Author Topic: Causing Discouragement  (Read 8319 times)

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Offline SCHSref

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Causing Discouragement
« on: October 03, 2018, 12:39:13 PM »
The title is worded poorly, but something kept playing in my mind as I was reflecting on a game from 2 weeks ago. I should have thrown a flag and didn't. I didn't over think the play, I just kept the flag in my pocket.  The reason why is a statement I heard about seeing the whole play and then throwing the flag.  Good advice, but what if all you need is 90%?  Sounds ticky-tacky, but sometimes that is all you need to see.

I felt as though I was a better official 2 years ago from a standpoint of actually throwing the flag. It seems as though I am not throwing it enough. 

I say all that to say this: There are statements that can be made about you or to you that can discourage you from officiating properly.

One thing that I heard is: He likes to throw that flag!  Coming from a veteran official towards a younger official can discourage them from pulling out the flag when needed. I'd rather have someone coach a younger official than discourage them with disparaging comments.

If anyone else would like to share, please do so.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 01:15:43 PM »
Thanks for your involvement on Refstripes, SCHSref, by reading your posts it certainly seems that you want to do a good job and you want to do it right. Every year I get dozens of calls from coaches with complaints. I estimate that 90% of those are regarding fouls that WERE called that they felt should not have been. The 10% regarding calls that weren't made that they felt should have, has an easy explanation : " Coach, we tell our guys to be sure to see the whole play before ruling on it's legality. We stress 'see all of what you call'" Our justice system's motto of "...guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" can/should be applied by us.

A new official should not develop a quota of flags he needs to throw. Our chapter has several baseball umpires that have joined our ranks. Several have expressed a concern that they aren't called enough fouls. I try to explain that in baseball 90%+ of the calls are objective (fair/foul,  ball/strike, safe/out) and the subjective ones that are called much less (balk ,obstruction, interference). Looking at football is not a lot different focus and make the objective ones (inbounds/out, catch/or not, forward progress, etc.) but be ready for the subjective ones - the fouls.

Try not to be discouraged, SCHSref, and try not to rate yourself by the number of flags you throw. Let us know about your next games.
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Offline colorado_lines

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 01:55:00 PM »
I can understand how you feel on this and I'm sure that most of us have felt that at some point in our careers.  I think the "see the whole play" line is good advice in general and especially for younger officials as the natural tendency coming from the time when we were just fans is to call for a penalty as soon as you see something against the rules, even if you didn't catch the beginning of the action and this is a habit that needs to be stopped.  Block in the back is the perfect example for this.  There are of course exceptions to every bit of advice but I think this is solid.

I've had games where I felt I didn't throw the flag enough and others where I seemed to be throwing it too much, especially compared to the other guys on my crew.  But that is just how games are and now I tell myself that there is no quota and I just need to call what is there; some games will wear your arm out and others you barely even needed to get the flag out of your gear bag.  I've also realized that I call certain things more now, such as ineligible down field, because I've gotten better at spotting them and I call other things less, unsportsmanlike fouls on coaches, because I've gotten better at keeping things from reaching the point where the flag is needed.  I think the fact that you are thinking about this is great and the only way any of us can get better is to analyze what we are doing.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2018, 04:19:46 PM »
Wrestling with your calls, after the fact, is NOT a bad thing.  It's that self review, if honest and open minded, that builds toward increased consistency and uniform application for your future calls.  As has long been suggested, the longer you do, what we do, the more "snaps" you see, the more you assess and review (critically) your decisions, the slower the game gets allowing you to better understand what you're looking at.

An important concept to define, but ever difficult to understand and assess is "Advantage/Disadvantage".  Did the behavior you observe have an effect on the play you're observing to make a difference ( or was it safety related, or a "cheap shot" that might require attention regardless). 

Sometimes, actually, a Coach on a sideline, or even a spectator, may have a better view, may see something you didn't.  You can only react and respond to what you've actually observed, and what others see (or think they see) is simply immaterial.  That nagging self review and rethinking all the "coulda/shoulda" options and micro adjustments, is a good thing.  Hopefully your next game will benefit what you learned from your personal review of your last game.

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2018, 06:37:56 PM »
"An important concept to define, but ever difficult to understand and assess is "Advantage/Disadvantage".  Did the behavior you observe have an effect on the play you're observing to make a difference ( or was it safety related, or a "cheap shot" that might require attention regardless)."

I've had more than one instance where a coach complained about a no-call, sent me the film, and it was a marginal hold away from the play. A certain amount of criticism is of this nature. They don't want us calling those fouls against their team, but if they become frustrated with us, they will use those same fouls to try and ding us.

