Author Topic: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals  (Read 12463 times)

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Offline Morningrise

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Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« on: November 21, 2019, 09:18:33 AM »
1: In any game played with collegiate or professional goalposts or any other goals smaller than NFHS regulation width, a ball striking or passing directly over the vertical goalposts shall be deemed to have passed completely between the goalposts.

Radicalness: 3.0

Rationale: My state runs their championship games at an NFL stadium and they don't bring in wider goalposts. It's a shame that in the biggest game of the year, the kicking game is significantly hampered. The least we can do is make it so doinks count. A doink on an NCAA or NFL upright would obviously be a successful field goal on a proper NFHS upright, so let's at least give them that. It's perfectly fair (fairer than the existing rule), and easy to officiate. (The only tricky scenario would be a rare ball hitting the exact corner of the goalpost.)

It's also not uncommon to have Pop Warner games at college fields. So this rule isn't for just one day of the year.


2: When under 2:00 remains in the fourth quarter, Team A is ahead in the score, and the play does not gain yardage, the game clock shall stop when the ball becomes dead and shall start on the next snap or free kick.

Radicalness: 7.5

Rationale: Every friggin' year there's at least one game where some really intense kid on the losing team tries to bust through the line and knock the ball away before the QB can kneel, and then the predictable donnybrook ensues. And less often, but sometimes, the offense can line up as if to take a knee, but then try to run up the score, probably as payback for some past incident.

This rule removes kneeling as an end-of-game option. Radical, for sure, but why is it better? Because there are no unwritten rules for either team to violate. The winning team has to gain one yard, not adhere to a gentleman's agreement to kneel. Both teams know to expect real offense and real defense, so there's no longer any unwritten rule against playing hard, and thus no way to engender ill will by breaking said rule.

This puts an end to all the dilemmas/debates we have about how to officiate this. "They're taking a knee - do I instruct the defense not to hit them, or is that wrong? do I flag the defense if they run over the O-line, or do I flag the offense if they retaliate in anger? do I flag the offense if they say they're taking a knee but then attempt to run up the score, or have they broken no written rule?" None of this happens anymore.

I stole this idea from Canada, where I'm told they have a very similar provision.


Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 09:44:39 AM »
Using radical and sensible in the same sentence is sometimes oxymoronic. Just saying.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2019, 10:15:19 AM »
Thanks for the suggested changes, Morningrise. On question #1, when we added 1-2-3e note 2 and 1-2-5d note, it was felt that the narrower midfield would be fair with the narrower goalpost as kicks from the hash would provide a better target. On #2, I proposed using a procedure from the Ohio Blue Book when in victory formation for our mechanics manual. It was defeated, but we adopted in Maine several years ago and it has worked well.

P.S. : A few years ago, one of our regional championships was played on a NCAA field. The visiting team, trailing by 2 with mere seconds to go, tried a FG that clanged off a pole and went wide. When asked in postgame by a local scribe if it bothered him that he would have won with his goalposts at home, the losing coach replied : "Heck no, they were kicking at the same goalposts that we were." That seems to be the general attitude of our coaches and haven't heard it discussed at NFHS.   
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 10:09:07 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline scrounge

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2019, 11:04:38 AM »
I can't really see the need for adding these exceptions. In the first, if coaches have accepted playing on an NCAA or pro field, then they've accepted all that goes with it. Just way too rare of a situation to warrant an exception IMO. In the second, I highly recommend the Ohio procedure as well, as Ralph mentioned. I think NC adopted it as well. Just another one that can be handled thru mechanics/procedures rather than another rule book exception.

Now, if we can just get allowing an immediate spike from either hand-to-hand snap OR shotgun, now we're talking! :)

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 11:37:59 AM »


Now, if we can just get allowing an immediate spike from either hand-to-hand snap OR shotgun, now we're talking! :)

I am confused by this.  Are you saying that in high school spiking the ball is illegal?

Offline Curious

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2019, 11:41:31 AM »
Here's a thought: if the FED is so interested in reducing injuries during kick-offs, why not "incentivize" R to signal a fair catch (I know it's already an option) if the kick is caught inside the 25 and snap from the 25  - as is available to collegiate and NFL teams (I think).

