Holding penality enforcement

[bmem66]

Please clarify a couple of penalty enforcement regarding holding. 

Play 1
On a loose ball incomplete pass play, the LOS is the A30 and the LTG is the A40.  During the play, A55 holds B80 on the A25 yard line.   Is it enforced from the previous spot (A30) or the spot of the foul (A25)? 

Play 2
On a completed pass play, the LOS is the A30 and the LTG is the A40.   During the play, A55 holds B80 on the A25 yard line.  The pass is completed and runner down at the A45.   Is it enforced from the previous spot (A30) or the spot of the foul (A25)?

Does the all but one principal have anything to do with the enforcement in play 1?

Thanks

[ncwingman]

The All But One principle is everything here. Both scenarios have fouls by the offense behind the basic spot -- therefore enforcement is from the spot of the foul (the "But One")

In the first scenario, the basic spot is the A30 -- since the foul was behind that, the A25, the penalty is enforced from the 25.

In the second scenario, if the foul occurred prior to the catch, it's still a loose ball play with the basic spot as the previous spot, A30. If the foul occurred after the catch (to cover all bases here), the basic spot is the end of the run, A45. In either case, the foul was behind the basic spot, and the penalty enforced from the spot of the foul.

[bmem66]

A lot of discussion with my crew after Friday.   

First and 10 for A on the A30.   A88 goes out for a pass and before the ball is thrown, holds B26 at the A45 yard line.  He then catches the ball at the A45 and goes out of bounds. 

Is it
A) Is he penalized 10 yards from the spot of the foul and marked back to the A35 where is is now 1st and 5?   

Or is it B) enforced from the previous spot and now 1st and 20 from the A20.

If it is A, it doesn't seem right that A commits a foul in order to get free from the defender before the ball is thrown, catches the ball, and still gets a 5 yard gain as a result.

Thank you

[ncwingman]

A88 committed a live ball foul during a loose ball play. The basic spot for the loose ball play is the previous spot. Since the foul was in advance of the basic spot, the enforcement is from the basic spot -- the A30.

It would be 1st and 20 from the A20 after enforcement.

[bmem66]

So basically, holding loose ball foul ahead of basic spot (LOS),  penalize from basic spot.   Holding behind the loose ball foul, penalize from the spot of the foul, correct?   And thank you!

[GAHSUMPIRE]

So basically, holding loose ball foul ahead of basic spot (LOS),  penalize from basic spot.   Holding behind the loose ball foul, penalize from the spot of the foul, correct?   And thank you!

If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the action that occurs during the down. This is the basic spot for penalty enforcement. All fouls, except a foul by the offense from behind the basic spot, are penalized from the basic spot.

Basic Spot:
1. The basic spot is the previous spot for;
   A foul simultaneous with the snap. Ex.: illegal motion, illegal shift, illegal formation, illegal participation (12 players) if unnoticed,    others??
   A foul during a loose ball play.
A loose ball play is action during;
A.   a free or scrimmage kick
B.   a legal forward pass
C.   a backward pass (incl. the snap), illegal kick or fumble by A from in or behind the NZ and prior to a change of possession
D.   the run or runs preceding a kick, legal forward pass, backward pass, or fumble

2. The basic spot is the end of the run for a foul that occurs during a running play.
3. The basic spot is the succeeding spot for;
   An unsportsmanlike foul
   A dead ball foul
   A nonplayer foul
      When the final result is a touchback
      A foul by B on a try, FG, or TD if A accepts the points
   

Enforcement is based on the fact that a team is given the advantage of the distance that is gained, without the assistance of a foul. Therefore, the only foul that would give this aid, is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot.

If a foul occurs, we must know if it occurred during a loose ball play, a running play, or if it became a foul simultaneously with the snap. This determines the basic spot for penalty enforcement.

Special Enforcement Rules:
   Free kick OOBs; back 5 yds and rekick, where kick went OOBs, 25 yds from previous spot
   Kick catching interference; 15 yds from previous spot and rekick, awarded FC at the spot of the foul
   Unfair acts; I can do whatever I want, including award a TD.
   A foul by B on a successful try;
The basic spot is the spot of possession for a Post Scrimmage Kick foul.

[Ralph Damren]

A lot of discussion with my crew after Friday.   