SC, if it makes you feel any better, I'm in that mood this week. I know for a fact I missed 3 fouls last week, and it's bugged me all this week. Try not to let it get to you. Play the next play and keep on keeping on. .

Offline BIG DON

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2018, 09:52:30 PM »
I may get blasted for this. But I tell my crew every pregame. No IWs tonight see the ball see the ball see the ball the read the writing on the ball.  That has worked for me for the last 3 year. No IW when I have been the white hat.  Can't not say that about my old white hat that had at least one IW in the last 5 seasons. (It was past his time 6 years ago you just can not make people give up the game you love, and that the biggest reason last years crew disbanded it forced him to retire). New crew this year is doing fantastic 2 off my old crew and 2 veterans that their crew disbanded do to retirement.

No about calling fouls. I tell them don't go looking for the squirrels in the forest you are after the grizzly bear, and you will not have to look to hard because the bear will find you! And it works really well. Have I have held onto my flag many of time when the little squirrel has ran by, they didn't effect the play, no what I consider safety type fouls chop blocks. Clips, PF face mask etc will draw flags.

It like the saying less is more it not about the quantity of fouls but the quality

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Offline SCHSref

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2018, 08:49:06 AM »
I may get blasted for this. But I tell my crew every pregame. No IWs tonight see the ball see the ball see the ball the read the writing on the ball.  That has worked for me for the last 3 year. No IW when I have been the white hat.  Can't not say that about my old white hat that had at least one IW in the last 5 seasons. (It was past his time 6 years ago you just can not make people give up the game you love, and that the biggest reason last years crew disbanded it forced him to retire). New crew this year is doing fantastic 2 off my old crew and 2 veterans that their crew disbanded do to retirement.

No about calling fouls. I tell them don't go looking for the squirrels in the forest you are after the grizzly bear, and you will not have to look to hard because the bear will find you! And it works really well. Have I have held onto my flag many of time when the little squirrel has ran by, they didn't effect the play, no what I consider safety type fouls chop blocks. Clips, PF face mask etc will draw flags.

It like the saying less is more it not about the quantity of fouls but the quality

I agree with both of your points. Thankfully, the IW was not mine. Usually, in our state, an IW has the chance to get you suspended for a week.

I'm also wondering about things NOT to say to younger officials to discourage them from calling the game properly. Personally, I try to get all safety fouls and USC.  I obviously don't call holding if it is not at the POA.  I will call it on B if they are holding a receiver while he is trying to run his route.
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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2018, 09:14:23 AM »
I obviously don't call holding if it is not at the POA.  I will call it on B if they are holding a receiver while he is trying to run his route.

SCHSref, regarding defensive holding on a receiver, this in one where you need to check the passer to see if he looks at that receiver.  If he never even looks in that direction, lay off.  If he looks that way, sees his receiver can't get open and looks elsewhere (or throws to him) there's your holding foul.  Not easy, I know.  But necessary.

Robert

Offline bawags06

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2018, 10:16:00 AM »
SCHSref, regarding defensive holding on a receiver, this in one where you need to check the passer to see if he looks at that receiver.  If he never even looks in that direction, lay off.  If he looks that way, sees his receiver can't get open and looks elsewhere (or throws to him) there's your holding foul.  Not easy, I know.  But necessary.

Robert

I'm sorry, my friend. I can't get behind this. I'm a wing on a 5-man crew. If I'm following my receiver down on a pass read, and I see him get held, the flag is coming out. I cannot risk looking back over my shoulder or turning away from my zone to check the passer's eyes/body language, etc. I might miss another receiver setting an illegal pick on the defender or a blindside hit--or more likely, the beginning of contact that may or may not be DPI/OPI. Now I won't know if it's either or neither because I wasn't looking when it started.

Your point about not flagging irrelevant fouls is valid, but I can't peek back to see if it's relevant or not in this particular example. On a pass play, all contact downfield is relevant, in my humble opinion, until the ball is clearly on its way to a different part of the field.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 10:19:24 AM by bawags06 »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2018, 10:31:00 AM »
I'm sorry, my friend. I can't get behind this. I'm a wing on a 5-man crew. If I'm following my receiver down on a pass read, and I see him get held, the flag is coming out. I cannot risk looking back over my shoulder or turning away from my zone to check the passer's eyes/body language, etc. I might miss another receiver setting an illegal pick on the defender or a blindside hit--or more likely, the beginning of contact that may or may not be DPI/OPI. Now I won't know if it's either or neither because I wasn't looking when it started.

Your point about not flagging irrelevant fouls is valid, but I can't peek back to see if it's relevant or not in this particular example. On a pass play, all contact downfield is relevant, in my humble opinion, until the ball is clearly on its way to a different part of the field.

