Author Topic: Unfair Acts  (Read 5133 times)

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Offline Derek Teigen

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Unfair Acts
« on: December 28, 2018, 01:26:01 PM »
I shadowed on the sidelines very experienced officials during the first varsity game this year.  It was a blowout and we have a mercy rule if a team is up by so many points the clock is kept running continously.

We were early in the second half and the team that was well ahead had just scored a touchdown and if they scored one more point the mercy rule would be in effect and the clock would run continously.  The coach told his team to snap the ball but not kick it.  No attempt was made to kick the ball.  It was clearly a planned attempt to avoid the mercy rule.

My question to you is would you invoke Section 9, article 5; which reads 'neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.   And if so what penalty would you award?  Or do you view this in a more positive light of allowing both teams more plays.

thank you.

Offline bawags06

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 02:27:46 PM »
Our state uses a similar timing system in blowout games. 35+ in the second half and the clock runs...stopping only briefly for first downs, and for changes of possession, scores, or timeouts.

Making a travesty of the game is a big deal, but I'm not thinking this rises to that level. I'm more curious as to why the coach sent his FG unit onto the field instead of his offense, but still don't think this is a travesty for several reasons. First, it's Week 1. He wants his backups to get playing time. Next, you said it was early in the second half. In our state, once 35-point timing starts, it cannot be stopped, even if the game gets close again. It is understandable that early in the second half of the first game of the year a coach wouldn't want a running clock yet.

I wouldn't be thrilled to see the QB take a knee in that situation either, but in reality, we are asking them to run the appearance of a real play, even though they don't want to score yet. Is either one better or worse?

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 03:11:33 PM »
Agree with bawags. 9-5 is an option that should be used only as an absolute last resort.  The example (maybe from Redding’s) that comes to mind is a team that repeatedly fouls when the penalty is half the distance to the goal.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2018, 01:13:50 PM »
Be very, very careful deeming something a travesty.  Some coaches despise running clock rules and will avoid scenarios that put them into play.  It doesn't make it a travesty of the game anymore than that same coach calling a time out to try and score late unless the game.

A travesty should shock your core.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 04:12:34 PM »
Travesty: something that fails to represent the values and qualities that it is intended to represent, in a way that is shocking or offensive:

I don’t think choosing not to kick an extra point fits that definition. I’m like the others- using the travesty rule needs to be the nuclear option.


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Offline prab

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 04:24:10 PM »
Agree with bawags. 9-5 is an option that should be used only as an absolute last resort.  The example (maybe from Redding’s) that comes to mind is a team that repeatedly fouls when the penalty is half the distance to the goal.
Actually had this happen in a JV game a long, long, long time ago. 

After having advised the fouling team that their behavior was rude and crude and socially unacceptable and suggesting that they cease and desist forthwith, and thereafter not noticing any marked improvement in their deportment, we wound up calling the game over with a couple of minutes still left on the clock.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 10:55:16 AM »
That's Rare, but so is the penalty and that's what it's designed for.  Years back, two neighboring schools, both winless were scheduled to play each other on the last weekend of the season  (before playoffs).  Unfortunately neither team seemed much interested in playing football, and behaving like spoiled brats causing trouble was spreading on both sides.

Talking to the players, and the coaches, wasn't producing the desired reactions, a zillion penalties, multiple disqualifications (which at the time carried over to Basketball) fell on deaf ears.  Try as we might, we were getting nowhere, but closer to an inevitable riot, so about 2 minutes into the 4th quarter the R had enough, and after breaking up the last squabble, ended it.

No discussion, no detailed explanation, just announced he (we) were fed up and the contest was over with both teams disqualified.  I never saw his game report, which he said was more like a book report.  On the field neither Head Coach said a word, I think they were thankful this farce and their season was over, and none of us ever heard a word, or question, from either school.

Sometimes teenagers can be a real PIA, and sending them to their room before something really bad happens is the ONLY answer.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2019, 12:41:29 PM »
By rule ,they can't "pass" on a PAT, but could certainly take a knee. When we enter running time, we use the TIPS formula and only stop the clock on them....

T = team timeouts
I = injury
P = penalties
S = score

With the exception of a free kick, we start the clock on RFP on above.

Travesty ,IMHO, is in the eyes of the beholder. A couple of years ago, in a blowout and near the end of the game, this occurred :
 (1) Leading team intercepted a pass and was heading for a TD;
 (2) runner stopped at the 5 and took a knee  ??? ::) :o ;
 (3) our thoughts  yEs: ^talk :!# yEs: z^ were "is he just showing off ??? ??? ";
 (4) his team put in a mentally challenged player;
 (5) the opponents realized and, after a TO by their coach, allowed him to score;
 (6) his teammates raised him to their shoulders as opponents patted him on his back.

There wasn't any thought of a travesty....many.... z^ z^ z^ z^ included... had :'( tears.  tiphat:

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2019, 01:45:30 PM »
By rule ,they can't "pass" on a PAT, but could certainly take a knee. When we enter running time, we use the TIPS formula and only stop the clock on them....

T = team timeouts
I = injury
P = penalties
S = score

With the exception of a free kick, we start the clock on RFP on above.

