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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: SCHSref on August 29, 2014, 11:51:14 AM
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Had this happen two nights ago in a JV game
KO from 40. Kick goes OOB without being touched. Flag thrown. Ref goes to captain and tells him options and asks what he wants to do. Captain tells him to back it up 5 re-kick. Coach on sidelines goes nuts when it is explained to him. Tells the crew, "I have options!" The umpire (I know, should have been referee) tells him that the options are forfeited after the captain makes the decision. Coach looks at us and says, "You're going to call that on a Wednesday night???"
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If it's not obvious, ask the coach, not the kid. I don't care if it's Wednesday or Friday or Sunday.
If for some reason you feel you have to ask the kid, do so within earshot of the coach so he can "advise".
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I had one of these recently. The captain chose 3rd and 10 instead of 2nd and 22 (holding). I asked "are you sure" and he didn't hesitate and repeated himself. The coach got P.O.'d but it was too late. I'm sure the captain learned a lesson. I have no problem with this but in retrospect I wish we would have done a better job of making the coach aware of the situation so he could tell his captain what to do. Maybe through the wing official.
They intercepted the ball on the next play so I think they got over it.
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If for some reason you feel you have to ask the kid, do so within earshot of the coach so he can "advise".
ALWAYS ask the Captain, that's his JOB, and the respect you pay him for being a Captain can pay enormous dividends elsewhere during the game, when, and if, you might need assistance. Of course, whenever possible and especially with confusing or complex choices, handle explanations within earshot of the HC, so he can offer guidance when necessary.
NFHS 2-32 "Player Designations":
Art. 5: A captain of a team is a player designated to represent his team during:
a. The pregame and overtime cointoss (Limit of 4 captains in uniform)
b. Penalty desicions following a foul.
c. Ball placement on a Try, KO, after a safety, after a FC, after an awarded FC,, after a touchback
and to start an overtime period
If a Captain (alone) seems to be making a "bad choice", there's nothing wrong with suggesting, "Perhaps I didn't explain your choices carefully enough, allow me to review them again, slowly....."
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In high school it's the captain that makes the choice. Therefore it's up to the coach to make sure that the captain looks to him for the decision if that's how the coach wants it done.
I'll ask the captain, and try to make sure he understands and I'll help him as much as I can. If he wants to look to the coach for help, that's fine with me. But if he understands the choice and chooses 3& 10, we move on.
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The R (with help from the wings) should be looking at the coach to be sure he understands the options before taking the answer from the kid. Even many of the big boys do it that way. It keeps the crew out of the soup.
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There's nothing in the rules that specifies where the captain has to be when he makes his choice. If it's something complex, I'll walk him toward his sideline so his coach can hear.
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A few years back, K, down 4 with 10 seconds remaining, attempts an onside free kick, commits kick catching interference, and recovers. I find R's captain, walk him directly in front of his head coach, and present the three options then available under NFHS rules, with these head motions:
K has committed kick catching interference.
:!# You can decline the penalty and take the result of the play--they get the ball. :!#
or . . .
:!# You can move them back 15 yards and make them kick again. :!#
OR . . .
yEs: YOU CAN ACCEPT AN AWARDED FAIR CATCH AT THE SPOT OF THE FOUL. WOULD YOU LIKE TO ACCEPT AN AWARDED FAIR CATCH AT THE SPOT OF THE FOUL? I'M AWARDING YOU A FAIR CATCH AT THE SPOT OF THE FOUL! yEs:
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Consider the possibility that when we bend over backwards to insure that the captain does not make a "poor" choice, we are assisting his team AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER TEAM! NFHS could eliminate this problem by changing the penalty enforcement procedure to having the referee ask the head coach what his choice is. BUT THE NFHS HAS NOT DONE SO!!
This echoes the discussion of days gone by on this forum where we discussed "helping" captains make a "good" choice (defer or receive) of options after the coin toss instead of a "poor" choice (kick).