I would love to see this rule change. Does anyone think this could "fly"? 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 11:50:58 AM »
I am confused by this.  Are you saying that in high school spiking the ball is illegal?
Only hand-to-hand snaps can be legally spiked. Been on the docket several times to allow spike from shotgun ,but always failed with around 50% (need 67% to pass. 3 major deterrents :
(1) gives QB a quick glance to see if anyone's open;
(2) bad snap, fielded while airborne by QB could be spiked to prevent sack;
(3) NFL feels the same and doesn't allow spike from shotgun.
 
 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 12:07:45 PM »
Here's a thought: if the FED is so interested in reducing injuries during kick-offs, why not "incentivize" R to signal a fair catch (I know it's already an option) if the kick is caught inside the 25 and snap from the 25  - as is available to collegiate and NFL teams (I think).

I would love to see this rule change. Does anyone think this could "fly"? 
Several thoughts have been tossed around, mine being that any change would have to still allow the potential for K to regain possession of the ball. The NFL discussion of giving K the ball with a 4th & 15 from K's 40 with the chance to gain 15 and keep the ball OR punt (which is said to be more safe than a kickoff) is, IMHO, to radical. Coach Buddy Tevens of Dartmouth suggested moving the kickoffs up, the Ivy League adopted it, and their touchback rate went from 20% to 50%. The onside kick was still an option, but just kicking into the end zone would certainly reduce the number of returns.

Just the mutterings of an ole' duffer awaiting his ole' prep school (Maine Central Institute '64) to win the state championship tomorrow night.. tR:oLl

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 02:04:59 PM »
Only hand-to-hand snaps can be legally spiked. Been on the docket several times to allow spike from shotgun ,but always failed with around 50% (need 67% to pass. 3 major deterrents :
(1) gives QB a quick glance to see if anyone's open;
(2) bad snap, fielded while airborne by QB could be spiked to prevent sack;
(3) NFL feels the same and doesn't allow spike from shotgun.

Absolutely agree, this is another Pandora's box, knocking for someone to come open it.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 02:18:17 PM »
Quote
I think NC adopted it as well.

Nope


Offline HLinNC

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2019, 02:23:16 PM »
Ralph,

 Mark D. volunteered NC to test the spike from shotgun this season.  Of the games I worked, (season shortened by torn meniscus and arthroscopy), I think maybe  I had 3 snaps that qualified.  I'm assuming if we are getting to experimental phase, it will come closer to passing.


Offline Morningrise

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 09:13:38 AM »
Several thoughts have been tossed around, mine being that any change would have to still allow the potential for K to regain possession of the ball. The NFL discussion of giving K the ball with a 4th & 15 from K's 40 with the chance to gain 15 and keep the ball OR punt (which is said to be more safe than a kickoff) is, IMHO, to radical. Coach Buddy Tevens of Dartmouth suggested moving the kickoffs up, the Ivy League adopted it, and their touchback rate went from 20% to 50%. The onside kick was still an option, but just kicking into the end zone would certainly reduce the number of returns.

Just the mutterings of an ole' duffer awaiting his ole' prep school (Maine Central Institute '64) to win the state championship tomorrow night.. tR:oLl

I think the suggestion wasn't about replacing the free kick with something else, but adopting NCAA's rule of treating a fair catch of a free kick like a touchback.

It doesn't affect onside kicks, because it only applies when the fair catch takes place inside the "B"-25.

Offline sj

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 09:31:23 AM »
Has a change to make kicker offside a live ball foul ever been discussed?

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 09:33:04 AM »
Ralph,

 Mark D. volunteered NC to test the spike from shotgun this season.  Of the games I worked, (season shortened by torn meniscus and arthroscopy), I think maybe  I had 3 snaps that qualified.  I'm assuming if we are getting to experimental phase, it will come closer to passing.

I think I had one in a JV game and had a pretty full schedule

I'm curious to see what happens -- it's not a big deal in every way possible. It didn't affect the games at all -- there was no obvious offensive advantage to a shotgun spike, and it was just as obvious that a spike was coming from hand to hand vs shotgun so it didn't help or hurt the defense either. It also happened so rarely that it almost seems like a solution in search of a problem, it wasn't like schools started using it more as a tactical advantage.

It might as well pass because it won't change anything significantly, but it might as well NOT pass because it won't change anything significantly.

Offline Magician

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 09:56:08 AM »
Only hand-to-hand snaps can be legally spiked. Been on the docket several times to allow spike from shotgun ,but always failed with around 50% (need 67% to pass. 3 major deterrents :
(1) gives QB a quick glance to see if anyone's open;
(2) bad snap, fielded while airborne by QB could be spiked to prevent sack;
(3) NFL feels the same and doesn't allow spike from shotgun.

