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Author Topic: After try, score may be 6-1  (Read 28818 times)

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ECILLJ

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2012, 11:25:51 AM »
The Case Book and the Rule book do not jive on this play. This thread has hashed this out and we still do not have a conclusion of what is correct. Hopefully, none of us ever actually see a try go dead in A's end zone.

A lot of us are going to be working wet weather this weekend. Good luck and be careful.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2012, 12:27:17 PM »
Here's the issue: no one knows where case 8.3.3 came from.  Two people I know on the rules committee dont know where it came from.  SOMEONE in the FED office in Indinapolis wrote this play (it's new this year), and yet there doesn't appear to be any rules support for it.  There was no rule change this year that would have suddenly made this valid.

So yes, there is a case play that supports it.  But the Rules Committee doesn't support it.  On the infinitesimal chance you have a safety by A on a try, feel free to rule however you want, and there is support for your side.

When it happens, send video, because in the mean time, I'm still in the "It'll never happen" camp.
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mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2012, 12:37:05 PM »
Quote from: Atlanta Blue on August 30, 2012, 12:27:17 PM
When it happens, send video, because in the mean time, I'm still in the "It'll never happen" camp.
Well that's just great. Now it'll happen in MY games this weekend. Thanks, AB, and I'll get you for that!
 ;D
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2012, 01:23:23 PM »
Quote from: Atlanta Blue on August 30, 2012, 12:27:17 PM
When it happens, send video, because in the mean time, I'm still in the "It'll never happen" camp.

FUTURE POSSIBILITY OF New York State High School Championship 2012 with this 'rule':

Radio announcer:
'Only 2 seconds left on the clock. Syracuse leads 15-10. Rochester with the ball on the 5 yard line. Shotgun snap. Rochester quarterback throws the ball in the endzone. Touchdown! Rochester wins! The score is 16-15 Rochester! What a fantastic ending! The crowd is going crazy! What is this? The referees are making Rochester line up for the extra point? Seriously now - the game is over. What is up with these referees? They are penalizing the coach and all the players that ran on the field with 4 unsportsmanlike celebration flags. The game is over - what are you doing zebras?

Here is the extra point snap, after 60 yards of penalties, from Rochester's own 38 yard line. Rochester is just going to kneel on the ball. Wow! The quarterback muffs the snap - tries to pick it up, and the ball is muffed off his knee and goes way back to the 20. The senseless extra point looks to be over. Wait - the referees are still allowing the play to go on.... the ball is muffed at the 5 by the defense, and the ball goes out through the back of the end zone. The referees are awarding a SAFETY for Syracuse. Syracuse ties the score 16-16. Something is seriously wrong with the referees on that play. In high school, the defense cannot score on an extra point! The referees are clueless.

The Rochester coach is laughing. He ignores the referees and walks off the field saying 'We won - we're not playing overtime - you're dead wrong referees.'

Syracuse wins the game by forfeit. Post game coming up.'

« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 03:32:02 PM by bbeagle »
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mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2012, 01:51:13 PM »
You made that up, right? The ruling is incorrect:

"... the ball is muffed at the 5 by the defense, and the ball goes out through the back of the end zone."

If B forces the ball across A's GL and the ball becomes dead, that would be a touchback, not a safety.

The play you want to worry about — the ONLY way B can score during a try according to the case book — is the one where A carries the ball into A's EZ and is tackled there. If B recovers the ball anywhere, that ends the try.
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Offline maybrefguy

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2012, 02:19:45 PM »
Sorry to bring all this up again - I've enjoyed the exchange though.  We used to pregame about this situation where A scores the 1 point safety.  I cannot imagine it really happening where B scores.  I'm not sure how I'd rule there, but I don't think it will happen.  Thanks for your help!
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2012, 02:52:25 PM »
Quote from: mbyron on August 30, 2012, 01:51:13 PM
The play you want to worry about — the ONLY way B can score during a try according to the case book — is the one where A carries the ball into A's EZ and is tackled there. If B recovers the ball anywhere, that ends the try.

If this CB play is correct (and I'm betting heavily that it is not), then B should also score one point if A merely forces the ball into it's own EZ and falls on it there, or it goes OOB behind the GL.

If this were to happen in my game, I would  ^no & line up for the ensuing KO.
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2012, 03:00:49 PM »
Quote from: mbyron on August 30, 2012, 01:51:13 PM

"... the ball is muffed at the 5 by the defense, and the ball goes out through the back of the end zone."

If B forces the ball across A's GL and the ball becomes dead, that would be a touchback, not a safety.


A muff is NOT a force. B did not force the ball across the goal-line, A's fumble did.