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when we bend over backwards to insure that the captain does not make a "poor" choice, we are assisting his team AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER TEAM!
Interesting interpretation of this scenario.
But to me, it is simply preventative officiating.
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Consider the possibility that when we bend over backwards to insure that the captain does not make a "poor" choice, we are assisting his team AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER TEAM!
I don't disagree in theory, but considering the game involved and the atmosphere of my then-Association, had there been any other outcome, I would have been That Guy. I have been That Guy before. None of us like being That Guy.
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Explain options, to the extent the party your explaining is certain to understands them, seems to fall short of "bending over backwards", and as a service available to both teams at all times provides neither an advantage nor disadvantage to either team. Assuring an appropriate decision is rendered assesses no additional expense to either team.
Recognizing NFHS contests are played by interscholastic athletes, the NFHS places emphasis on the overall learning opportunities available, including handling of responsibilities which are designated to team Captains.
Learning to deal with and discharge the responsibilities of a team Captain is a valuable teaching opportunity, apparently, NFHS considers worthy of minor complications that may occasionally arise, but considering the variety of easy and innocuous adjustments readily available to avoid such complications are of little practical concern.
Assisting ANYONE to make a proper selection of a choice they are fully entitled to make is a valuable service rather than a problem.
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No, we are not making a decision at the expense of the other team. The other team committed the foul.
"Coach, I would do the same thing for you if the shoe were on the other foot."
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If it's not obvious, ask the coach, not the kid. I don't care if it's Wednesday or Friday or Sunday.
If for some reason you feel you have to ask the kid, do so within earshot of the coach so he can "advise".
Could not agree more. Even at the college and pro level you can see the R looking to the sideline for the coach's choice on the non-obvious enforcements.
In your pre-game with the head coach, let him know that on non-obvious enforcements, you will let him know the options. When talking to the captains before the game, let them know you're going to let their coach know the options and that he can consult with his coach.
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If it's obvious, enforce the foul and move on. If it's not obvious, save yourself a lot of trouble and ask the coach. Don't get the captains involved. We all know that for the most part, the "captains" are simply the guys that get to go out for the coin toss that particular game. They have no idea what to do on a foul and are going to be looking to their coach anyway. Why not just cut out the middle man? I don't care what the freaking rule/mechanics book says. Use some common sense.
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I don't care what the freaking rule/mechanics book says.
I guess that about sums it up! What other rules and/or mechanics don't you care about?
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Why not just cut out the middle man? I don't care what the freaking rule/mechanics book says. Use some common sense.
Wow! Forrest Guump was right, "Stupid is as stupid does"
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I always work through the coach. Will continue to work through the coach. It keeps my crew out of trouble and the coaches appreciate it. You're free to do different.
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What's the difference between asking the coach to make the decision or the official making the decision for the captain? At no place in the rule book does it ever say "if the captain makes a stupid decision, just ignore hime and do what you know is right." That thinking reaches the pinnacle of arrogance. If you're going to go by the rules, go by the rules. Give the captain his options and let him make up his mind. If however, you want to do the wise thing, ask the coach.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If you're going to go by the rules, go by the rules. Give the captain his options and let him make up his mind. If however, you want to do the wise thing, ask the coach.
Reminds me about coin tosses. I've run into a few arrogant white hats in my time. Red team wins the coin toss, referee asks him if he wants to kick, receive, defer or choose a side. He says kick. White hats allows him to do this, and gets into an argument before the 2nd half with the Red team coach and players where they can't receive the ball. White hat says this is a 'learning lesson' for the Red team. Sigh. The players probably never knew the rule in the first place, and the white hat is just being a jackass with his 'rules knowledge'. I bet the players and coaches instead of taking this as a 'lesson' take this as the referees are jackasses.
I simply ask the captain if he wants the ball. If he says no, I ask him 'Do you want to defer to the 2nd half?'. Causes a lot less confusion. If he says 'kick', I tell him 'Are you sure? It probably means you'll kick off both halves and not receive the ball in the 2nd half.'