FL moved away from TIPS a few years ago.  Once we get to a running clock, we only stop for Team TO, Injury, or USC foul (theoretically for the WH to remind the coach that another USC will result in ejection of the player).  For other penalties and after score, the clock ticks away.  I'm in favor of the change.  Most of the time, when we get to a running clock we're more concerned with preventing fights than anything else anyway.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2019, 09:10:25 AM »
Exactly. I wish my state would adopt a running clock procedure. As the present we can invoke a running clock, but both coaches have to agree, and there are no guidelines in place on how to administer.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2019, 10:39:06 AM »
Exactly. I wish my state would adopt a running clock procedure. As the present we can invoke a running clock, but both coaches have to agree, and there are no guidelines in place on how to administer.


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It makes the transmission  much smoother, Calhoun, if there is a stated procedure. Most coaches are of A-type personalities and if asked if they want to go running time often understood as "Do you want to give up?"

I wanted to share an epilogue to the challenged kid scoring a TD ,on my previous post, that I felt you guys might enjoy :

Often, once the last whistle blows, we disappear in a cloud of dust. That night we stood and watched the handshake line ,as did nearly everyone in attendance. Mr. TD - #11, hugged every opponent and many hugged him back. The biggest hug came from the opposing coach :thumbup.

The following summer my wife and entered a restaurant and spotted the kid (wearing #11) and his parents. After we were seated, I went over to his table and introduced myself as the ref in the game that he scored a touchdown. He giggled, jumped up and gave me a high-five. His mother whispered in my ear : "That was the happiest day of his life, he hates to take off his jersey , even to be washed :) !" His father responded : " Thanks for remembering and rekindling our memory  :thumbup ". There were tears  :'( in his parents and my  :'( eyes. #11 was just  ;D grinning.  yEs:

IMHO, sports is a important learning tool in the growth of our youth AND football is the greatest sport. The challenge of focus, hard work, teamwork and timing (only sync swimming requires more) along with the learning that not all close calls will go their way, provides the building blocks of life not necessarily leaned in the classroom.

While intentionally allowing the opponents to score may seen like a travesty to some, I considered it an act of humanity. I hope that many of you would feel the same.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 10:42:20 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2019, 10:53:44 AM »
Absolutely  Ralph. Great story and reminder or our purpose. For the record, if I was the coach, I wouldn’t want to give up either, or more importantly, wouldn’t want to give the impression to my players/staff that I was willing to give up. Which is why a standard procedure would benefit my state greatly. 


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Offline FLAHL

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2019, 12:38:23 PM »
Most coaches are of A-type personalities and if asked if they want to go running time often understood as "Do you want to give up?"

You’re definitely right about that Ralph.  But instead of thinking that they’re “giving up” maybe they should consider:
Do I want my 195 pound OT squaring off against their 270 pound DE all night?
Do I want my 180 pound LB trying to tackle their 225 pound RB all night?

Great story about #11.  I hope I officiate long enough to be a part of a “travesty” like that one.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 08:55:10 PM by FLAHL »

Offline riffraft

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2019, 09:21:44 AM »
Absolutely  Ralph. Great story and reminder or our purpose. For the record, if I was the coach, I wouldn’t want to give up either, or more importantly, wouldn’t want to give the impression to my players/staff that I was willing to give up. Which is why a standard procedure would benefit my state greatly. 


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a few years ago, I was doing a JV game. The score was 45 to 7 with about 2:50 left in the game when a player on the losing team was hurt to the extent that we had to call the emergency squad. About 20 minutes into the delay, I asked both coaches if they would be willing to call the game. The losing coach refused saying he didn't want to teach his kids to quit. I told him alright and about about 30 minutes later we started back up and finished the game. Personally I think the coach was giving the wrong impression by continuing the game. Sometimes coaches lose sight of the big picture.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2019, 09:55:28 AM »
Sometimes, how you ask a question can help direct the answer you may be looking for. Asking a losing Coach, "Do YOU want to authorize/convert to a running clock" often leads to a negative response, for any number of reasons.

Asking a little longer, leaning question (like: Coach, it appears this contest has been decided, rather than risk unnecessary injury or harm, to starters or substitutes,  I'd like to run the clock, OK") often comes across as less threatening or suggesting of surrender or giving up, and produces the desired result.

Sometimes even more subtle persuasion may be necessary, but the objective is usually worth the added effort.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2019, 10:38:11 AM »
Exactly. My wings handle it like this - (to the losing coach): "Coach, they (the winning team) are ready to run the clock whenever you are." Sometimes we get, "Hell yeah, I'm ready. Let's get it over with." Sometimes we get, "Thanks, I'll let ya know." and then, there's the "I'm not a quitter" response we all dread....

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2019, 11:59:28 AM »
Prior to NC instituting our running clock rule, we had to tap dance around the mandate to "do not initiate a running clock conversation".
Now its mandatory once we hit 42 pt lead after halftime, no discussion required.



Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Unfair Acts
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 06:04:19 PM »
First to echo what was already mentioned, we dont ask the coach, "you want to run the clock?"
Instead, "coach, we're running it, right?"

Further, I've heard of some ECO who perhaps 'mistakenly' assumed we were running it when we reached the threshold.