Author Topic: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline fitz13

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3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« on: July 16, 2022, 03:44:45 PM »
 Team B punt receiver catches and downs a punt in his own end zone. During the kick B55 blocks below the waist at the B-14.

A. 1st and 10 from the B-7

B.1st and 10 from the B-10


Online dammitbobby

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2022, 06:41:07 PM »
A, 1/10 from B7.  The PSK spot is the end of the kick which is the B-20, and the spot of the foul is the B-14. The foul occurred behind the basic spot, so will be enforced from the spot of the foul.

Offline copedaddy

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2022, 05:32:24 AM »
What about this little wrinkle.
Team B punt receiver catches and downs a punt in his own end zone. During the kick B55 holds gunner A12 at the B-14.

a) B 1/10 at the B-7

b)  A 1/10 at the previous spot plus ten yards.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2022, 07:39:47 AM »
What about this little wrinkle.
Team B punt receiver catches and downs a punt in his own end zone. During the kick B55 holds gunner A12 at the B-14.

a) B 1/10 at the B-7

b)  A 1/10 at the previous spot plus ten yards.

When PSK applies, previous spot enforcement is not an option. 10-2-3-b notes: "If these conditions are all met, the penalty is enforced according to the Three-And-One Principle. Team B is taken as the team in possession with the postscrimmage kick spot as the basic spot." There is no allowance for penalizing at the previous spot.
AR 10-2-3-I, AR 10-2-3-V, and AR 10-2-3-VI reinforce this rule.
PSK, or decline and accept the result of the down.

Oh, and also note that PSK DOES qualify for the "clean hands" exception. If both teams foul during the down, Team B can elect to refuse offsetting fouls by declining the penalty for Team A's foul, and them Team A gets to accept (or decline) Team B's penalty, which would be penalized per PSK enforcement. Yeah, Team B COULD elect to allow the fouls to offset and have the down repeated at the previous spot. These options need to be explained carefully and thoroughly with both head coaches, so they can make the best choices for their teams.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 08:12:02 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2022, 09:24:36 AM »
So, following up with PSK qualifying for the "clean hands" exception, try this:

4/3, A-32, 6:30 (4), A=21, B=20. A11's punt is in the air when unblocked A88 runs out of bounds, then returns into the field of play. The ball lands on the ground, and bounds toward B's goal line. B99 pulls A1 to the ground at the B-40, and B80 recovers the previously untouched kick at the B-30. Attempting to elude defenders, B80 retreats the B-25, where he fumbles the ball which is muffed by several players attempting to recover it, and it travels out of bounds at the B-15.

Hmmm. What happens now? Will Team B elect to refuse offsetting fouls to keep the ball (and not risk repeating the down with, perhaps, Team A advancing for a first down)? If Team B refuses offsetting fouls (by declining Team A's penalty), Team A would then obviously decline Team B's penalty, and accept the result of the down, i.e., B,1/10, B-15. Can Team B then change their mind and elect offsetting fouls and have the down repeated?
No. Once a penalty decision is made by a team, that decision is final, and may not be changed. In this case, Team B first has the choice to refuse offsetting fouls (by declining the penalty for Team A's Illegal Return foul) and keep the ball, or they can elect offsetting fouls and repeat the down. If Team B refuses offsetting fouls, then, Team A gets the choice to accept or decline the 10-yard penalty for B's holding foul (which is PSK enforcement, and would be penalized at the end of the kick (B-30), taking the ball to the B-20, if accepted). Since the result of the down is B's ball at the B-15, Team A would obviously decline the penalty.
B, 1/10, B-15.

Now, during our explanation of the options to the Team B coach, we should certainly advise him that, if he elects to keep the ball, he will be putting it in play at the B-15 (rather than the B-20). That may make all the difference in the world to him, and let him make the decision to accept offsetting fouls, and have the down repeated, hoping to achieve better field position, at the risk of Team A advancing for a first down.

In a somewhat complex situation as this, we can't be in a hurry. As a crew, we need to understand ALL options among ourselves, and then explain those to the coaches, before either make a choice. While I would hope that every member of the crew fully and thoroughly understand penalty enforcement, there is usually one guy - maybe not the Referee - that knows penalty enforcement to this level. He needs to step up and make sure the crew knows what to explain to the coaches, so they make the best choice for their team, and they can't blame us for letting them make a bad choice.

Actually had a situation like this happen once. At Fresno State, Fresno was Team B. With the result of the down, they would have put the ball in play at the B-15. Coach, somewhat reasonably, thought they could get better field position if they repeated the down. The other team punted, again, and got a great kick, and tackled the receiver at the B-10.

Things don't always work out. But we did our due diligence, and it was all on him.

Easy peasy. ;) 

 


Online dammitbobby

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2022, 05:11:22 PM »
When PSK applies, previous spot enforcement is not an option. 10-2-3-b notes: "If these conditions are all met, the penalty is enforced according to the Three-And-One Principle. Team B is taken as the team in possession with the postscrimmage kick spot as the basic spot." There is no allowance for penalizing at the previous spot.
AR 10-2-3-I, AR 10-2-3-V, and AR 10-2-3-VI reinforce this rule.
PSK, or decline and accept the result of the down.

Oh, and also note that PSK DOES qualify for the "clean hands" exception. If both teams foul during the down, Team B can elect to refuse offsetting fouls by declining the penalty for Team A's foul, and them Team A gets to accept (or decline) Team B's penalty, which would be penalized per PSK enforcement. Yeah, Team B COULD elect to allow the fouls to offset and have the down repeated at the previous spot. These options need to be explained carefully and thoroughly with both head coaches, so they can make the best choices for their teams.

To add on to this (and to address what I suspect the intent behind the question was), yes, there was a change this year for defensive holding to an automatic first down.  However, the penalty statement for 9-3-4-c through e reads:

PENALTY [c-e]—10 yards plus automatic first down if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S42]. 

By my understanding, giving A the first down would be in conflict with the PSK enforcement, which (by rule, as Elvis pointed out), takes precedence.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2022, 05:19:37 PM »
To add on to this (and to address what I suspect the intent behind the question was), yes, there was a change this year for defensive holding to an automatic first down.  However, the penalty statement for 9-3-4-c through e reads:

PENALTY [c-e]—10 yards plus automatic first down if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S42]. 

By my understanding, giving A the first down would be in conflict with the PSK enforcement, which (by rule, as Elvis pointed out), takes precedence.

That would be correct.

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2022, 05:28:39 PM »
It’s even simpler than that. Because PSK applies, it is treated as if Team B was in possession at the time of the foul. So this holding is no longer defensive holding, it’s offensive holding. And obviously offensive holding never includes an auto first.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2022, 05:49:34 PM »
It’s even simpler than that. Because PSK applies, it is treated as if Team B was in possession at the time of the foul. So this holding is no longer defensive holding, it’s offensive holding. And obviously offensive holding never includes an auto first.

And that is even more correct.

Offline fitz13

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2022, 10:27:42 PM »
WOW this thread got highjacked.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: 3 and 1 punt play/touchback
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2022, 12:19:52 AM »
WOW this thread got highjacked.

The simple answer to your question is A.