Author Topic: The new rule will........  (Read 3238 times)

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Offline Snapper

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2024, 08:35:23 AM »
My wording "excused" was misleading, it would still be a PF just not DQ. I didn't think that it was a terrible idea, I just didn't think it was a good idea  :).

Ah, that makes more sense.  Thanks.

Offline toma

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2024, 09:35:39 AM »
POE's will stress the importance of knee pads.
Will coaches take ownership on this and ensure-enforce that knees are covered?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2024, 10:36:29 AM »
POE's will stress the importance of knee pads.
Will coaches take ownership on this and ensure-enforce that knees are covered?
IMHO, a walk-thru in pre-game should be able to correct any problem areas. It will be stressed tothe coaches that it is a safety issue and in high school safety comes first.

Online dammitbobby

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2024, 12:26:15 PM »
IMHO, a walk-thru in pre-game should be able to correct any problem areas. It will be stressed tothe coaches that it is a safety issue and in high school safety comes first.

One need only look at NCAA and Texas high school football to see that is just pie in the sky. I guarantee you, yall will have the exact same problem - and complaints - that we have with knee pads if you don’t have a strong enforcement mechanism.

Or, just make it optional and make everybody happy.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2024, 12:46:23 PM »
My wording "excused" was misleading, it would still be a PF just not DQ. I didn't think that it was a terrible idea, I just didn't think it was a good idea  :).

I’d like to think that most officials can tell the difference between “punching at the ball” and “throwing a punch in anger.”  I wouldn’t even consider DQing a player for the former.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2024, 01:05:48 PM »
Ralph, thankyou for the other 5 propose rule changes for 2024. Ralph, do think the encroachment on free-kicks will be on the 2025 propose rule changes. It seem to generate some interest in changing the rule to live-ball offside  from dead-ball-encroachment. The coaches seem to like this propose change 55%. pct. Officials 57%. pct. Ralph even you like this propose rule change. What are the changes of this being on 2025 football questionnaire.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2024, 01:11:10 PM by ted skoundrianos »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2024, 01:28:24 PM »
Ralph, thankyou for the other 5 propose rule changes for 2024. Ralph, do think the encroachment on free-kicks will be on the 2025 propose rule changes. It seem to generate some interest in changing the rule to live-ball offside  from dead-ball-encroachment. The coaches seem to like this propose change 55%. pct. Officials 57%. pct. Ralph even you like this propose rule change. What are the changes of this being on 2025 football questionnaire.
IMHO, the downfall of live-ball offside on free kicks was that other free kick violations such as not having at least 4 on both sides of the kicker and such remaining dead ball fouls would cause some confusion. It may be back in modified form to include other free kick fouls.

Offline refjeff

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2024, 06:27:20 PM »
POE's will stress the importance of knee pads.
Will coaches take ownership on this and ensure-enforce that knees are covered?
  Nope.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2024, 06:57:10 AM »
We've been doing walk-hru's during pre-games for years, looking for knee pads uncovered, eye shade turned into war paint, knots on jerseys and the like. R & LJ take the home, U & BJ take the visitors while HL deals with chain crew. Problems are pointed out ot their coaches and seem to quickly corrected. I don't foresee a problem here, but I'm not there, were you guys are.

Offline Rich

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2024, 02:13:24 PM »
The Officials' Manual Committee's starts once full meeting ends. It is made up of active officials, some not on the rules committee. This being a publish year, their meeting may go late into the evening and sometimes into the following morning. I've served three terms of four years on the committee and a lot of thought is put into it.  Remember, guys, that the book is only a guideline, not a rule.

Where I am, we're expected to follow the book.  For example, moving the U to the backfield will just not be allowed here until that's an option in the manual. Also, we handle kick mechanics by the manual here as well - the U never goes under an upright here unlike some neighboring states.

I'm fine with how things are decided, but we've had a lot of Us rolled up the last few years and I'd love to see optional coverages in place.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2024, 11:41:24 AM »
Ralph, why not add illegal formation on kicking team as a live ball foul. Then add live-ball offside on the kicking team. Then both would be live ball fouls.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2024, 01:16:10 PM »
Ralph, why not add illegal formation on kicking team as a live ball foul. Then add live-ball offside on the kicking team. Then both would be live ball fouls.
I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen. IMHO, blowing the ball dead as soon as it's kicked still causes contact. This would prevent it.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2024, 01:27:42 PM »
Where I am, we're expected to follow the book.  For example, moving the U to the backfield will just not be allowed here until that's an option in the manual. Also, we handle kick mechanics by the manual here as well - the U never goes under an upright here unlike some neighboring states.

I'm fine with how things are decided, but we've had a lot of Us rolled up the last few years and I'd love to see optional coverages in place.
IMHO, following the book keeps everyone on the same page. While there are some states experimenting with U in the backfield and U having a pipe on kicks, I feel, that in 5 man, you are losing a good view of the line's initial charge which is a lot of illegal stuff can occur. Most roughing the snapper calls occur on PAT kicks, where R players are usually jammed up in attempt to block. U ill not get a good view of that from the pipes and his focus will be on the kick not the contact.

