iím not seeing two fouls. If you have a nonplayer on the field and that nonplayer collides with an official, Iím not throwing two flags here. In the first place, everybody except the R and U should be working off the field in the restricted area. If the nonplayer is far enough on the field to be hit by the R or U, you have bigger problems.


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I agree and from a game management viewpoint one would have bigger problems,... the question was really just an effort from a purely technical rules analysis point of view.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2021, 03:11:24 PM »
#2 is considered as a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement. The RTP foul occurred while the ball was still loose. Special enforcement from the end of the run could not apply as the play did not end up with A having the ball.

Please check my understanding.  Everything that precedes a pass up till the reception is considered a loose ball play.  Once the receiver possesses and starts running it becomes a running play.

  9-4-4 PENALTY for RTP (15 yards and a first down from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and A has possession of the ball at the end of the down...........otherwise (if change of possession then) 15 yards from the previous spot.

The dead ball spot would be where the fumble occurred and somebody should have that spot bean bagged or the dead ball could be where A recovered the ball.  If A had recovered then the spot for enforcement would be where the fumble occurred, but because B recovered we have to go back to the previous spot.

question:  what if the scenario is changed to include Team A fumbles but recovers the ball 17 yards downfield from the spot of the fumble.  Would they have to decline the penalty to keep the ball where they recovered it instead of marching off the penalty from the end of the run (where the fumble occurred).

In any case, in the scenario presented Team A in this case has lost a lot of yardage that they gained legally but they also get to retain the ball that they lost.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 03:18:37 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2021, 03:25:31 PM »
Please check my understanding.  Everything that precedes a pass up till the reception is considered a loose ball play.  Once the receiver possesses and starts running it becomes a running play.

  9-4-4 PENALTY for RTP (15 yards and a first down from the dead ball spot when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and A has possession of the ball at the end of the down...........otherwise (if change of possession then) 15 yards from the previous spot.

The dead ball spot would be where the fumble occurred and somebody should have that spot bean bagged or the dead ball could be where A recovered the ball.  If A had recovered then the spot for enforcement would be where the fumble occurred, but because B recovered we have to go back to the previous spot.

question:  what if the scenario is changed to include Team A fumbles but recovers the ball 17 yards downfield from the spot of the fumble.  Would they have to decline the penalty to keep the ball where they recovered it instead of marching off the penalty from the end of the run (where the fumble occurred).

In any case, in the scenario presented Team A in this case has lost a lot of yardage that they gained legally but they also get to retain the ball that they lost.
The dead ball spot is not where the fumble occurred, itís where the ball becomes dead. The end of the run is the spot of the fumble. None of this is relevant though because the foul didnít occur in relation to a run, so the penalty cannot be enforced from the end of the related run. The basic spot of enforcement is previous spot because it was a loose ball play. However, because of the exception, we can tack it on to the dead ball spot.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2021, 03:28:47 PM »
On another but related note, I got dinged on here recently for being adamant about a technical definition of a rule and maybe weíll deserved, but the definitions are fundamental to understanding interpreting and applying the rules. We canít change definitions or make them up just because thereís a conflict. The definitions rule the roost.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2021, 04:06:42 PM »
(1) Ball stays at B's 5 BUT in possession of A. Basic spot for FM on a running play is the spot of the fumble. Hope the BJ had his bean bag ready.

(2) RTP is previous spot enforcement, as tacking it onto the end of run isn't available as B is next to put the ball in play.

100% correct, by rule.

But itís obvious to everyone watching that the same thing happened on both plays:  An A player fumbled after a long run, B recovered, but B was penalized 15 yards (or HTD).  Yet the results are vastly different in terms of field position.

The problem arises when these plays happen to different teams in the same game.  The coach of the team on offense when the RTP foul occurred is now the defenseís coach on the FM foul.  Iím not sure the ďCoach, by rule...Ē explanation is going to pacify him enough to keep him in the game.

Is this something that needs to be changed?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 04:13:20 PM »
100% correct, by rule.

But itís obvious to everyone watching that the same thing happened on both plays:  An A player fumbled after a long run, B recovered, but B was penalized 15 yards (or HTD).  Yet the results are vastly different in terms of field position.

The problem arises when these plays happen to different teams in the same game.  The coach of the team on offense when the RTP foul occurred is now the defenseís coach on the FM foul.  Iím not sure the ďCoach, by rule...Ē explanation is going to pacify him enough to keep him in the game.

Is this something that needs to be changed?
I donít think so. If you think about it, the location of the two flags will be more than enough to sell the argument. Most coaches understand penalty enforcement enough to reasonably assume the ball will end up somewhere close to the flag. Which it does
In both cases. The biggest sell will be the rtp but A coach will be so happy to get the ball back with 15 to boot and a first down that he wonít give you much grief. The defense coach on the face mask will be so mad his kid cost him the ball he wonít be mad at you.


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Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement Rationale?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2021, 04:49:50 PM »
A possible rationale to B's coach in #1/ A's coach in #2 : "Coach, they were able to keep the ball deep in your territory, as your face mask foul may have caused the fumble. You would have been able to keep the ball and penalty deep in your territory, too, if you hadn't lost the ball by fumble yEs: ."