Author Topic: Fouls on Scoring Play  (Read 3295 times)

FredFan7

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Fouls on Scoring Play
« on: July 26, 2011, 10:25:08 AM »
1.  First and 10 from the 50.  A10 throws a pass to A81.  B24 is guilty of DPI at the 20 yard line.  A81 catches the pass at the 20 yard line and runs for a TD.   

What are A's options for the penalty?


2.  Same play as above, but add that A81 spikes the ball after the TD.  After the back judge for his second flag and brings rain with it, how do we sort it out?   

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 10:34:21 AM »
For 2, the play is over - dead ball.

Offline Harry

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 11:05:42 AM »
1. TD.  Foul is enforced on the try or kickoff.
2. TD.  Both teams have a choice.  A chooses first, but should be told what B's choices are.  It will likely be A's try from B's 16 1/2, but A might see that as hopeless, so it may also be A's try from B's 18 and then A kicks off 15yds from the 40.  A kickoff from B45.  I think either way B will choose to have A penalized on the try.

Eli

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 12:46:05 PM »
There is a conflict in the Rules Book:

In 10-4-5b... "the basic spot is the succeeding spot for a dead-ball foul"... In 10-1-3 "when a live-ball foul by one team is followed by a dead-ball foul by the opponent, the penalties are administered separately and in the order of occurrence". If this is followed , A can accept B's penalty at the 40 forcing B to accept A's dead ball foul at the B45 (succeeding spot). Kick-off from A's 40.

However, 8-2-5 states that "....... any foul for which the basic spot is the succeeding spot ...." may choose enforcement on the (a) try, or (b) subsequent kick-off. This seems to allow the dead-ball foul to be enforced first (on the try) and the live-ball foul enforced second (on A's 40)?

Since the established policy as stated in the Rules Book is "in the order of occurrence", I would have to enforce first from the A40 then from the B45 assuming A chose the subsequent kick-off.

Comments?

Another topic: Case Play 7.5.13 - Why has the Fed stated if touched beyond the line of scrimmage it would be offensive pass interference? No illegal touching rules or Table 7-5 has been changed; everything that I can find states "behind, in or beyond the neutral zone" is illegal touching.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 02:23:59 PM »
I think everyone agrees that in (1), A keeps the TD & can choose either the try or ensuing kickoff for enforcement.

For (2), I would first ask A whether they want the 15 yards on the try or on the kickoff.   Then I'd ask B the same question, after telling him what A's choice was.

I see no reason why we couldn't have A's try from the B-18, and A's kickoff from the B-45.  The fact that the kickoff comes after the try doesn't mean that the choices can't be given in order of occurrence.

Online BIG UMP

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 02:29:43 PM »
Exactly correct.  The choices are given in the order of occurrence not that the fouls are penalized in the order of occurrence. 

Big Ump
aka Shawn

"EVERY JOB IS A SELF-PORTRAIT OF THE PERSON WHO DID IT.  AUTOGRAPH YOUR WORK WITH EXCELLENCE."~unknown

Eli

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 02:51:08 PM »
10-1-3 says ..."the penalties are administered separately and in the order of occurrence". In my association, administered means to dispense, execute, etc. That means the penalties or executed in the order of occurrence.

How can it be any other way?

Eli

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 02:59:54 PM »
All I'm saying is there is a conflict in the wording of the rules and is this a case where we do not have to "administer" in the order of occurrence?

I realize there may be many opinions; however, I'm looking for the correct answer from someone with the authority to say this is the way it is (whatever that may be).

What about the play I mentioned (7.5.13)?

Eli

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 08:56:37 PM »
Just got back from my state rules meeting (Tennessee). The state rules representative said the following:

1. A will have first choice where def. pass interference will be enforced.
2. B will have second choice where unsportsmanlike will be enforced.
3. Even if A chooses to enforce on the subsequent kick-off, B can choose to enforce on the try which means the penalties will not be enforced in the order of occurrence.

I would have chosen the more established and more common rule (i.e., in the order of occurrence)  but I would have missed it.

Thanks for the discussion. I have been reading the forums for years but have never posted. These discussions are a great place to learn.

 tiphat:

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 06:15:21 AM »
I think your "error" was in the definition of ADMINISTER, which I agree, the FED does not clearly define.

By asking A first, then B, you are "administering" the fouls in the order they occured, even if A chooses to take the penalty on the kickoff and B wants it on the try.  They may not be ENFORCED in order due to the choices, but they were ADMINISTERED in order.

Offline Ump33

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 09:10:10 PM »
10-1-3 says ..."the penalties are administered separately and in the order of occurrence". In my association, administered means to dispense, execute, etc. That means the penalties or executed in the order of occurrence.

How can it be any other way?

The fouls in the OP are "Special Enforcement Fouls"

10-5-1 ... The following fouls have special enforcement provisions and options for the offended team:
a. Free kick out of bounds untouched by R. (see 6-1-8)
b. Kick-catching interference. (see 6-5-6)
c. Unfair acts. (see 9-9)
d. A foul by the opponent of the scoring team on a successful try. (see 8-3-5)
e. A foul by the opponents of the scoring team on a successful field goal. (see 8-4-3)
f. Fouls that occur during or after a touchdown scoring play. (see 8-2-2, 8-2-3, 8-2-4 and 8-2-5)
g. Roughing the passer. (see 9-4-4)
h. Roughing the kicker or holder (see 9-4-5)
i. Roughing the snapper (see 9-4-6)

Offline BryanM67

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 08:35:33 AM »
OK.. I am confused..

I thought DPI is a previous spot foul (since a pass play falls into the loose ball category for "All But One" enforcement).

Looking at the chart on Page 63 (part of Rule 7-5), it says DPI is a previous spot file.  So the options to the offended team would be 1 and 10 from B's 35 (penalty enforced) or TD (penalty deferred) - guaranteed they would take the TD.

However, with 8-2-2..does that make an "exception" where fouls that are normally enforced from previous spot will instead be enforced from succeeding spot (try or kickoff) if a TD was scored?
Football referee rookie

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Fouls on Scoring Play
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 08:40:43 AM »
All fouls by the opponent of the scoring team on scoring plays may now be penalized on the try or succeeding kick-off, unless its at the end of the 4th period and OT looms- there is no kickoff- so yes, it is an exception with special enforcement.

We've had this change for a couple of years now.