We have one white hat who loves to show his 'rules knowledge' asking the captain after every fair catch 'Do you want the ball or do you want to kick?' The captains look quizzical, and he then says 'You want the ball?' which they then reply 'Yes'.
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If you're going to go by the rules, go by the rules.
You make it sound like "going by the rules" is optional.
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We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.
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We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.
Goes to show, just a little common sense and practical application goes a long, LONG way in avoiding anyone making an unnecessary mistake or looking foolish.
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We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.
In addition to that, when I give the options to the captain whose team won the toss, I ask him "do you want to receive, or defer until the second half?" Starting a game with a team winning a toss and choosing to kick - rather than defer - is a sure way to make things tense with one sideline right from the start. A bit of preventive officiating can save a lot of grief for the rest of the night.
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Keep in mind, no coach will EVER complain that you asked him. He will certainly complain if you ask a captain and he makes a dumb choice.
...I know what the manual says, but that part of the manual hasn't been changed since 1907
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You make it sound like "going by the rules" is optional.
Apparently it is, because ignoring a captain's stupid decision is not in the rules, but as some have posted here, they think it's ok. My point was, ( and I think you know) that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't criticize an official for asking the coach, and at the same time think it's ok for the official to make the decision for the kid.
Lastly, while we are talking about enforcing the rules, let me ask you a question - do you call that backside hold away from the play? . . . .because that's in the rules too. :!#
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Goes to show, just a little common sense and practical application goes a long, LONG way in avoiding anyone making an unnecessary mistake or looking foolish.
MS solved the problem by having the coin toss with the coaches during pre game discussion. We only have a simulated toss with the captains before the game.
OAN, I have never had a coach upset with me because I asked him what he wanted to do about a penalty.
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Often, all it takes to avoid unnecessary confrontations is a thorough knowledge of what the objective is, the ability to recognize the great expanse of opportunities between "never" and "always" and the willingness and common sense to apply the flexibility to find what satisfies a consensus that works without sacrificing the objective.
It is truly RARE that only one specific size fits all.
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Just this past Friday this occurred in my game :
Me : "Captain, you've won the toss and....". The captain interrupted and said : "We'll KICK" ::) :o. I responded ,with a smile : "I'm the elder, I'll speak first ; ;) you can DEFER your choice until the 2nd half and chose to get the ball then..." Captain : "...Sounds good, we'll do that..." At halftime I advised his coach of the near blunder . Morale of this story : If you see a trainwreck coming, try to stop the train...or in Mainer terms : "Stop your lobster boat before it snags a shoal."
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Just this past Friday this occurred in my game :
Me : "Captain, you've won the toss and....". The captain interrupted and said : "We'll KICK" ::) :o. I responded ,with a smile : "I'm the elder, I'll speak first ; ;) you can DEFER your choice until the 2nd half and chose to get the ball then..." Captain : "...Sounds good, we'll do that..." At halftime I advised his coach of the near blunder . Morale of this story : If you see a trainwreck coming, try to stop the train...or in Mainer terms : "Stop your lobster boat before it snags a shoal."
When I was younger and in a different sport, I did things without regards to common sense because I was smarter than the coach. Let's just say it never turned out pleasant for the smart guy! I was technically correct but learned early in my soccer career that preventive officiating can extend to more items than just those that occur when the ball is in play. I didn't always learn the easy way, either. Keep someone from making a bad decision if you can. We try to talk players out of holds, being stupid after the play, players line up in the neutral zone, etc. This is no different.
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Just this past Friday this occurred in my game :
Me : "Captain, you've won the toss and....". The captain interrupted and said : "We'll KICK" ::) :o. I responded ,with a smile : "I'm the elder, I'll speak first ; ;) you can DEFER your choice until the 2nd half and chose to get the ball then..." Captain : "...Sounds good, we'll do that..." At halftime I advised his coach of the near blunder . Morale of this story : If you see a trainwreck coming, try to stop the train...or in Mainer terms : "Stop your lobster boat before it snags a shoal."
