Author Topic: more baffling questions  (Read 1378 times)

Offline Navcom

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more baffling questions
« on: April 14, 2018, 09:23:36 AM »

2/10 @ A-25 at the snap A88 goes up field and A11 throws a forward pass from the A-21 towards A88 who:

a) catches the pass with one foot on the sideline @ A-30

b) is blocked out of bounds by B26 before the pass is thrown. A88 gets both feet back in-bounds, catches the pass @ A-30 and tackled @A-40.

c) has stepped out of bounds @ A-30 then gets back both feet inbounds. catches the pass @ a-40 and tackled there.


A 4/10 @ A-20. Team A from a scrimmage kick punts the ball, B17, who is @ B-40 to receive the kick:

a) gives a valid fair catch signal

b)  gives an invalid fair catch signal

c) gives no signal
muffs the kick up into the air and while still having an opportunity to complete the catch, A37 contacts B17 @ B-41 before B17 completes the catch @ B-43 on one knee.


A 3/2 @ B-49, prior to the snap B92 crosses the NZ prior to the snap

a) then gets back on the defensive side of the NZ prior to the snap

b) is still in the NZ at the snap

c) contacts A77, before the snap
where possible play can continue; A44 is handed the ball and tackled @ B-48. The previous play was an incomplete pass

A 3/3 @ B13 on the left hash. A11 throws a pass to A88. as the pass is in the air, B18 hooks and turns A88

a) @ B-1 rt Hash

b) @ B-4 right Hash

c) @ within the right side of the end zone,
        resulting in an incomplete pass

A 2/G @ B-7. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne @ B-2 and places the ball over the pylon while crossing the goal line extended and his first contact to the ground is out of bounds two yards beyond the goal line.


A 3/9 @ A-40. A17 throws a forward pass to A88 who is stretched out in the air and grabs the pass @ B-40 when, B23 launches and contacts A88 before touching the ground with

a) the crown of his helmet in A88s rib area;

b) his arm to the side of A88s helmet

c) his shoulder into A88s shoulder;
as the pass falls incomplete from A88 hands to the ground

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 11:06:07 AM »
1) difference between incomplete and illegal touching of a forward pass
2) right to complete a muffed kick after fair catch signal
3) knowing what allows and disallows a snap
4) Spot, 15, 2, half.  Spot means spot, 15 means previous spot including which hash
5) Didn't know there was a difference with pylons from NFHS to NCAA
6) 9.1.3, 9.1.4

Offline Kalle

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 02:37:58 PM »
Additionally, in #3 you want to check the rules on when does the game clock start after penalty enforcement.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 04:18:35 PM »
They gave me a few more:

2/10 @ A-25 at the snap A88 goes up field and A11 throws a forward pass from the A-21 towards A88 who:

a) catches the pass with one foot on the sideline @ A-30
The loose ball has touched something that is out of bounds, therefore the ball is dead, and the pass is incomplete.  A, 3/10,A-25; Play clock (40), starts on official’s incomplete signal.  Game clock starts on snap.  The play description does not indicate that A88 was eligible (by position), but that doesn’t matter, because he is already OB when he touches the ball, so his eligibility is irrelevant.

b) is blocked out of bounds by B26 before the pass is thrown. A88 gets both feet back in-bounds, catches the pass @ A-30 and tackled @A-40.
Assuming A88 was eligible by position, and returned inbounds immediately (as soon as he possibly can), he retains his eligibility to touch a legal forward pass (before B).  Completed pass, and legal advance.  A, 1/10, A-40; (40), starts on official’s T/O signal for the first down for A.  Game clock starts on RFP (when ball is spotted).

c) has stepped out of bounds @ A-30 then gets back both feet inbounds. catches the pass @ a-40 and tackled there.
Assuming A88 was eligible by position, and assuming he stepped OB voluntarily, A88 loses his eligibility to touch a LFP before B.  Ball remains alive and in play, until A88 is tackled; then clock stops to complete the penalty for A88’s illegal touching foul.  The penalty is loss of down at the previous spot.  A, 3/10, A-25.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on RFP.

