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General Discussion / Re: HAPPY EASTER, ALL
« Last post by Etref on March 31, 2024, 08:06:45 AM »Yes, have a blessed day
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 07:45:10 AM »2-14-2a deals with place kicks and requires a holder with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the LOS and a kicker 3 yards or less behind him.
2-14-2b deals with punts where the punter must be at lease 10 behind the LOS AND READY TO GET THE LONG SNAP.
On place kicks the kicker isn't in position to get the long snap. The rewritten SKF rule was to prevent AXI , my proposal- only if a scrimmage kick is apparent can the numbering exception be used -was much simpler.
2-14-2b deals with punts where the punter must be at lease 10 behind the LOS AND READY TO GET THE LONG SNAP.
On place kicks the kicker isn't in position to get the long snap. The rewritten SKF rule was to prevent AXI , my proposal- only if a scrimmage kick is apparent can the numbering exception be used -was much simpler.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on March 31, 2024, 07:26:09 AM »The holder is still the holdert and can be roughed, BUT if a knee isn't touching earth it isn't SKF. If in pre-game meeting, coach informs of a trick play from the holder in a 'catcher's crouch' then inform him that there will be no snapper protection @ & numbering exception. This will usually kill the use of such. Remember:
(1) To be in SKF,. the punter needs to be 10 yards behind LOS;
I believe that we've discussed this before but let's refresh some memories. In almost all "kick" formations there is at least one player, the "kicker", 10 yards behind the LOS. This is virtually always true whether there is a "holder" between the snapper and the "kicker" or not. So in terms of a 4th down play with a "kicker" 10 yards behind the LOS doesn't by definition any combination of these formations qualify as a SKF?
So shouldn't (1) actually read "To be in SKF, the KICKER needs to be at least 10 yards behind the LOS".?
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General Discussion / HAPPY EASTER, ALL
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 06:35:30 AM »Wishing all a happy Easter. If it's rejoycing in church, enjoying a family dinner, or calling a loved one, try to make today special.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 06:19:56 AM »Since a player on R made a fair catch signal, they can recover, but not advance. However, it is not a "fair catch".The choice of where to spot the ball. We usually spot it in the middle, like we do on PATs, with the captain having the option to request it moved.
Here's another good study question for your rules clinics this year: During a scrimmage kick, R88 signals for a fair catch and a) completes the catch or b) has the ball hit the ground before recovery. How are situations A and B different? Meaning, what rules apply or options does R have after the fair catch that don't apply in situation B? The obvious albatross is that R couldn't elect to put the ball in play with a free kick in B, but what else is more likely to apply?
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 06:15:40 AM »Another good one is on the coin toss, always ask if they want to D-E-F-E-R first. Asking : "Kick, recieve, defend a goal or defer" can cause some kids to say :"Yea, we'll kickoff" when told by coach to ask to defer. Some 'silent choices' are:
(1) After a touchback, spot the ball in the middle unless asked.
(2) On a PAT, spot the ball in the middle unless asked.
(3) After a score, assume the scored upon team wants to recieve unless asked.
There may be more, but it's still early in the morning for me.
(1) After a touchback, spot the ball in the middle unless asked.
(2) On a PAT, spot the ball in the middle unless asked.
(3) After a score, assume the scored upon team wants to recieve unless asked.
There may be more, but it's still early in the morning for me.
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National Federation Discussion / Clinc Conversation Topics
« Last post by ncwingman on March 30, 2024, 07:42:38 PM »I've been trying to think of good topics for rules clinics for the upcoming year, and another thread gave me an idea that I'd like to hear if anybody else has suggestions on.
What are common situations where we, as officials, often assume what a team will choose to do but they actually have options that are rarely utilized?
For instance, after a fair catch, R can designate where (between the hash marks) the ball will be put into play. I would say 99% of the time, as a back judge, I mark the spot of the recovery (or nearest hash) and we play from there. However, the coach could say we want to play from the other hash, or the middle of the field, or wherever... but we never really ask. I would also say that 99% of the time, the coach is unaware that he's allowed to ask... but that's a different point.
So where else are we kind of set in a routine, but we should be more aware of options available to a team?
What are common situations where we, as officials, often assume what a team will choose to do but they actually have options that are rarely utilized?
For instance, after a fair catch, R can designate where (between the hash marks) the ball will be put into play. I would say 99% of the time, as a back judge, I mark the spot of the recovery (or nearest hash) and we play from there. However, the coach could say we want to play from the other hash, or the middle of the field, or wherever... but we never really ask. I would also say that 99% of the time, the coach is unaware that he's allowed to ask... but that's a different point.
So where else are we kind of set in a routine, but we should be more aware of options available to a team?
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by AlUpstateNY on March 30, 2024, 09:36:04 AM »By "Rule" (Traffic Law) it's a violation to drive 66, in a zone with a posted 65 mile limit. As Officials, it's doubtful any of us would ever violate that requirement intentionally, but if we did who would likely be focused on that violation?
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 30, 2024, 08:13:01 AM »Just so I'm sure I've got all this... By RuleTM, 1) Roughing the Kicker can be called whenever a player kicks the ball, 2) Roughing the Holder can be called whenever a player holds the ball, 3) Roughing the Snapper can only be called based on the actions/position of the Kicker and (optionally) Holder?
In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.
Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."
Yes, that is the 'BY RULE' rule.The complexcity we made with SKF wasn't my idea, but I'm only 1 out of 51. I agree that linebackers are probably watching the ball and not the holder's knee. Holders are often the backup QB and wantto get their uniform/knee muddy as a badge of playing
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by ncwingman on March 30, 2024, 07:48:57 AM »Just so I'm sure I've got all this... By RuleTM, 1) Roughing the Kicker can be called whenever a player kicks the ball, 2) Roughing the Holder can be called whenever a player holds the ball, 3) Roughing the Snapper can only be called based on the actions/position of the Kicker and (optionally) Holder?
In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.
Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."
In reality, a) I doubt any R linebacker will see the holder pick his knee up and realize he's allowed to charge into the snapper and b) if he does, it could still be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.
Worse still, team comes out for the try, holder puts the block down and then sees the condition of the field -- "Ew, that's muddy... I don't want to put my knee in that..."