If a player says "kick", I heard "defer" ;D
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Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain? If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice?
I did have ONE team elect to kick off to start the second half. The coach said that he had a good kicker and thought that his defense could pin the receivers deep in their own territory and hold them forcing a 3 and out. However, that was the one and only time I ever saw a team choose what most of us (according to the comments on this thread) under most circumstances would consider to be a "poor" choice.
I have NEVER had a team elect to defend a goal after winning the coin toss.
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Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain? If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice?
I had one, not in a HS game, but at the highest level of youth ball. I asked the captain on the sideline "What do you want to do if you win the toss?" and he said that he wanted to kick. I called the coach over and explained that he'd end up kicking to start both halves. He said that was fine because his defense was much better than his offense. Of course they won the toss, and the captain elected to kick. They kicked and A's first offensive play was a 70 yard TD run. The coach was right though. His defense was much better than his offense. I think we had a running clock before halftime (legal in youth ball in our area).
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We always ask the coach before the game - what do you want to do if you win the coin toss?
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Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain? If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice?
I did have ONE team elect to kick off to start the second half. The coach said that he had a good kicker and thought that his defense could pin the receivers deep in their own territory and hold them forcing a 3 and out. However, that was the one and only time I ever saw a team choose what most of us (according to the comments on this thread) under most circumstances would consider to be a "poor" choice.
I have NEVER had a team elect to defend a goal after winning the coin toss.
Yes!!!!
Coaches before game flip, winner says defer, loser says kick and winner say we defend north end!
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Yes!!!!
Coaches before game flip, winner says defer, loser says kick and winner say we defend north end!
Did the loser of the toss give any explanation for why he knowingly and willingly chose to kick after the winner chose to defer?
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Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain? If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice?
I did have ONE team elect to kick off to start the second half. The coach said that he had a good kicker and thought that his defense could pin the receivers deep in their own territory and hold them forcing a 3 and out. However, that was the one and only time I ever saw a team choose what most of us (according to the comments on this thread) under most circumstances would consider to be a "poor" choice.
I have NEVER had a team elect to defend a goal after winning the coin toss.
Yes, once. Coach had a good kicker wanted to pin the opposing team down near their own end zone, which they did. Ray Rice ran for an 85 yard TD two plays later.
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yes, coach chose to defend a goal to start second half. "I'll take the wind in the third and trust my defense in the fourth." Visiting coach about wet his pants when he found out he could receive the ball.
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Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain? If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice?
I have a better one...
It's OT and the coin toss. The winning captain wishes to defer. Really? You sure about that? LOL
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I have a better one...
It's OT and the coin toss. The winning captain wishes to defer. Really? You sure about that? LOL
You bring up a good point. The options should be discussed prior to the toss.
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Defer? :!# :!#
Is that even an option?
"Interesting" is the wording of the choices for the toss winner: "offense or defense first, or designating the end of the field..."
Is there another "first" - as suggested by the "or"? Is "choice of end" actually intended to be a third option for the toss winner?
Who in their right mind would take such an option? Wind, water, or whatever couldn't justify giving up the offense/defense option in subsequent series. What official would ever offer that option? pi1eOn
Suggestion (Ralph): "The winner of the toss shall be first given the choice of offense or defense; then, the loser will have the option of at which end this series will begin. If still tied.....reverse..."
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We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.
I take that a step further. We ask the coaches what he wants to do in the pregame meeting, then when the captains arrive at midfield the R and U ask their respective captains what they want to do if they win the toss. If anything is different, we don't walk out until we get approval from the coach. Once I had a coach change his mind after he talked to us. Didn't let us know, but when the team captain told us he wanted to receive (the coach had earlier said defer), we waited a second and made sure we got approval from the coach first.
