Author Topic: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?  (Read 3488 times)

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Offline sirhoagy

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Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« on: September 07, 2018, 10:02:58 PM »
On their own 10 yard like, A punts.  Punt is blocked by B.

As B scrambles to get the ball, B accidentally kicks the ball into A's end zone.

B falls on the ball in A's end zone.

I ruled TD.

Why?

New force by B.  The ball was put in the end zone by B's kicking of a grounded ball.
New kick = new force, thus ending A's kick and starting a new force for B.

Thankfully this didn't affect the outcome but I'm doubting myself now.


Offline VA Official

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 10:11:52 PM »
Ignore force completely in this play. Force only comes into play if we are dealing with a safety or a touchback, not a touchdown. Make it simple: possession of a ball in the opponent's endzone is always a touchdown.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 10:18:40 PM by VA Official »

Offline sirhoagy

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2018, 10:14:18 PM »
I done got it right!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2018, 08:06:15 AM »
On their own 10 yard like, A punts.  Punt is blocked by B. As B scrambles to get the ball, B accidentally kicks the ball into A's end zone.
B falls on the ball in A's end zone. I ruled TD. Why?
New force by B.  The ball was put in the end zone by B's kicking of a grounded ball.
New kick = new force, thus ending A's kick and starting a new force for B., fits all.
Thankfully this didn't affect the outcome but I'm doubting myself now.

It's nowhere near being automatic, was the "force" (and likely change of direction) from the blocked kick expired?  If YOU correctly judged it was, and the muff by B was actually a "new force", you were correct.  One size rarely fits all.

Offline sirhoagy

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2018, 08:38:09 AM »
In my opinion, yes.  I believe the ball was going to come to rest on the 1 or 2.  The kick by B put the ball in the end zone.

Offline Tdjr

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 09:44:23 AM »
VA Official is right. Force would only matter if "A" recovered the ball.....or if the loose ball went out of bounds in the end zone. Touchdown. 8-2-1
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 09:54:22 AM by Tdjr »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2018, 02:01:57 PM »
New force results from a bat, muff, or illegal kick. An “accidental kick” is not a new force.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2018, 02:23:48 PM »
New force results from a bat, muff, or illegal kick. An “accidental kick” is not a new force.

Chasing the pink elephant here a bit, an accidental kick could result from an attempt to gain possession of a bouncing ball -- aka, a muff. While we often think of the ball bouncing off of somebody's hands, there's no restriction as to which body part touches the ball in a muff.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant to the initial play since "Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown" is the most important Football Fundamental. How it got there is not relevant.

Offline blandis

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 01:11:19 AM »
That ball has got to practically laying still for a new force to be added by B's accidental muff. TD. Good call.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2018, 07:32:06 AM »
Chasing the pink elephant here a bit, an accidental kick could result from an attempt to gain possession of a bouncing ball -- aka, a muff. While we often think of the ball bouncing off of somebody's hands, there's no restriction as to which body part touches the ball in a muff.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant to the initial play since "Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown" is the most important Football Fundamental. How it got there is not relevant.
I almost agree with everything you said. How it got there is relevant if it got there by an illegal kick. True, the result of the play would still be a TD, but I’m sure if the illegal kick was by B, A would want to take the penalty and get the ball back.


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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2018, 09:24:19 AM »
I probably shouldn't be stirring somebody else's pot, but, from what I've read here, it sounds like NF and NCAA are the same on this subject, although, in NCAA, the word "force" is never used.  Nonetheless, all of the principles seem to apply for both sets of rules.

Which brings me to a point.
Somebody made the statement that impetus "...only comes into play if we are dealing with a safety or a touchback, not a touchdown." While pragmatic, that statement is incorrect.  Any time - ANY TIME - the ball is dead behind a goal line, the result is totally dependent upon who is responsible for the ball being behind that goal line, and who is in team possession when it becomes dead. 
If the defending team is responsible, and the defending team is in possession - there's your safety.  If the defending team is responsible and the attacking team is in possession, there's your touchdown.
If the attacking team is responsible, and the defending team is in possession, there's your touchback.  If the attacking team is responsible, and the attacking team is in possession, there's your touchdown.

Impetus applies any time the ball becomes dead behind a goal line.

Another point.  It also sounds like NF and NCAA are the same with respect to kicking a ball.  If that is the case, then there is no such thing as "accidentally kicking" a ball.  If the act of kicking a ball is intentional, then that is, in fact, a kick.  If a player's leg unintentionally contacts a loose ball, that is not a kick.  It is nothing more than the ball being deflected by, or off of, a player, and is just a muff.  The words "accidentally" and "unintentionally" should never be used with words "kicked" or "kicks" when discussing football rules.  The ball is either kicked (which means one thing), or it is muffed (which means something entirely different).  When describing such unintentional action, use language like, "While attempting to recover the loose ball, the ball deflects off of B55's leg."  Or, "While attempting to block B33, the loose ball bounces and deflects off of A66's leg."  That removes any ambiguity.

Robert

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Punt play : Did I get it wrong?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 08:12:33 AM »
The statement is correct.  A touchdown is possession of a live ball in the opponent’s EZ, regardless of who put it in there.

Force (impetus) IS a factor when ruling TB vs safety.