OK, don't.  I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink.
Robert

Offline bawags06

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2018, 11:15:55 AM »
OK, don't.  I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink.
Robert
A little harsh, but I'll continue the conversation respectfully and in good faith. Let's assume I do peek back and the passer is looking somewhere else, so I keep the flag in my pocket and I turn back to my receiver. How do you know the passer isn't turning to that receiver now too-- a receiver who is now three steps behind where he would have been but for the hold?

If your example had been DPI on the opposite side of the field, I'd be with you. I feel that defensive holding on a pass read will be relevant to the play in at least 90 percent of situations--depending on the passer's ability to go through his progressions quickly.

I'm a 4th year official, and I readily agree that I have a great deal to learn. If I'm wrong on this, I would like to know that.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2018, 11:35:43 AM »
A little harsh, but I'll continue the conversation respectfully and in good faith. Let's assume I do peek back and the passer is looking somewhere else, so I keep the flag in my pocket and I turn back to my receiver. How do you know the passer isn't turning to that receiver now too-- a receiver who is now three steps behind where he would have been but for the hold?

If your example had been DPI on the opposite side of the field, I'd be with you. I feel that defensive holding on a pass read will be relevant to the play in at least 90 percent of situations--depending on the passer's ability to go through his progressions quickly.

I'm a 4th year official, and I readily agree that I have a great deal to learn. If I'm wrong on this, I would like to know that.

bawags06,
As I mentioned, this isn't easy for a crew of 5 - I'll grant you that.  But, it can be done.  The "look" by the passer that I am talking about will usually occur very quickly after the snap.  As soon as you see that, pick up your receiver and see what is happening to him.  If he is being held, bingo - holding.  If the QB doesn't look that way, you've got nothing, unless it is a personal foul (facemask, striking, etc.).  Yes, some QBs are good enough to "look off" the primary receiver and then turn to throw to him.  You just have to learn how to scan the action - yes, with quick peeks.  There's is only 5 of you, so they can not expect any more from you.  But calling a non-safety foul on action that has no bearing on the play is something we should strive to avoid.

You can do it.

Robert 

Offline Etref

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2018, 11:59:40 AM »
How do you know the passer isn't turning to that receiver now too-- a receiver who is now three steps behind where he would have been but for the hold?


I think that is Robert’s point. YOU DON’T know. On any foul if you don’t know, don’t throw the flag.

In your example, you say when you see him held you throw the flag. If you are not seeing the whole play, the QB may be on a designed run to the opposite side of the field. Now what do you do??
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Offline FLAHL

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2018, 12:21:47 PM »
The big boys in the NFL have more than a few defensive holding flags away from the pass. Even with 7 of them, they’re not looking to see where the passer is looking. 

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2018, 12:25:57 PM »
I think that is Robert’s point. YOU DON’T know. On any foul if you don’t know, don’t throw the flag.

In your example, you say when you see him held you throw the flag. If you are not seeing the whole play, the QB may be on a designed run to the opposite side of the field. Now what do you do??

The QB could also be looking at that receiver, but saw he's not open (because unbenownst to him he was held), so he has to run since nobody is open. That's the lamest thing about the NFHS penalty - if it's a hold that prevents the throw, we don't throw it. The QB doesn't always know his receiver is held. He just sees him as not open, and has to decide what to do at that point.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2018, 01:16:13 PM »
The big boys in the NFL have more than a few defensive holding flags away from the pass. Even with 7 of them, they’re not looking to see where the passer is looking.

The heck they aren't.  During my days in FBS, those are the guys that taught me to check the passer, to make sure he is at least looking in that direction.  Much easier to do as a F or S, yes, since all of that is well in front.  But, the Hs and Ls I worked with got the job done, too.  And, at least three of those are now "big boys."  If they are throwing defensive holding, then the passer looked that way, even if ever so briefly.

I can't help any more on this subject.  Take my experience-based advice, or not.  Your choice.

Robert

Offline UTchad

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2018, 01:58:58 PM »
I don't know if this good logic or not, but I had a very respected now retired official in our state tell me, remember that football is different than basketball. You can always tell yourself you have a flag and wait to throw it... meaning throw it late. So as a LJ or HL in a 5 man crew, if I see my receiver get held as he is running his route, I will glance back to the QB, based off what I read at that point I will then decide if I am throwing the flag. I would argue the same principle applies to a OL hold away from the play. A quick run up to the defender after the play is over and saying. HEY #24 I SAW THAT HOLD, I'M GETTING YOU NEXT TIME. That usually corrects the issue.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2018, 02:14:54 PM »
The heck they aren't.  During my days in FBS, those are the guys that taught me to check the passer, to make sure he is at least looking in that direction.  Much easier to do as a F or S, yes, since all of that is well in front.  But, the Hs and Ls I worked with got the job done, too.  And, at least three of those are now "big boys."  If they are throwing defensive holding, then the passer looked that way, even if ever so briefly.