Then at the actual toss, whoever wins the toss I ask a leading question. "White you have one the toss. Your coach has notified us that you would like to defer your option to the second half. Is that correct?"
Never had any issues.
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Defer? :!# :!#
Is that even an option?
"Interesting" is the wording of the choices for the toss winner: "offense or defense first, or designating the end of the field..."
Is there another "first" - as suggested by the "or"? Is "choice of end" actually intended to be a third option for the toss winner?
Who in their right mind would take such an option? Wind, water, or whatever couldn't justify giving up the offense/defense option in subsequent series. What official would ever offer that option? pi1eOn
Suggestion (Ralph): "The winner of the toss shall be first given the choice of offense or defense; then, the loser will have the option of at which end this series will begin. If still tied.....reverse..."
I know it's not likely but it is possible that a team could pick the end of the field. Assume that AB trained the kicker of the team that winds the toss and he knows the kid can kick the 27 yard field go against the wind. The other team's kicker has been having trouble making the PAT all night especially when he is at that end of the field. Team wins the toss, designates the windy end at the place to start and will likely get the ball first (most of the time I see teams take defense first).
If the score a touchdown and make the extra point great. If not they get the field goal. Next team gets their chance. If he score a touchdown, then they have to get the PAT kick to tie or go for two. Since they were having trouble with the kicks already it is possible to win this way.
I know this is an unlikely scenario but never underestimate the level of sneakiness of a football coach. They will use every advantage they can possible think of to win a game. Plus the rules tell us we have to give these three options.
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Defer? :!# :!#
Is that even an option?
"Interesting" is the wording of the choices for the toss winner: "offense or defense first, or designating the end of the field..."
Is there another "first" - as suggested by the "or"? Is "choice of end" actually intended to be a third option for the toss winner?
Who in their right mind would take such an option? Wind, water, or whatever couldn't justify giving up the offense/defense option in subsequent series. What official would ever offer that option? pi1eOn
Suggestion (Ralph): "The winner of the toss shall be first given the choice of offense or defense; then, the loser will have the option of at which end this series will begin. If still tied.....reverse..."
Even if interrupted by a captain, I always begin explaining the options by saying " Y O U C A N D E F E R Y O U R C H O I C E T O T H E S E C O N D H A L F...." yEs: I'll then pause and the captain will usually reply : " Ayuh, that's what the coach wants" or " We want da' ball now"...IMHO, one of our top priorities is to run the game smoothly. Watching a trainwreck at the coin toss is not a good start pi1eOn.
Regarding choices of OT....during our 3 minute recess ,our umpire an I will be explaining the upcoming options to the coaches. I've had coaches ask : " Which is better ??? ??? ?" ; to his I'd respond : " Going on defense first gives you the same position as a home team batting last in an extra inning game." The coach will usually inform the captains in front of me and the umpire.
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Did the loser of the toss give any explanation for why he knowingly and willingly chose to kick after the winner chose to defer?
I was really too stunned to ask for a reason. Just scratched my head and walked away.
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I was really too stunned to ask for a reason. Just scratched my head and walked away.
I believe that you made a wise choice! hEaDbAnG
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My WH always asks the coach what he wants to do if his team wins the toss. Friday night home team coach says kick. We must have both look dumbfounded because he quickly corrected himself.
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My WH always asks the coach what he wants to do if his team wins the toss.
I did that in my pregame meeting with both coaches on Friday. Then the home team wins the toss, and says "we want to kick". I said, "OK, so you want to defer receiving until the second half, right?" He agreed right away.
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It seems, in summary, there is a wide variety of ways a helpful Referee can assist an excited, and somewhat emotional, student athlete from making a wrong decision, as well it should be.
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It seems, in summary, there is a wide variety of ways a helpful Referee can assist an excited, and somewhat emotional, student athlete from making a wrong decision, as well it should be.
