Author Topic: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules  (Read 13062 times)

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2011, 02:47:41 PM »
Because your post said he could "TURN the ball, but nothing else".  He IS allowed something else, he can LIFT the ball as well.

If you allow the lift, fine no problem, we are on the same page.  But I took it from your post that he could turn ONLY, and not lift it to do so.

We had one umpire this year that flagged our left handed snapper (on a try) because he rolled the ball to get the laces to the proper side.  His explanation was he "changed the location of the ball".  Of course, I was later informed by a member of his association that he was "teaching us a lesson" because of an earlier incident where we showed we were right and he was wrong on a rule (during that conference, the R even said, "Wow, I learned something tonight"). A real FU call.  Class act.

I keep telling you that you guys use the wrong association. When will you listen to me? ;D

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2011, 03:18:01 PM »
What happened to common sense and impact on the play? Yes, by rule it may be a foul, but is that a call you would be proud of?

If the snapper does what was posted earlier and moves it forward, then yes, that changes things. If the snapper lifts, rotates, (or folds, spindles or mutilates for that matter) the ball when a snap is not imminent and gains no advantage in doing so - except perhaps a better grip on the ball, what impact does that have?

Well, I guess mutilating would have an impact, but other than that, come on. Very rarely, if at all, is any advantage gained in doing that.

In the original post, it sounded as if the snapper left the huddle, but the rest of the team was still in it. The snap is not imminent, so any intent to deceive is lacking, Why look for trouble?

For what it's worth, I will ask at the beginning of the game how they want the laces, but if I forget, I have no problem with him making the adjustment.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2011, 10:18:56 PM »
It's really no big deal to remember how each team's snapper wants to find the ball ...  When you remember to place the ball the way he wants, it makes for a smooth evening/afternoon.

I *LIKE* this. Consider it put into my bag of tricks, if I remember.

Offline scott68111

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2011, 08:25:25 AM »
As a former center and 15 years as an U, I would always place the ball with the laces straight up, let the snapper rotate the ball as he needs it for the type of play they are going to run.  On a regular snap to the QB, I had the laces away from my fingers so they were ready for the QB to grip.  On a shotgun/deep snap, I gripped the laces. So the latitude U's gave me as a player to place the ball as I needed it (not wanted it) was appreciated.  I was always very aware to just spin the ball, trying not to lift it  and definitely not moving it forward.  In almost 8 yrs of snapping the ball, I never had a foul called because I moved the ball prior to the rest of the team getting to the LOS.

So when I moved to the other side, I gave my snappers the same latitude I had as a player.  No advantage gained by lifting it an inch or two or rotating it or even rolling it somewhat.  If I noticed a snapper move the ball forward, I would talk to him and 99% of the time, no more problems.  And I DARN sure am not going to talk to the snapper as he comes to the line, he will probably forget the snapcount, based on personal experience.

Just another point we as officials do not want to be too good.  Nonsafety related, no one but the center and U will know what happened, HECK most of the time a center comes to the line, the D isn't even in its set as they are waiting to see what formation the O comes out in.  No advantage gained, no one trying to cheat, no aggrieved parties and no one knows what he did,  just one player trying to get a grip on the ball so he can start the madness.     

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2011, 09:54:22 AM »
No advantage gained by lifting it an inch or two or rotating it or even rolling it somewhat.  

Or 4" or 6" or 2'.  The rule specifically ALLOWS the snapper to lift the ball in order to rotate it.  There is no distance limit.  If he picks it up, rotates it while keeping the long axis parallel to the sideline, and puts it back down, leave him alone!

Offline scott68111

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2011, 03:22:23 PM »
AB,  Exactly, have never put a limit on it, it is actually a nonissue as far as i am concerned, never had it called on me and never called it on a snapper.  Alot more important things to concern myself with before the snap.  never had a coach say anything about it either one way or the other.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2011, 09:29:17 PM »
Somehow, the WH figured that we needed to give the offense another crack at third down, from a distance that the center couldn't make a first down before he snapped the ball.

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 04:01:32 PM »
On this subject after reading the NCAA rules 7-1-3 & 7-1-4 can the snapper rotate the ball on its axis ?
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takemeaway10

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2011, 09:40:49 AM »
As long as he doesn't do so in a jerky, "snap-like "motion.

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 02:57:24 PM »
Here's the thing, 7-1-4-b-2 states
Quote
The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders or buttocks

there is no exception for "As long as he doesn't do so in a jerky, "snap-like "motion." and the word "Rotate" does not appear in the rule book.

So is this an unwritten but accepted practice ?
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 06:35:59 PM »
the word "Rotate" does not appear in the rule book.

Sure it does, in 7-1-2:

The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate
end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.

He can lift the ball, he can rotate it on it's long axis, he just flip it end for end.

Not just an accepted practice, it's a rule.

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2011, 12:56:58 AM »
Thx AB but is that NFHS rules isn't it ? I'm referring to NCAA.
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2011, 05:48:04 AM »
Thx AB but is that NFHS rules isn't it ? I'm referring to NCAA.

Well, you are on a NFHS rules board, which is why I quoted NFHS rules!

But in NCAA, 7-1-3 says he may not lift the ball, but there is no restriction on him rotating it as long as he does not simulate the snap in doing so. 

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2011, 04:32:05 PM »
Well, you are on a NFHS rules board, which is why I quoted NFHS rules!

