Author Topic: Scrimmage Kick Question  (Read 363 times)

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Offline fudilligas

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Scrimmage Kick Question
« on: August 04, 2022, 09:42:53 PM »
Our crew is having a discussion on what constitutes the kick going beyond the expanded NZ and do we rule a TD for K or is it first touching with R getting the ball at the 2 yd line

4th and goal...Team K's field goal attempt from the R-11 is blocked.  In an attempt to recover the loose ball behind the line, R55 muffs the ball to the R-2.  K22 picks up the loose ball at the R-2 and runs into the end zone

How picky are we going to get in this situation....once the ball is on the 2 yd line can we say that is some part of the ball is beyond the expanded NZ and rule first touching


Online HLinNC

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2022, 06:27:45 AM »
The status of the ball is still a kick.  K22 can't pick it up and run it into the end zone as he didn't recover it in or behind NZ. The ball is dead when he possessed it at the R2.
6-4-5

K failed to score so it's R's ball at the R2.

Offline hef333

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2022, 06:59:28 AM »
The key wording there is "muff"....a kick is a kick is a kick until it is possessed...HL nailed it.


Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2022, 07:43:23 AM »
Confused by the original ball spot here "4th and goal from the _____ yard line".  Should that be the 11 yard line or was the ball actually kicked at the 11 and blocked there, near the kicker, with the snap coming from from the 1 or 2?

If it was snapped from the 11 the result of this play is very different than if is was snapped from the 1 or 2.
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2022, 02:53:09 PM »
Seconding NVFOA's confusion on the actual line of scrimmage here, however I think I see the rule quirk you're poking at here.

First touching, as defined in 2-12-2 or 6-2-5, requires that the touching be beyond the expanded neutral zone. K can recover/advance if they do so in (or behind) the regular neutral zone. Therefore, there's a two yard band (the expansion of the neutral zone) where touching by K can be ignored, but may not explicitly covered by rule.

I would argue that, as 6-2-6 states that touching of a low scrimmage kick by K or R in the expanded neutral zone is ignored, the grounded, rolling ball with the status of a kick is not a "low kick" that implies it being airborne directly off of a foot. Therefore, the touching is NOT ignored and it would be considered first touching. If R had touched the ball at the 2 first, that touching would also similarly not be ignored and K would be eligible to recover the ball (6-2-4 only requires the contact by R to be beyond the regular neutral zone, not expanded).

In any case, if K recovers a ball in the expanded neutral zone, beyond the regular neutral zone, they cannot advance.

Offline fudilligas

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2022, 08:03:40 PM »
Confused by the original ball spot here "4th and goal from the _____ yard line".  Should that be the 11 yard line or was the ball actually kicked at the 11 and blocked there, near the kicker, with the snap coming from from the 1 or 2?

If it was snapped from the 11 the result of this play is very different than if is was snapped from the 1 or 2.

my fault gentlemen,.....ball snapped from the R-4

we had one member of the crew explaining to us that the ball did not go beyond the 2 yd line....the consensus of the crew was R ball at the 2....thanks to all

Online refjeff

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2022, 06:31:08 AM »
There are plenty of times we have to spit hairs.

For me, "beyond the expanded neutral zone" means all of it, not part of it.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2022, 11:28:55 AM »
There are plenty of times we have to spit hairs.

For me, "beyond the expanded neutral zone" means all of it, not part of it.

I would disagree with this. When the offense is advancing the ball, we only ever consider if the foremost point of the ball crosses a line -- consider awarding a new series or a touchdown. For consistency sake, if you're going to split hairs over the expanded neutral zone, then "beyond" should only consider the foremost point of the ball, not the entirety of the ball.

Online refjeff

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2022, 07:03:04 PM »
I would disagree with this. When the offense is advancing the ball, we only ever consider if the foremost point of the ball crosses a line -- consider awarding a new series or a touchdown. For consistency sake, if you're going to split hairs over the expanded neutral zone, then "beyond" should only consider the foremost point of the ball, not the entirety of the ball.
Maybe.

If A is backed up in front of their own endzone and gets tackled for a loss so that the foremost point of the ball is in the field of play but part of the ball rests on the goalline it is a safety.  At least in this case all of the ball has to get out of the zone.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2022, 11:05:50 AM »
Maybe.

If A is backed up in front of their own endzone and gets tackled for a loss so that the foremost point of the ball is in the field of play but part of the ball rests on the goalline it is a safety.  At least in this case all of the ball has to get out of the zone.

I'm not sure about that?  By rule the "spot" is the most forward part of the ball based on the direction that the team is possession is heading.  We have always placed the ball outside of the EZ if the most forward part of the ball is in fact outside the goal line when the play is blown dead.
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2022, 01:23:48 PM »
I'm not sure about that?  By rule the "spot" is the most forward part of the ball based on the direction that the team is possession is heading.  We have always placed the ball outside of the EZ if the most forward part of the ball is in fact outside the goal line when the play is blown dead.

5-3-4 is going to disagree with you there.

A ball touching the goal-line plane, when it becomes dead is in the end zone, even though it is moving away from the nearer end line and has its foremost point in the field of play

However, 5-3-4 is the noted exception to 2-41-3. In any other scenario, the dead-ball spot is under the foremost point of the ball when it becomes dead by rule at any other spot on the field.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Scrimmage Kick Question
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2022, 09:21:16 AM »
5-3-4 is going to disagree with you there.

A ball touching the goal-line plane, when it becomes dead is in the end zone, even though it is moving away from the nearer end line and has its foremost point in the field of play

However, 5-3-4 is the noted exception to 2-41-3. In any other scenario, the dead-ball spot is under the foremost point of the ball when it becomes dead by rule at any other spot on the field.

As my mentor told me some 25 +/- years ago, never to old to learn!
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel