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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bbeagle on November 12, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
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Sectional Playoff game.
Team A has the ball 1st and 10. They just got a first down - clock stopped at 00:25. When the chains are set the Referee signals ready for play, the clock starts.
Must Team A hike the ball? The head referee says that Team A MUST hike the ball, because at :25 there is a delay of game penalty (not LONGER than :25, but EXACTLY AT :25, there is a delay of game penalty). He wanted to do the game 'by the book' as this was a playoff game.
I'm wondering why does this matter? When the clock hits :00 the game is over. Even if you throw your flag at :00 for delay of game - you can't enforce the penalty, because this isn't a live ball foul, correct?
I can barely even understand 25.1 seconds, but that makes sense, but not 25 seconds exactly.
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Unless you have tenths on your clock, if the clock says there is :25 left, then you actually have somewhere between 24.01 and 25.0, meaning there is exactly 25 seconds OR LESS remaining. So no, team A should not have to snap the ball.
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Why is your R looking for trouble? :!#
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Why is your R looking for trouble? :!#
Trouble got him too...
The ball was hiked at like :10, and a defensive player hit the QB with a cheap shot. Which would not have happened if the ball was not put into play. Luckily the rest of Team A and B players didn't get heated, and the game ended with just that.
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The head referee says that Team A MUST hike the ball, because at :25 there is a delay of game penalty (not LONGER than :25, but EXACTLY AT :25, there is a delay of game penalty). He wanted to do the game 'by the book' as this was a playoff game.
Which one is the "head" referee? ;)
In any case, he's wrong. It's DOG when A fails "to snap or free kick within 25 seconds after the ball is marked ready for play." The 25th second is "within 25 seconds."
If the clock reads 25 seconds, A does not need to snap the ball.
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Unless you have tenths on your clock, if the clock says there is :25 left, then you actually have somewhere between 24.01 and 25.0, meaning there is exactly 25 seconds OR LESS remaining. So no, team A should not have to snap the ball.
Tenths of a second should be banned from football timing - they can only cause us trouble. Trouble is ADs spend a lot of money on these expensive boards for track purposes and want to get their money's worth.
Trouble got him too...
The ball was hiked at like :10, and a defensive player hit the QB with a cheap shot. Which would not have happened if the ball was not put into play. Luckily the rest of Team A and B players didn't get heated, and the game ended with just that.
^good
I rest my case...
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Good topic to support the following: clock operators, disable the tenths of a second display on your clocks..
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Good topic to support the following: clock operators, disable the tenths of a second display on your clocks..
We've tried; and most often the response is "the AD won't let me turn that functionality off". Absent specific rule support, we're truly at the schools' mercy....
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Good topic to support the following: clock operators, disable the tenths of a second display on your clocks..
Short of the instruction manual lying on the counter next to the control panel, how would anyone know how?
When I've been assigned as an ECO in the playoffs, all I do is show up and mash the remote switch on or off. The "civilian" handles everything else.
Its the easiest $70 in football ::) :)
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Along those same lines, how many of you have schools that have horns on their clocks still?
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Along those same lines, how many of you have schools that have horns on their clocks still?
...which should also be banned (by rule).
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Its the easiest $70 in football when done correctly.
I had to have the clock reset on three consecutive plays at the end of my playoff game last Friday. The Visitors scored on the last play, but didn't convert the two-point try.
Fortunately for my ECO, he drove his own car to the game. hEaDbAnG hEaDbAnG
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I'm a ECO for a D-111 NCAA school and have always been able to shut the "auto horn" off, but the tenth of a second doesn't give me a choice. Few years ago near the end of the first half, the visitors were driving away from the scoreboard, when : (1) ball hits ground on an incomplete pass; ^no (2) I stop clock ; (3) Home coach looks at the press box (me) and begins to waive his fist >:(; (4) the field officials give me a ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? look; (5) I look at clock and it reads 0 : 00.3 :!# ::) ; (6) The next play is also an incomplete pass :bOW. I was watching the play and not the clock but received much nAnA heat - the ECO is trying to do his job by watching the officials and the play, not the clock - give him some slack. :)
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Even if we turn off the tenths, they still kick in for the last minute (a la basketball).
And while the horn could be shut off, no one has ever asked us to do it.
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Short of the instruction manual lying on the counter next to the control panel, how would anyone know how? When I've been assigned as an ECO in the playoffs, all I do is show up and mash the remote switch on or off. The "civilian" handles everything else. Its the easiest $70 in football ::) :)
Correctly operating the game clock should be a relatively smooth process, provided;
* The "Civilian" running the scoreboard knows what he's doing, or,
* The view is unobstructed by fans standing on seats directly in front of you, with or without umbrellas, or,
* A small booth with "pressbox coaches" from one, or sometimes both teams, asking stupid questions or making "questionable" comments about every call that doesn't go their way, or
* An announcer, 5 feet away, who thinks ESPN is secretly auditioning him, or,
* Stadium lights that are too old, too low or just too weak, or,
* Game officials along either sideline that are far harder to pick up in front of the team area (I understand white knickers are gone forever, but with all the benefits of our black trousers, the fact is they make game officials a lot harder to find on the field. That could be improved, considerably, by migrating NFHS shirts to the wider white stripes used at the NCAA level), or
* Game officials who sometimes forget to give clear, difinitive signals repeated enough so that someone who may for good reason be focused elsewhere, might see and pick up the signal, or
* Umpires and Referees who sometimes forget to consistently pick up and repeat signals given by wing officials in front of the team areas, who may be obstructed, or lost, behind (or in front of) 40, or more players & coaches, cheerleaders, band personnel and photographers and other "special people" allowed on sidelines. or
* A Referee who is willing to advise an exciteable coach that a TO begins when the official HE told he wants one acknowledges he heard it and signals, rather than when he decided he might want a TO and then goes to find his wing official to tell about it.
When things go as expected, with no major surprises or problems, operating the game clock can be a very enjoyable, and rewarding, experience.
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Unless it shows tenths of a second there is no delay if time expires.
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Interesting discussion while we're on the topic.
My association secretary has told me that the GHSA interpretation is that if the game clocked is stopped with less than one second (0.1 - 0.9) when tenths are on the clock, the period is over.
I always tell my game clock operator to turn tenths off. Most schools around here use Electromech. There's always been a way to turn them off so far.
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Interesting discussion while we're on the topic.
My association secretary has told me that the GHSA interpretation is that if the game clocked is stopped with less than one second (0.1 - 0.9) when tenths are on the clock, the period is over.
I always tell my game clock operator to turn tenths off. Most schools around here use Electromech. There's always been a way to turn them off so far.
There is no such GHSA interpretation. Turning the tenths off is an excellent idea, but if you do, if there are between .1 and .9 seconds left, them the clock will show :01, not :00. That's why there is no such interpretation as the period being over with less than one second showing.
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There is no such GHSA interpretation. Turning the tenths off is an excellent idea, but if you do, if there are between .1 and .9 seconds left, them the clock will show :01, not :00. That's why there is no such interpretation as the period being over with less than one second showing.
My association secretary said that Mr. Payne said that if 0.1 - 0.9 are on the clock, the period is over. I'm not saying I agree with the interpretation or have first hand knowledge of such an interpretation. I'm just relaying what was told to me. Yet another reason why tenths should be removed from the scoreboard - to remove all doubt.
I've heard/read different things on clock mechanics. I run the shot clock here for the college I work at and there was an article in Referee Magazine that caught my interest. The article said the "brain" of the shot clock is actually set to 35.99 not :35. The reason being is that otherwise, when the shot clock was at 0.1 - 0.9 the clock would actually just show a 0. So they set shot clocks to 35.99 to get around that.
So what does that mean for the clock mechanics. If the "brain" is set to 0.9 is the clock going to show :00 or :01? Sort of an important question. I spoke with an Electromech guy once that was installing the equipment at my school and he didn't know.
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My association secretary said that Mr. Payne said that if 0.1 - 0.9 are on the clock, the period is over. I'm not saying I agree with the interpretation or have first hand knowledge of such an interpretation. I'm just relaying what was told to me. Yet another reason why tenths should be removed from the scoreboard - to remove all doubt.[\quote]
I will have dinner with Dennis on Thursday. I will ask him if he ever said any such thing. I can assure you it is not in writing in any GHSA document.
I've heard/read different things on clock mechanics. I run the shot clock here for the college I work at and there was an article in Referee Magazine that caught my interest. The article said the "brain" of the shot clock is actually set to 35.99 not :35. The reason being is that otherwise, when the shot clock was at 0.1 - 0.9 the clock would actually just show a 0. So they set shot clocks to 35.99 to get around that.
So what does that mean for the clock mechanics. If the "brain" is set to 0.9 is the clock going to show :00 or :01? Sort of an important question. I spoke with an Electromech guy once that was installing the equipment at my school and he didn't know.
I don't see how that can be true. I used to keep the shot clock at Ga Tech. Watch the shot clock when you reset it. It doesn't take it a full second (or .99 seconds) to click to :34, it does it instantly.
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We've had this discussion before, AB. There are plenty of GHSA "interps" that aren't in writing anywhere. They're passed on from generation to generation, so to speak. The three point stance vs. two point stance low block in the shotgun, for instance. It's not in writing anywhere, but there it sits on the rules test every year.
At first when I was told that I thought maybe our secretary was either just making it up or having a brain fart, but it's been re-told to me by multiple higher ranking officials who all have a good relationship with DP. So I've grown to believe it until I'm told otherwise.
On the shot clock - I've looked and it appears to me that there is a delay on the shot clock before it drops down to 34 here at my school. I'll have to see if I can find that old copy of Referee Magazine. It was probably 3-4 years ago.
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We've had this discussion before, AB. There are plenty of GHSA "interps" that aren't in writing anywhere. They're passed on from generation to generation, so to speak. The three point stance vs. two point stance low block in the shotgun, for instance. It's not in writing anywhere, but there it sits on the rules test every year.
I agree, many are not in writing. The 2 pt vs 3 pt shotgun block was in writing at one point, with diagrams, in a presentation at the mechanics clinics. But there are many others that are not, and that's the problem. If they aren't in wrinting and distributed to both coaches and officials, are they really interpretations?
On the shot clock - I've looked and it appears to me that there is a delay on the shot clock before it drops down to 34 here at my school. I'll have to see if I can find that old copy of Referee Magazine. It was probably 3-4 years ago.
If it was Referee Ragazine, there's only a 50/50 chance they were right anyway! ;D
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My understanding of clock mechanics is that when a clock shows :01 (for example) there is AT LEAST a full second left and there can be as much as :01.9 seconds left. So, the instant that a clock hits :00 there are actually :00.9 seconds left. It's more noticeable in the gym, but when a clock first hits :00, the buzzer does NOT go off because there are actually :00.9 seconds left. The buzzer doesn't go off until almost a full second later at :00.0 or actually :00.0000000000000000!
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Not to seem anti-technical, or imprecise, but as relates to Interscholastic athletics, does the gnat's eyelash of precision really matter, as long as the details apply to both teams consistently? Any "25 second clock" is an updated version of NF: 2-35, specifying a 25 second RFP limit. For countless decades, before the technology of a visible countdown clock reached down to the HS level, that rule was managed on the field, by designated game officials.
I doubt any fair minded, honest official would argue that the actual duration of 25 seconds was somewhat variable, from official to official, game to game, region to region and for all these dacades was, at the very worst, a minor, infrequent problem. Precision is usually a beneficial factor, but not necessarily ALWAYS, and whether every game official keeping the 25 second count on the field, is absolutely accurate in determining 25 seconds, no more, no less or the electronic 25 second clock is accurate to the 10th of a second, likely is never going to become anything more than a minor, infrequent problem, as long as whatever inconsistenties or inaccuracies present are applied equally to both sides.
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Prior to the fancy gizmo's we now hook to our belts and prior to the back judge becoming vogue (4 man crews) this duty befell the white hat (abid there was an era of the white hat having black piping and bill). If he was facing the scoreboard (if a school had one) and good at math and the clock wasn't waiting for the snap to start, he would time the 25 seconds off the scoreboard. If any of the above was NO ::) , he would rely on his trusty Timex's second hand. yEs:. Most would round his glance to the "next" 30 seconds - no one ever seemed to mind. yEs: yEs:. Some claimed they counted by "thousands" backward from 25 - I didn't really believe them ::). If there wasn't a scoreboard, the field judge (now line judge) kept the time on his stop watch. The rest of his crew would always remind him that he shoulda' started the clock on the snap by cranking our arms after the ball was snapped. yEs: yEs: yEs: : The FJ would then let us know he was awake by cranking his arm. yEs:. This was later modified to only the FJ cranking to indicate he hadn't fallen asleep. yEs: Always remember no scoreboard = 4 minute warning and IF there is a horn BE SURE that it's shut off. tiphat:
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And with all that uncertainty and inconsistenty, by some miracle the game survived, even prospered to become the unquestioned leader in popularity. Amazing. How can we be expected to see the forest with all these damn trees blocking the view?
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I have made note of most all of the major scoreboard consoles and educated myself how to turn off tenths of a second. It's the first thing I do if I'm running ECO. I don't care how much the school spent on the scoreboard , it's going to be turned off if my crew is there.
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My association secretary has told me that the GHSA interpretation is that if the game clocked is stopped with less than one second (0.1 - 0.9) when tenths are on the clock, the period is over.
I said I would follow up wit the state, and I did. I have responded to SouthGARef in private with the exact response from the state interpreter, but just so others don't think we have completely lost our minds in Georgia, it was confirmed that this is not now, nor never has been, a GHSA interpretation. If even 1/10 of a second is on the clock, there is still time left in the game.
That being said, if you can turn off the tenths, by all means, do it, and avoid this kind of problem.
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I said I would follow up wit the state, and I did. I have responded to SouthGARef in private with the exact response from the state interpreter, but just so others don't think we have completely lost our minds in Georgia, it was confirmed that this is not now, nor never has been, a GHSA interpretation. If even 1/10 of a second is on the clock, there is still time left in the game.
That being said, if you can turn off the tenths, by all means, do it, and avoid this kind of problem.
Amen!!!
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I said I would follow up wit the state, and I did. I have responded to SouthGARef in private with the exact response from the state interpreter, but just so others don't think we have completely lost our minds in Georgia, it was confirmed that this is not now, nor never has been, a GHSA interpretation. If even 1/10 of a second is on the clock, there is still time left in the game.
That being said, if you can turn off the tenths, by all means, do it, and avoid this kind of problem.
AB, I never got a PM from you?
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talk to the clock operator before the game and tell him to stop the clock at 24 seconds so you don't have this problem LOLOL
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AB, I never got a PM from you?
Sent a PM and an email. Did you get either one?
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My understanding of clock mechanics is that when a clock shows :01 (for example) there is AT LEAST a full second left and there can be as much as :01.9 seconds left. So, the instant that a clock hits :00 there are actually :00.9 seconds left. It's more noticeable in the gym, but when a clock first hits :00, the buzzer does NOT go off because there are actually :00.9 seconds left. The buzzer doesn't go off until almost a full second later at :00.0 or actually :00.0000000000000000!
I understand it to be the opposite. If a clock shows :02 seconds, that actually means the time is anywhere between :01.1 and :01.9.
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Many of the displays on the press box control boxes show the tenths even when the time on the scoreboard is over one minute. When the scoreboard shows 12:00 and the switch is activated, the scoreboard now shows 11:59, but the control box shows 11:59:59.
So, the scoreboard display should actually be translated as "AT LEAST 11:59".
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I don't think the clock operators can easily turn the tenths off of the scoreboard. We mention it every game and they never do.
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I don't think the clock operators can easily turn the tenths off of the scoreboard. We mention it every game and they never do.
I certainly can't speak to all scoreboards, but on ours, it means hitting a sequence of 3 buttons, and takes less than 5 seconds.
Of course, it's not the pushing of 3 buttons, it's knowing WHICH 3 buttons to push in WHAT order that seems to confuse many people.
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In some areas, clock operators are officials and assigned by the local Officials Organization and work on any number of different control panels that operate the scoreboard clocks. If you can't turn off the 1/10 second feature for a clock operator, perhaps you could post some instructions for how to push those 3 buttons in the proper sequence to assist them (and you).
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In some areas, clock operators are officials and assigned by the local Officials Organization and work on any number of different control panels that operate the scoreboard clocks. If you can't turn off the 1/10 second feature for a clock operator, perhaps you could post some instructions for how to push those 3 buttons in the proper sequence to assist them (and you).
In Georgia, ECOs are officials for varsity games. When I coached from the press box, I would always turn it off if it was on during pregame. Now that I'm on the field, I DID post instructions, taped to the countertop. Admittedly, those instructions were primarily for the dads that were keeping the clock in sub-varsity games, but they are right there, clear enough for anyone to see. Some guys get it no problem, some don't. If they don't, I send one of our assistants from the coaching box to fix it, because it's irritating on the field (constant flashing). I also know if I have to send an assistant coach because the ECO can't read the instructions on how to do it, we should probably keep a close eye on the clock all night, it's probably not the only thing he isn't going to get right.
And experience seems to have nothing to do with quality of keeping the clock. I have seen rookies that were great, and rookies that were awful. One of the worst ECOs we had this year was the president of the association, who was out with an injury. He was too busy watching HOW the officials were doing, and not paying attention to his job. The R had to reset the clock a number of times that night. One time, the R came over to the sideline to tell us to call up there on the radio to give them a reset time. I asked, "Who's up there tonight?" When he told me, I said, "Wait, isn't he president of your association?" R said, "Yeah, you would think he would know better, but he has the attention span of a first grader. I hate when he has our clock. I wish he would heal up and get back on the field."
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I understand it to be the opposite. If a clock shows :02 seconds, that actually means the time is anywhere between :01.1 and :01.9.
0:02 means 2+.
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0:02 means 2+.
Well if that were true, then when the clock reads :00, then there's actually time left on the clock. That wouldn't make sense.
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Well if that were true, then when the clock reads :00, then there's actually time left on the clock. That wouldn't make sense.
It makes more sense than you think. Horns are not set to sound at the exact moment the display reads :00.