True but as the discussion had ended I thought no one would mind.

Here's where I am confused

7-1-4-b-2 says
The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks

rotating the ball isn't moving it ?
 
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Offline James

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2011, 03:42:12 AM »
I guess you can assume that it means the position of the ball (left/right, forwards).

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2011, 08:17:31 AM »
Aussie, You may be confusing what is allowed by the snapper when he breaks the huddle and initially adjusts the ball and what he is allowed to do once he establishes himself in the set position.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2011, 09:35:12 AM »
Sure it does, in 7-1-2:

The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate
end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.

Not just an accepted practice, it's a rule.

Although the rule clearly states, "The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation", many officials are also cognizant of NF 7-1-7 and understand that lifting the ball, for perfectly legitimate reasons, can be misunderstood by the defense and risks "causing B to encroach", which might trigger NF: 7-1-8.  (a purely judgment call)

In essense, gramatically, the sapper lifting the ball may be quite innocent, and perfectly legal, but may also be unfortunately misunderstood and cause a situation that can be avoided by simply advising the snapper, which has been a not uncommon practice for the past 100+ years, to either NOT lift the ball, ask the Umpire for assistance, or be really, really careful how the ball is lifted so as not to be considered to "simulate action at the snap" which may have "caused" B to encroach. 

Sometimes excessive reliance on what may actually be right, can turn out differently, and create unnecessary problems that could have been easily avoided with just a little common sense. 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2011, 10:36:18 AM »
Although the rule clearly states, "The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation", many officials are also cognizant of NF 7-1-7 and understand that lifting the ball, for perfectly legitimate reasons, can be misunderstood by the defense and risks "causing B to encroach", which might trigger NF: 7-1-8.  (a purely judgment call)

In essense, gramatically, the sapper lifting the ball may be quite innocent, and perfectly legal, but may also be unfortunately misunderstood and cause a situation that can be avoided by simply advising the snapper, which has been a not uncommon practice for the past 100+ years, to either NOT lift the ball, ask the Umpire for assistance, or be really, really careful how the ball is lifted so as not to be considered to "simulate action at the snap" which may have "caused" B to encroach. 

Sometimes excessive reliance on what may actually be right, can turn out differently, and create unnecessary problems that could have been easily avoided with just a little common sense.

You have got to be kidding.  Unfortunately, I know you are not.

If an umpire can't differentiate between an snapper LEGALLY lifting the ball to rotate it before he or the line are set, and lifting it in a manner that simulates the snap (which would typically come AFTER the line was set), then it's not a matter of the snapper needing to go out of his way to ask the umpire to do it, it's a matter of the umpire learning the rules or getting off the field.

Any umpire that tells the snapper he can't lift the ball to rotate it simply doesn't know the rules.  It's not "judgment", it's ignorance.

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2011, 01:18:30 PM »
"Can the snapper leave the huddle come to the LOS and lift the ball? Lets say he is lifting the ball to get the strings laces positioned where he wants them and not to draw off the defense."


Based on the original question. I agree with Atlanta Blue. The snapper has not committed an infraction. I understand UpState's reasoning for not wanting the ball lifted in any circumstance, but that is not fair to the snapper, who is allowed to adjust the ball. If the snapper makes any movement other than a simple adjustment (the spirit of the rule), then we do have a rule violation and we should penalize the infraction.


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2011, 12:40:55 PM »
You have got to be kidding.  Unfortunately, I know you are not.

it's a matter of the umpire learning the rules or getting off the field.
Any umpire that tells the snapper he can't lift the ball to rotate it simply doesn't know the rules.  It's not "judgment", it's ignorance.

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that Umpires are well aware of the details of this (and all the other) rules, and more importantly understand what they are intended to accomplish.  I didn't say a snapper "CAN'T" lift the ball, I suggested it's not a good idea for the snapper "TO" lift the ball (or as previously suggested), be "really, really careful how the ball is lifted so as not to be considered to "simulate action at the snap".

Most Umpires, I've had the pleasure to work with seem a lot more concerned with the smooth operation of the game they are working and minimizing potential problems than demonstrating the precision of their rules knowledge. My suggestions were not intended to point to obvious situations where actual movement of the ball is premature or otherwise inconsequential, I presume all Umpires understand full well how to deal with that. 

My suggestions were related to those situations where a snap is reasonably iminent, or possible, and such movement might reasonably cause unintended consequences or needless confusion and controversey. Experience confirms that most, if not all, snappers understand such suggestions and don't have any difficulty in being reminded to avoid unnecessary problems that may result from careless and unnecessary movement of the ball at critical times.

john3459

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2011, 02:54:46 PM »
If A does not gain an advantage...........LEAVE IT ALONE. No one paid it see us work.

takemeaway10

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2011, 04:25:13 PM »
there is no exception for "As long as he doesn't do so in a jerky, "snap-like "motion." and the word "Rotate" does not appear in the rule book.

So is this an unwritten but accepted practice ?

There's definitely a rule in there about illegal snaps. If the snapper's adjustment is jerky for whatever reason, it's a snap infraction. But you guys are talking about NCAA, so I must be in the wrong place  ???

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Can snapper lift the ball - Fed Rules
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2011, 04:11:27 AM »
I apologize for hijacking the thread but since the last post before mine was in March I assumed the topic was dead.
Isn't there a statute of limitations ?
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