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Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2012, 03:01:19 PM »
Quote from: bama_stripes on August 30, 2012, 02:52:25 PM
If this were to happen in my game, I would  ^no & line up for the ensuing KO.

I agree. I'd do the same.
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mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2012, 07:25:17 PM »
Quote from: bbeagle on August 30, 2012, 03:00:49 PM
A muff is NOT a force. B did not force the ball across the goal-line, A's fumble did.
Muffing a grounded fumble is certainly a new force. 2-13-1: "After a fumble, kick or backward
pass has been grounded, a new force may result from a bat, an illegal kick or a muff."
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mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2012, 07:28:01 PM »
Quote from: bama_stripes on August 30, 2012, 02:52:25 PM
If this CB play is correct (and I'm betting heavily that it is not), then B should also score one point if A merely forces the ball into it's own EZ and falls on it there, or it goes OOB behind the GL.

True: the case play says "this is the only way B can score during a try," and by "this" I agree we should take it to mean that A forces the ball into their own EZ and the ball becomes dead without B gaining possession (which would end the try).
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2012, 07:03:11 AM »
Quote from: mbyron on August 30, 2012, 07:25:17 PM
Muffing a grounded fumble is certainly a new force. 2-13-1: "After a fumble, kick or backward
pass has been grounded, a new force may result from a bat, an illegal kick or a muff."

You seem to contradict yourself.

A muff is not CERTAINLY a new force. It MAY BE a new force.

If the ball is going full speed for the end line, and B tries to get it but muffs it, it's our determination (as officials) whether this is a new force or not. If we feel the ball might have gone over the end line without this muff, then it's NOT a new force, if we feel that the ball would NOT have gone over the end line without the muff, then it IS a new force.

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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2012, 08:01:04 AM »
Quote from: bbeagle on August 31, 2012, 07:03:11 AM
You seem to contradict yourself.

A muff is not CERTAINLY a new force. It MAY BE a new force.

If the ball is going full speed for the end line, and B tries to get it but muffs it, it's our determination (as officials) whether this is a new force or not. If we feel the ball might have gone over the end line without this muff, then it's NOT a new force, if we feel that the ball would NOT have gone over the end line without the muff, then it IS a new force.

Speaking of contradictions, you said, "A muff is NOT a force."

As others have pointed out, yes, a muff CAN BE a new force.
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2012, 08:16:37 AM »
Quote from: Atlanta Blue on August 31, 2012, 08:01:04 AM
Speaking of contradictions, you said, "A muff is NOT a force."

As others have pointed out, yes, a muff CAN BE a new force.

Hahaha... You're right. I did.

I meant (and didn't specifically say) that IN THAT PLAY the muff was not a new force. I should have rewritten that play to say that in trying to recover the fumble A muffed it out the back of the endzone. Then we wouldn't have this discussion.  hEaDbAnG


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Offline Curious

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2012, 10:35:16 AM »
Enough of this unlikely play and dubious Case Book interpretation!!!!

We must have more important things to talk about....
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Offline VALJ

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2012, 03:11:40 PM »
Quote from: bbeagle on August 30, 2012, 01:23:23 PM
FUTURE POSSIBILITY OF New York State High School Championship 2012 with this 'rule':

Radio announcer:
'Only 2 seconds left on the clock. Syracuse leads 15-10. Rochester with the ball on the 5 yard line. Shotgun snap. Rochester quarterback throws the ball in the endzone. Touchdown! Rochester wins! The score is 16-15 Rochester! What a fantastic ending! The crowd is going crazy! What is this? The referees are making Rochester line up for the extra point? Seriously now - the game is over. What is up with these referees? They are penalizing the coach and all the players that ran on the field with 4 unsportsmanlike celebration flags. The game is over - what are you doing zebras?

Here is the extra point snap, after 60 yards of penalties, from Rochester's own 38 yard line. Rochester is just going to kneel on the ball. Wow! The quarterback muffs the snap - tries to pick it up, and the ball is muffed off his knee and goes way back to the 20. The senseless extra point looks to be over. Wait - the referees are still allowing the play to go on.... the ball is muffed at the 5 by the defense, and the ball goes out through the back of the end zone. The referees are awarding a SAFETY for Syracuse. Syracuse ties the score 16-16. Something is seriously wrong with the referees on that play. In high school, the defense cannot score on an extra point! The referees are clueless.

The Rochester coach is laughing. He ignores the referees and walks off the field saying 'We won - we're not playing overtime - you're dead wrong referees.'

Syracuse wins the game by forfeit. Post game coming up.'

Then New York State points out 3-3-3-d, awards the game to Rochester, and that crew's assoctiation next sees a state title game when pigs get wings.  :)
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