Offline Rich

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2024, 02:10:33 PM »
IMHO, following the book keeps everyone on the same page. While there are some states experimenting with U in the backfield and U having a pipe on kicks, I feel, that in 5 man, you are losing a good view of the line's initial charge which is a lot of illegal stuff can occur. Most roughing the snapper calls occur on PAT kicks, where R players are usually jammed up in attempt to block. U ill not get a good view of that from the pipes and his focus will be on the kick not the contact.

I don't disagree.  Would be harder to see chop blocks on the line, for certain. I am mainly considering the safety of our Us, who have gotten beaten up the last few years.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2024, 03:52:42 PM »
I don't disagree.  Would be harder to see chop blocks on the line, for certain. I am mainly considering the safety of our Us, who have gotten beaten up the last few years.

There's a certain "it" factor that comes with being a good umpire. I've worked with the same one for the past 15 years, and he's never been close to being hit. He has the awareness that can't be taught. As to the topic, I would much rather have him in the traditional position, because of everything that has been mentioned.

Offline hef333

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2024, 07:24:04 AM »
Very true, I've been Umpire for 28 years, so much better on the defensive side to be able to see things you'll miss on the other side....the main thing I teach new guys is not to be moving around over there....they see you, they will move if they are coming right at you.  If you move...too much of a chance you're moving into someone's path. Gotta learn to Pirouette!   sNiCkErS  I've been knocked down 3 times in my career....but one of them was by Micah Parsons, so I'm taking a pass on that one  :bOW...he was at RB, and LB stepped on my foot and I had nothing to do but get trucked....I have the pic....I have to get him to sign it someday!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2024, 08:26:35 AM »
On my way to becoming a white hat I umped for 5 years. I took the advise of an ole' vet ,who stressed read the guards as they will tell you where the play is going. His advise was:

(1) IF the guard pulls, focus on him as he will be the key blocker to the play where a foul is possible.
(2) IF the guard retreats, move up as a pass is coming.
(3) If the guard charges, git otta' town as the play is coming your way.
(4) Your most important duty is to stay safe. You don't need to be on top of the play, or the play may end up on top of you.

Oh, I got still a few bumps and bruises and enjoy R much more as the players seem to be running away from you than at you.  z^

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2024, 09:15:42 AM »
That's why umpires get paid more.

(Don't they?)

Offline hef333

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2024, 10:21:09 AM »
Paid more? NO!  :!# BUT...I have been doing it long enough that I get to call long or short sleeves on Friday nights! 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2024, 12:16:21 PM »
On my way to becoming a white hat I umped for 5 years. I took the advise of an ole' vet ,who stressed read the guards as they will tell you where the play is going. His advise was:

(1) IF the guard pulls, focus on him as he will be the key blocker to the play where a foul is possible.
(2) IF the guard retreats, move up as a pass is coming.
(3) If the guard charges, git otta' town as the play is coming your way.
(4) Your most important duty is to stay safe. You don't need to be on top of the play, or the play may end up on top of you.

Oh, I got still a few bumps and bruises and enjoy R much more as the players seem to be running away from you than at you.  z^

As an Umpire, you also get the opportunity to whisper special (private) words of "guidance" & "patience" into helmet ear holes, to hopefully avoid unnecessary issues &/or problems.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2024, 08:09:36 PM »
 Ralph. could you propose a 2025 rule change making illegal formation on free-kicks a live ball foul as well as free-kick live ball offside too.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2024, 12:31:32 PM »
Ralph. could you propose a 2025 rule change making illegal formation on free-kicks a live ball foul as well as free-kick live ball offside too.
I'll leave that to the author of this year's failed proposal.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2024, 01:06:19 PM »
That's why umpires get paid more.

(Don't they?)


We do?  Which state(s) do that?   ;D
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2024, 01:11:14 PM »
Ralph. could you propose a 2025 rule change making illegal formation on free-kicks a live ball foul as well as free-kick live ball offside too.


I was told by a 40 veteran R in Rhode Island that the NFHS has always frowned on "free plays" potentially resulting in do-overs which is the primary reasoning on calling fouls that occurred before the ball becomes live DB fouls.  Why would they pick 1 or 2 to change that?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: The new rule will........
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2024, 07:48:42 AM »

I was told by a 40 veteran R in Rhode Island that the NFHS has always frowned on "free plays" potentially resulting in do-overs which is the primary reasoning on calling fouls that occurred before the ball becomes live DB fouls.  Why would they pick 1 or 2 to change that?

NFHS rules prioritize safety.  The theory is that kickoffs are inherently more dangerous than scrimmage plays, so the live-ball fouls would lessen the number of kickoffs.