A 4/10 @ A-20. Team A from a scrimmage kick punts the ball, B17, who is @ B-40 to receive the kick:

a) gives a valid fair catch signal
Kick Catch Interference by A37.  B, 1/10, A-44. Play clock (25), RFP. Game clock starts on snap.

b)  gives an invalid fair catch signal
No foul.  Ball is dead when B17 completes the catch (due to the invalid fair catch signal, regardless of knee on the ground).  B, 1/10, B-43.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.

c) gives no signal
No foul.  Ball is dead when B17 completes the catch with his knee on the ground).  B, 1/10, B-43.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.

muffs the kick up into the air and while still having an opportunity to complete the catch, A37 contacts B17 @ B-41 before B17 completes the catch @ B-43 on one knee.


A 3/2 @ B-49, prior to the snap B92 crosses the NZ prior to the snap

a) then gets back on the defensive side of the NZ prior to the snap
Assuming there is no offensive reaction, there is no foul, play continues, and the play clock is not interrupted.

b) is still in the NZ at the snap
B92 commits a live-ball foul for offside.  The play continues, and the clock is stopped when A44 is tackled, to complete the penalty.  Team A will obviously accept the 5-yard penalty at the previous spot.  A, 1/10, B-44.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on RFP.

c) contacts A77, before the snap
B-92 commits a dead-ball foul for offside with contact. The play clock is interrupted to complete the 5-yard penalty at the succeeding spot.  A, 1/10, B-44.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.

where possible play can continue; A44 is handed the ball and tackled @ B-48. The previous play was an incomplete pass

A 3/3 @ B13 on the left hash. A11 throws a pass to A88. as the pass is in the air, B18 hooks and turns A88

a) @ B-1 rt Hash
DPI by B18.  Since the snap was between B-17 and B-2, and foul occurred beyond the B-2, the ball is placed at the B-2, from the previous spot.  A, 1/G, B-2, left hash.  Play clock (25), RFP. Game clock starts on snap.

b) @ B-4 right Hash
DPI by B-18.  Since the snap was between B-17 and B-2, and the foul was not beyond the B-2, the ball is placed at the spot of the foul (or at the hash mark to that side, if in a side zone).  A, 1/G, B-4, right hash mark.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.

c) @ within the right side of the end zone,
DPI by B-18.  Since the snap was between B-17 and B-2, and the foul was beyond the B-2, the ball is placed at the B-2, from the previous spot.  A, 1/G, B-2, left hash.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.
       resulting in an incomplete pass

A 2/G @ B-7. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne @ B-2 and places the ball over the pylon while crossing the goal line extended and his first contact to the ground is out of bounds two yards beyond the goal line.
For an airborne player, forward progress is given to the point where the ball crossed the sideline.  For an airborne ball carrier, the ball must break the plane of the goal line between the sidelines, to be touchdown.  The goal line does not extend beyond the sidelines for airborne ball carriers.  (Pylons are outside the sidelines.) Assuming no part of the ball broke the plane of the goal line between the sidelines (when it passed over the pylon), the ball is out of bounds just short of the goal line (when A-1 lands OB).  A, 3/G, just outside the goal line.  Play clock (40), starts on official’s T/O signal.  Game clock starts when ball is spotted and R signals.
However, if some part of the ball broke the plane of the goal line between the sidelines, Touchdown.  A, try, B-3.  By 2017 rules, play clock (40), RFP (2018 rules may be different).  Game clock does not run.