I don't see these as valid concerns because the QB can do each of the first two things under center today (muffed hand-to-hand snap) and it's not an issue. It rarely happens in NCAA and the rule has been there for a long time. I don't understand why this change would be an issue. It's an old rule created before shot gun snaps were common. I'm OK if it never changes also, but it's silly to not allow it if proposed.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 11:58:55 AM »
Has a change to make kicker offside a live ball foul ever been discussed?
That would make sense, but it also opens the can of worms of creating a specific offsides foul where the ball may remain live. In that case, why not make an offsides foul that applies to scrimmage plays as well, and reserve encroachment to the situations in the college rules where the play is shut down after a player is offsides (e.g. offsides and unabated to the quarterback, neutral zone infraction causing an offensive player to react, or a player being offsides and contacting an opponent.)?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2019, 12:34:00 PM »
I don't see these as valid concerns because the QB can do each of the first two things under center today (muffed hand-to-hand snap) and it's not an issue. It rarely happens in NCAA and the rule has been there for a long time. I don't understand why this change would be an issue. It's an old rule created before shot gun snaps were common. I'm OK if it never changes also, but it's silly to not allow it if proposed.

ABSOLUTELY, "It ain't broke, PLEASE STOP TRYING TO FIX IT".  The reason there hasn't been any problems, is because NOBODY CAN CAUSE ANY the ways things currently are. 

As suggested by the VALID concerns suggested, there's no point in being "creative" because doing so is prohibited.  However, "creative minds" are definitely in the weeds, yearning to be creative, and then the "language police" can argue indefinitely about what does "immediately", or "instantly", or whatever words the creative minds can up with, to avoid confusion, actually mean.

For those concerned about players lacking experience in taking "direct snaps", adding that skill to the learning process may open an entire new world of opportunities to explore.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2019, 01:07:48 PM »
That would make sense, but it also opens the can of worms of creating a specific offsides foul where the ball may remain live. In that case, why not make an offsides foul that applies to scrimmage plays as well, and reserve encroachment to the situations in the college rules where the play is shut down after a player is offsides (e.g. offsides and unabated to the quarterback, neutral zone infraction causing an offensive player to react, or a player being offsides and contacting an opponent.)?

I have thought about this some prior to this thread, NFHS now has rules in place to reduce the number of kicks/re-kicks.  For this reason it makes sense to make this a live ball foul let the play play out and either tack on or replay kick by choice of R. Had a play the other Friday, onside attempt, encroachment by K, kick never went 10 yards but we had to replay the kick because of the dead ball foul.  K essentially got a practice kick because of the encroachment. I would think this could be implemented without having to change encroachment for scrimmage downs...would only need to apply to free kicks.


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Offline Ia-Ref

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2019, 06:50:51 PM »
#1
A or K accidentally stepping oob and returning is IP 15 yards.  That is way to harsh.
Change to the NCAA or NFL way.  Whatever that is.
BEAN BAG THE SPOT OF REENTRY.  Taking the hat off exposes too many bald heads (not mine) and I would have to put that hat back on my head.

If trying to deceive, then keep it IP, 15 yards

#2
Personal foul and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls = 1st down

#3
Fouls by A behind the previous spot to be enforced from the previous spot.
"Because you can referee wrong, make a mistake, but what you can not do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules."   Dutch legend (soccer coach) Johan Cruyff

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2019, 10:08:51 PM »
I would endorse this, and add defensive pass interference to the list of fouls with an automatic first down.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2019, 10:37:26 PM »
I would endorse this, and add defensive pass interference to the list of fouls with an automatic first down.
  Keep making these suggestions and you guys will be using NCAA rules. :thumbup

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2019, 09:07:17 AM »
#1
A or K accidentally stepping oob and returning is IP 15 yards.  That is way to harsh.
Change to the NCAA or NFL way.  Whatever that is.
BEAN BAG THE SPOT OF REENTRY.  Taking the hat off exposes too many bald heads (not mine) and I would have to put that hat back on my head.