We'll have enough challenging / argumentative calls to made in the impending game. The coin toss should not be one. :)
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We'll have enough challenging / argumentative calls to made in the impending game. The coin toss should not be one. :)
+A Billion
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We'll have enough challenging / argumentative calls to made in the impending game. The coin toss should not be one. :)
...ask Phil Luckett. :sTiR:
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We'll have enough challenging / argumentative calls to made in the impending game. The coin toss should not be one. :)
I've heard of a lifesaver being used in the cointoss
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I almost had to do rock paper scissors the other day. Fortunately, the coach had a nickel in his pocket. :-[
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A few of the schools up here mic us up. "Testing one,two,three" ,to me, is boring. In lieu, I ask the assembling frenzied masses : "Does anyone in the stands have change for a dollar for the coin toss ??? ????" :)
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There is a free app for the iPhone that is a coin toss app, even has a moving coin showing the "flip". I heard of an R using his phone for the toss. State heard about it and said, "Don't do that again."
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I wouldn't dare carry my cell phone on the field. That would be the day I end up sandwiched between two Bubbas and end up falling on it.
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I guess that about sums it up! What other rules and/or mechanics don't you care about?
Do you ask the opponent of the scoring team if he wants the other team to kick off every time there is a touchdown in your games?
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Do you ask the opponent of the scoring team if he wants the other team to kick off every time there is a touchdown in your games?
:bOW
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Before the game: we ask coaches what they want to do if they win the toss. Visitors want to receive; Home wants to defer.
Are we required to do the whole coin flip "fandango"? If not, would you?
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Do you ask the opponent of the scoring team if he wants the other team to kick off every time there is a touchdown in your games?
Was it here I read about the time somebody, somowhere acutally asked that question and the coach said "Can you believe that sonofabuiscuiteater asked me if I wanna kick?"
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Of course coin toss is required (3-2-1, 3-2-2). This is further elaborated in the Official's Manual which is just as "official" as the rule book. There is a whole section that tells you how to conduct this. If your State and League allow it the coin toss can be held "off field," in which case there may be a simulated coin toss.
No matter what the coaches say pre-game the actual toss has to be held at some point.
Now I really hope we are through with this topic.
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You can come down from your high-horse, John. The question was posed as the result of the discussion about whether decisions should be made by coaches or captains.
I have witnessed and experienced - and had to clean-up - too many f@#*-ups to trust ANY decision to a player - captain or not. So, at the risk of suffering your indignity, I will always ask the coaches what they want; and if one says "I want to receive" and the other one says "I want to defer", I'm not parading to the center of the field to talk to captains - who aren't listening to anything you say anyway - and ask them what I already know. Unless they both want the ball or both want to defer, what purpose does a coin toss serve anyway? Ceremony?
Paaaaleeze tiphat:
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No high horse. It is required by the rules which I stated (you had previously asked a question that I was just answering-if the computer makes it sound like I was being arrogant-I am sorry was not intended that way).
Do what you want but the rule book says there has to be a toss at some point. If I know what the coaches want for sure, I will not let the captains make a mistake, but there will be a toss.
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Now we can put this topic to rest.... sNiCkErS
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With all due respect, Curious, part of your JOB is, "parading to the center of the field to talk to captains - who aren't listening to anything you say anyway - and ask them what I already know". How YOU deal with what responses you hear, what precautions you elect to take to avoid any and all possible confusion and/or miscommunications is prudent and rational, as long as they're acceptable in your area, and are likely a contributing factor as to how much (or preferably how little), "clean-up - too many f@#*-ups to trust ANY decision to a player" YOU may have to deal with.
There have been multiple, SOLID, suggestions about avoiding such instances included in this discussion. As is USUALLY the case, what MATTERS is what WORKS and is ACCEPTABLE in YOUR area, which may be somewhat different from what is rountinely done elsewhere.
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Now we can put this topic to rest.... sNiCkErS
My feelings are hurt. I got chopped off and locked WAAAAAAY before this. ???