A 3/9 @ A-40. A17 throws a forward pass to A88 who is stretched out in the air and grabs the pass @ B-40 when, B23 launches and contacts A88 before touching the ground with

a) the crown of his helmet in A88s rib area;
Targeting foul by B23.  Although the contact was not to the head or neck area, B23 used the crown of his helmet, in conjunction with a ‘launch,’ to make contact to a defenseless opponent.  The other component of targeting, “forcible contact,” can only be assumed in this question, but, as always, when in question, the contact is targeting.  A, 1/10,  B-45.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.  B23 is disqualified.

b) his arm to the side of A88s helmet
Targeting foul by B23.  Although the contact was not with the helmet, B23 used his arm, in conjunction with a ‘launch,’ to make contact to a defenseless opponent in the head/ neck area. The other component of targeting, “forcible contact,” can only be assumed in this question, but, as always, when in question, the contact is targeting.  A, 1/10,  B-45.  Play clock (25), RFP.  Game clock starts on snap.  B23 is disqualified.

c) his shoulder into A88s shoulder;
This is legal contact.  No foul.  A, 4/9, A-40.  Play clock (40), starts on official’s incomplete signal.  Game clock starts on snap.

as the pass falls incomplete from A88 hands to the groun


Robert

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 01:01:50 PM »
I think you really need to start here:

https://store.referee.com/2017-football-rules-differences


Online ElvisLives

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 05:06:58 PM »
Sonofanump,
Did I miss something?  I don’t see where Navcom was asking about differences between NCCA and other rule codes.  I’d hate for him to get confused by looking at something unrelated to his questions.

Robert

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 07:25:40 PM »
Agreed, what I did not consider was states that use NCAA for high school, not someone moving up from NFHS to NCAA which I presumed  was basis of the questions.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 07:36:31 PM »
Similarly, I ‘assumed’ he was out of country, and didn’t consider that he may have a NFHS background.  Let’s hope he can filter everything appropriately, and assimilate NCAA rules satisfactorily.

Robert

Offline Navcom

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 12:06:59 PM »
sorry for the confusion. yes, I'm making the attempt to move from HS to College. Its been challenging since we still run, 4 man mechanics at the varsity level. yes i know, WTF!!!    we are trying to get 5th man. budget is weak.   

Offline Morningrise

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 03:30:35 PM »
A 2/G @ B-7. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne @ B-2 and places the ball over the pylon while crossing the goal line extended and his first contact to the ground is out of bounds two yards beyond the goal line.
For an airborne player, forward progress is given to the point where the ball crossed the sideline.  For an airborne ball carrier, the ball must break the plane of the goal line between the sidelines, to be touchdown.  The goal line does not extend beyond the sidelines for airborne ball carriers.  (Pylons are outside the sidelines.) Assuming no part of the ball broke the plane of the goal line between the sidelines (when it passed over the pylon), the ball is out of bounds just short of the goal line (when A-1 lands OB).  A, 3/G, just outside the goal line.  Play clock (40), starts on official’s T/O signal.  Game clock starts when ball is spotted and R signals.
However, if some part of the ball broke the plane of the goal line between the sidelines, Touchdown.  A, try, B-3.  By 2017 rules, play clock (40), RFP (2018 rules may be different).  Game clock does not run.


Although the pylons lie outside the sidelines, my understanding was that the 4" x 4" column of air above the pylon is like the pylon itself: If you can put the ball there, you have a touchdown.

I'm pretty sure you get a touchdown if you can put the possessed ball in any of these places:

1. Anywhere beyond the infinite goal line, if your body is touching the end zone ground or the pylon. (Note that touching the pylon ends the down one way or the other)
2. Above the rectangle of the end zone
3. Touching the pylon, even the side of the pylon that's four inches out of bounds

and I had thought this was also one:

4? Above the pylon



Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 03:53:47 PM »
Although the pylons lie outside the sidelines, my understanding was that the 4" x 4" column of air above the pylon is like the pylon itself: If you can put the ball there, you have a touchdown.

I'm pretty sure you get a touchdown if you can put the possessed ball in any of these places:

1. Anywhere beyond the infinite goal line, if your body is touching the end zone ground or the pylon. (Note that touching the pylon ends the down one way or the other)
2. Above the rectangle of the end zone
3. Touching the pylon, even the side of the pylon that's four inches out of bounds

and I had thought this was also one:

4? Above the pylon

Correct, the pylon is in the end zone. So, in your list, #4 is actually a subset of #2 (although it makes the end zone a non-rectangle).

Online ElvisLives

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 05:17:52 PM »
Correct, the pylon is in the end zone. So, in your list, #4 is actually a subset of #2 (although it makes the end zone a non-rectangle).

ChicagoZebra, that is not quite correct.  All pylons are out of bounds - not in the end zone.  Because their front faces align with the goal line, the goal line pylons are out of bounds BEHIND THE GOAL LINE, which means that a ball that touches a goal line pylon is OB behind the goal line.  If this is an attacking player, then that yields a TD.

A non-airborne BC that manages to extend the ball to, or beyond, the goal line (including touching the pylon with the ball), either above the playing field or over the ground outside the sideline (the goal line extends beyond the sideline for non-airborne BCs), AND touch a pylon or the ground in the end zone with any part of his body (before touching the ground OB) is credited with a TD.

However, an airborne BC gets credit for forward progress ONLY between the sidelines (the goal line is not extended beyond the sidelines for airborne BCs).  If the ball passes over the pylon - and no part of the ball penetrates the goal line (which stops at the sideline) as the BC "flies" OB, then forward progress is to the point where the ball passes over the sideline, i.e., just short of the goal line.  Technically, a truly airborne BC that touches the front face of the pylon (or the air space directly over the pylon) with the ball - and no part of the ball penetrates the goal line, which, again stops at the sideline, would not score a TD.  Progress would be given to the point where the ball crossed the sideline, i.e., just short of the goal line.

In reality, though, when an airborne BC reaches for, and touches, the pylon with the ball, he is almost always guaranteed to have had some part of the ball penetrate the plane of the goal line, thus, TD.  Same if he manages to get the ball to pass over the pylon.  The size of the football almost always assures the BC that some part of the ball penetrated the goal line as it was passing over the pylon.  TD.

Robert 

Offline Kalle

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 01:50:20 AM »
However, an airborne BC gets credit for forward progress ONLY between the sidelines (the goal line is not extended beyond the sidelines for airborne BCs).  If the ball passes over the pylon - and no part of the ball penetrates the goal line (which stops at the sideline) as the BC "flies" OB, then forward progress is to the point where the ball passes over the sideline, i.e., just short of the goal line.

Isn't this the same play as in A.R. 8-2-1-II, where the ruling is a TD?

Online ElvisLives

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 07:26:39 AM »
Kalle,
Yes.  Like I noted, a ball that passes over a pylon is pretty well guaranteed to have broken the plane of the goal line (between the sidelines).  But, if we can clearly see the ball cross over the sideline without passing over the pylon, and the BC is airborne, that won’t score a TD, even if the ball is beyond the goal line extended when it becomes dead, because the goal line does not extend beyond the sidelines for airborne BCs.

Honestly, in the purest sense of the rules as they are written, the AR is in conflict with the rules.  Since the pylon is totally outside the sideline, a ball that passes ONLY over the pylon, with no part passing through the plane of the goal line - which stops at the inner edge of the pylon for an airborne BC - technically, should NOT be a TD.  But, the simple size of a football, as compared to a pylon, pretty well assures us that a ball that passes over a pylon most likely also passed through the plane of the goal line.  And it is going to be very hard to tell if the ball passed ONLY over the pylon, without, technically, breaking the plane of the goal line.  If a BC can get the ball over the pylon, let’s give him the TD.  And that’s what the AR says.

Robert

Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2018, 10:25:59 AM »
Kalle,
Yes.  Like I noted, a ball that passes over a pylon is pretty well guaranteed to have broken the plane of the goal line (between the sidelines).  But, if we can clearly see the ball cross over the sideline without passing over the pylon, and the BC is airborne, that won’t score a TD, even if the ball is beyond the goal line extended when it becomes dead, because the goal line does not extend beyond the sidelines for airborne BCs.

Honestly, in the purest sense of the rules as they are written, the AR is in conflict with the rules.  Since the pylon is totally outside the sideline, a ball that passes ONLY over the pylon, with no part passing through the plane of the goal line - which stops at the inner edge of the pylon for an airborne BC - technically, should NOT be a TD.  But, the simple size of a football, as compared to a pylon, pretty well assures us that a ball that passes over a pylon most likely also passed through the plane of the goal line.  And it is going to be very hard to tell if the ball passed ONLY over the pylon, without, technically, breaking the plane of the goal line.  If a BC can get the ball over the pylon, let’s give him the TD.  And that’s what the AR says.

Robert

Robert, this speaks to my last point about the pylon being part of the end zone. Maybe that is an oversimplification of the rules, but I think a handy way to remember on the field / during tests how to rule.

Consider:
-Touching the pylon gives you the goal line extended, much like touching the end zone.
-Possessing the ball over the pylon is a touchdown, much like possessing the ball over the end zone. (as confirmed by that A.R.)

Now, you do need to be careful. Like any helpful mnemonic, this has its shortfalls. For example, catching a ball in mid-air and first touching the pylon is an incomplete pass and not a touchdown. Remember when the Big Ten replay official screwed this up? See 2:12 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDInzvIWaE

Online ElvisLives

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2018, 11:14:12 AM »
Robert, this speaks to my last point about the pylon being part of the end zone. Maybe that is an oversimplification of the rules, but I think a handy way to remember on the field / during tests how to rule.

Consider:
-Touching the pylon gives you the goal line extended, much like touching the end zone.
-Possessing the ball over the pylon is a touchdown, much like possessing the ball over the end zone. (as confirmed by that A.R.)

Now, you do need to be careful. Like any helpful mnemonic, this has its shortfalls. For example, catching a ball in mid-air and first touching the pylon is an incomplete pass and not a touchdown. Remember when the Big Ten replay official screwed this up? See 2:12 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDInzvIWaE

ChicagoZebra,

I was just trying to explain the very technical difference between an airborne BC and a non-airborne BC.  For the airborne BC, officially, by rule, the goal line is NOT extended.  But, if the airborne BC manages to get the ball over a pylon or touches a pylon, trying to distinguish whether or not the ball broke the plane of the goal line would be next to impossible, even with replay.  The AR says TD, so we go with that, even though it is entirely possible to have a ball (or some part of it, anyway) pass over or touch the pylon without it breaking the plane of the goal line, which stops at the sideline for an airborne BC.
In reality, the fact that the goal line stops at the sideline is the fundamental rule, and extending the GL outside the sideline for non-airborne BCs is the 'exception.'

Yes, I remember the Big 10 play.  I had not yet retired from FBS, and this was a major topic of discussion for several weeks that season.  Not the least of which is the fact that the R has the ability to overrule the RO, if he has positive knowledge that the ROs ruling is incorrect, by rule.  Wasn't there...don't know what conversation occurred between the RO and the R.  But, I can't help but think that, at some point, there had to be some reference to rule, i.e., an airborne player that touches a pylon is OB.  Thus, if an airborne player secures a loose ball in flight, then touches a pylon before returning to the ground inbounds, that is the same as first returning to the ground OB - incomplete pass.  The crew got it right, but, inexplicably, allowed the RO to, incorrectly, change the ruling.  I can't understand how there could have been a misunderstanding of such a fundamental rule.   But, then, one could ask how I screwed up a major penalty enforcement, when I fully well knew the rule.  Sometimes, crap happens.  You just hope you have enough TP to clean it up.

Robert   

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2018, 03:05:31 PM »
The goal line does not end at the inside edge of the pylon, it ends at the outside edge of the pylons. 2-12-2, emphasis mine: "The plane of the goal line extends between AND INCLUDES the pylons, which are out of bounds." A ball passing over the front edge of the pylon has broken the plane of the goal line.

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Re: more baffling questions
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2018, 03:59:16 PM »
DARN.  Redding messed me up again (changed in 2012), but no excuse.  I should have seen that.  So, indeed, if any part of the ball passes over any part of a goal line pylon, or touches a goal line pylon, before an airborne BC is OB, TD.

That's the value of this web site.  No matter how long we've been at it, we keep learning.

Thanks, Legacy.

Robert