If trying to deceive, then keep it IP, 15 yards

#2
Personal foul and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls = 1st down

Thanks for your suggestions, Ia Ref, I would support #1 but some may worry about its complexity.
One of the considerations on potential rule changes is does it give either the offense or defense an advantage. Both #2 and #3 have been on the floor for a final vote, but have received the necessary 67% needed with the balance being a prime concern as many feel the offense has the edge now.
Rebuttals to #2:
Should PF & USC fouls be LOD if on A/K ?
NFHS awarded first downs now only on defenseless player - passer/kicker/holder/snapper. If all PF & USC fouls were AFD it would reduce the gravity of those.

Rebuttals to #3:
NFHS all-but-one principle is fair and simple.
An illegal act by  A behind LOS may have prevented loss.
QB sack when his receiver is held beyond LOS would still be from end of run.
Exceptions still needed for IG and fouls in A's end zone.
NFHS doesn't often welcome exceptions.

I oppose both #2 & #3.

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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2019, 09:35:32 AM »
  Keep making these suggestions and you guys will be using NCAA rules. :thumbup

That's the end goal  ;).

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2019, 10:54:19 AM »
  Keep making these suggestions and you guys will be using NCAA rules. :thumbup

"From your lips to God's ears" ... Nah, not exactly... I recognize that, in the interest of simplicity or appropriateness, there are several things NCAA does that don't need to enter the college game.

Complicated things that Fed is probably better off rejecting:

Iron cross substitutions (but if A is trying quick subs to gain an advantage, Fed should prohibit that on a you-know-it-when-you-see-it basis)
10-second runoffs
Turnovers on tries
Defensive holding may or may not carry an auto 1st

Complicated things that wouldn't be *too* complicated, but they don't add much and it's no big deal if Fed doesn't have them:

Returning kicks out of the end zone
Special DPI enforcement
Fourth down fumble rule
Forward fumble OOB rule
Free kick "fair catch = touchback" rule
Let the holder toss the ball from his knees

But with a year of NFHS under my belt, I continue to claim "Fed Hates Offense." High school athletes and offenses are not as high-powered as those in college. Every penalty yard on a high school drive is harder to overcome than a penalty yard on a college drive. Thus, if anything, penalties for holding should be less severe than NCAA, not more severe. As currently written, a single OH flag is much more of a drive-killer and game-outcome-affecting call than it is in college. Here are NCAA rules that fed should adopt:

Penalty enforcement behind the NZ. Possible language: "The enforcement spot for fouls committed against an opposing player in the field of play cannot be behind the previous spot, except after a change of possession" - this one line excludes IG, IFP, batting, and any foul in A's end zone, while covering OH, BBW, and fouls by B.
Live-ball defensive offside*
Free intentional grounding (a safety rule. It could be simpler than NCAA's e.g. it doesn't have to matter who throws the pass)
DPI auto 1st
Stepping OOB should render a receiver ineligible, not be as grave an offense as chop-blocking someone, I mean, this one is obvious

* Something has *got* to be done about defensive encroachment on extra-point attempts. I have seen more field goal rushers jump into the NZ this year than in *five years* of NCAA rules. It's being coached - "try to time the snap, kid, but if you jump the gun, NBD." The penalty isn't severe enough - you ice the kicker without expending a timeout, and half the time he declines the 1-1/2 yard penalty anyway. Maybe put that penalty on the kickoff instead? But that would entail a whole new rules exception. If defensive offside were a live-ball foul in general, that would largely solve this problem. It would sharply reduce the incentive to jump, because you would lose all ability to ice the kicker.


Finally, I understand there's an unbreakable Fed voting bloc that says "if you give auto 1st downs for B's PFs, then we want loss of down for A's PFs." I disagree with that, but if that's the way things are gonna be, then I greatly prefer the status quo to the alternative. I don't want loss of down for fouls against an opponent, no matter what.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 11:00:26 AM by Morningrise »

Offline sj

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Re: Radical Sensible Rule Change Proposals
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2019, 01:01:55 PM »
That would make sense, but it also opens the can of worms of creating a specific offsides foul where the ball may remain live. In that case, why not make an offsides foul that applies to scrimmage plays as well, and reserve encroachment to the situations in the college rules where the play is shut down after a player is offsides (e.g. offsides and unabated to the quarterback, neutral zone infraction causing an offensive player to react, or a player being offsides and contacting an opponent.)?

Your point is well taken. I agree that making defensive offside a live ball foul is more problematic if changed. However I don't think that any of those concerns would come into play when discussing making kicker offside a live ball foul. The reasoning for it would simply be to avoid the delay it causes when it happens. B's choice to tack it on or re-kick.