I can't help any more on this subject.  Take my experience-based advice, or not.  Your choice.

Robert
I for one appreciate and respect your experience laden advice. However, with all the other philosophical differences between college and NFHS, both in interpretation and application, I’m not sure this is a mechanic supported by the NFHS. I could be wrong, but the “uncatachable” philosophy comes to my mind. Not in specific application to this situation but generally speaking. If we can’t consider whether the pass was catchable before throwing a DPI, then I don’t see how we can ignore the hold just because the QB didn’t look at the receiver.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2018, 02:23:20 PM »
Another thought: this mechanic is universally accepted at the college level because both coaches and officials have been taught the same thing. We have no such training where I live.


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Offline bawags06

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2018, 02:44:03 PM »
I could be wrong, but the “uncatachable” philosophy comes to my mind. Not in specific application to this situation but generally speaking. If we can’t consider whether the pass was catchable before throwing a DPI, then I don’t see how we can ignore the hold just because the QB didn’t look at the receiver.
Rule 7-5-11c supports considering the direction of the pass for DPI:
    "ART 11... It is not forward-pass interference if:
     ...
     c. Contact by B is obviously away from the direction of the pass."

To my mind, defensive holding is a different animal. I can understand the inclination to understand the whole field if possible, but possible and realistic are often two different things.

I'm also quite certain that our observer/reviewer would ding me for not flagging the defensive hold regardless of whether or not I had seen the quarterback looking. Call that a systemic failure, if you will, but those are the conditions I have to work under.

Finally, Robert, I meant no disrespect to your experience or knowledge of the game. This board is for learning and sharing with each other, and I appreciate your input.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 02:49:04 PM by bawags06 »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2018, 02:54:03 PM »
The big boys in the NFL have more than a few defensive holding flags away from the pass. Even with 7 of them, they’re not looking to see where the passer is looking. 

I stand corrected.  Just checked with a college official who told me that deep wings do look at the passer and don’t call the hold if the passer doesn’t look in that direction.  I guess those other-side-of-the-field defensive holding calls in the NFL won’t bother me as much now.

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2018, 03:00:55 PM »
Rule 7-5-11c supports considering the direction of the pass for DPI:
    "ART 11... It is not forward-pass interference if:
     ...
     c. Contact by B is obviously away from the direction of the pass."

To my mind, defensive holding is a different animal. I can understand the inclination to understand the whole field if possible, but possible and realistic are often two different things.

I'm also quite certain that our observer/reviewer would ding me for not flagging the defensive hold regardless of whether or not I had seen the quarterback looking. Call that a systemic failure, if you will, but those are the conditions I have to work under.

Finally, Robert, I meant no disrespect to your experience or knowledge of the game. This board is for learning and sharing with each other, and I appreciate your input.
Thanks for quoting that. IMO, that is a major contradiction in rule philosophy. We can’t factor in a pass 20ft over the head of a receiver, intended or not, but we are supposed to ignore contact away from the direction of the pass. IMO, we need to pick one or the other.


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Offline bawags06

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2018, 03:09:46 PM »
I couldn't agree more that it is a contradiction... on the same foul. The contact either hinders a catch or it doesn't.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2018, 03:38:02 PM »
Exactly. For the record- our crew employs the advantage philosophy. We throw safety fouls anywhere and all fouls we see that impact or potentially impact the play. I just wish everybody (coaches and officials) could get on the same page in that regard.

Instead, what we often get is an irate coach who sees his player get held and turns in a negative report without considering whether the hold or other foul impacted the play. That plus the fact that many of the coaches we encounter on Friday nights know just enough rulebook to be embarrassing.

Case in point:
Got an evaluation back from 2 weeks ago. Scored a 2 on a 5 scale. His reasonings:
1. Refused to allow my injured player back into the game even though I burned a TO.

2. Missed a boatload of holds against the other team while calling phantom holds on us.

3. Apparently this crew didn’t get the memo that faceguarding is no longer a foul. (Defender put his hands up and literally ran over the receiver knocking him to the ground.)

4. Failed to call offensive pass interference on the game winning TD play. They ran a pick and the crew didn’t call it. ( the WR ran a deep crossing route, the TE ran a post, and the RB ran a wheel route up the sideline. No contact with any of the three at any point during the down. I saw the film. It was as clean as I have ever seen. Yet he interpreted that as a pick.



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Offline Etref

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Re: Causing Discouragement
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2018, 04:19:07 PM »
 


Where is the eating crow emoji?


 :bOW
Closest thing we have!
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