First and 10 for A on the A30.   A88 goes out for a pass and before the ball is thrown, holds B26 at the A45 yard line.  He then catches the ball at the A45 and goes out of bounds. 

Is it
A) Is he penalized 10 yards from the spot of the foul and marked back to the A35 where is is now 1st and 5?   

Or is it B) enforced from the previous spot and now 1st and 20 from the A20.

If it is A, it doesn't seem right that A commits a foul in order to get free from the defender before the ball is thrown, catches the ball, and still gets a 5 yard gain as a result.

Thank you

Why wouldn't this be OPI and not holding? 7-5-8a : Pass interference restrictions on a legal forward pass begin for A with the snap.

[VALJ]

So basically, holding loose ball foul ahead of basic spot (LOS),  penalize from basic spot.   Holding behind the loose ball foul, penalize from the spot of the foul, correct?   And thank you!

Correct. ALL fouls are enforced from the basic spot, except one: a foul by A behind the basic spot. That sole exception is enforced from the spot of the foul

[VALJ]

Why wouldn't this be OPI and not holding? 7-5-8a : Pass interference restrictions on a legal forward pass begin for A with the snap.

Indeed!  Since A knows the play is a pass play, anything that their receiver does before the pass is thrown should be considered OPI. So long as the pass is thrown, of course.

[bmem66]

Below I ask where the penalty enforcement is for holding by A behind the LOS during a complete or incomplete forward pass.   Per NCWINGMAN
The All But One principle is everything here. Both scenarios have fouls by the offense behind the basic spot -- therefore enforcement is from the spot of the foul (the "But One")

In the first scenario, the basic spot is the A30 -- since the foul was behind that, the A25, the penalty is enforced from the 25.

In the second scenario, if the foul occurred prior to the catch, it's still a loose ball play with the basic spot as the previous spot, A30. If the foul occurred after the catch (to cover all bases here), the basic spot is the end of the run, A45. In either case, the foul was behind the basic spot, and the penalty enforced from the spot of the foul

I have now been quoted this from the case book that appears to contradict the above statement.

According to case book 10.4.2 (B) - page 99 - During a scrimmage down, QB A1 throws a backward pass to A2 who runs about 30 yds. behind the neutral zone and toward the sideline before throwing a forward pass downfield.  There is holding by A3: (a) during the backward pass; or (b) during the run which preceded the forward pass; or(c) during the forward pass at the line of scrimmage. RULING: It is a loose ball play in (a), (b) and(c).  The basic spot in all three cases is the previous spot.  Under COMMENTS"...when any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap)or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone...even if several of these actions happen during the same down...the basic spot remains the same, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick.

Which is correct?

[bama_stripes]

Which part of NCWINGMAN's answer do you think the case play contradicts?

[bossman72]

Basic spot ≠ enforcement spot

Basic spot is a point of reference.
You enforce using All-but-one

[bmem66]

I am just not understanding.   NC Wing man states that holds behind the line on a legal forward pass are enforced from the spot of the foul.   In this case from the case book. 10.4.2B,  there is a hold behind the line by A. 

Under COMMENTS"...when any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap)or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone...even if several of these actions happen during the same down...the basic spot remains the same, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick.
legal forward pass.     

Doesn't this mean it is enforced from the previous spot which would be the LOS?

[ncwingman]

The basic spot is NOT the same as the enforcement spot.

The enforcement spot is the same as the basic spot for all types of fouls BUT ONE -- that One is an offensive foul behind the basic spot. Those fouls are enforced from the spot of the foul instead of the basic spot. This is the All But One principle.

The comment you quoted states that the basic spot for any loose ball play (a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap)or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone) is the previous spot -- but that is not (necessarily) the enforcement spot.

The case play is only establishing where the basic spot is, not the enforcement spot. The play does not mention where the holding by A3 took place, only when -- without knowing where it took place, you cannot establish the enforcement spot.

If the holding by A3 took place after the forward pass was caught and during the ensuing run, then you would have a different basic spot (the end of the related run).

[AlUpstateNY]

I think you're having trouble understanding the "all but One" concept.  You are correct in understanding the basic spot for a foul committed during a loose ball play is the previous spot, which is often (usually) the LOS, HOWEVER THERE IS ONE EXCEPTION.

When that foul occurs BEHIND the basic spot (such as when a passer, and his blockers retreat behind the LOS, and a teammate holds 5, 10, 15 yards BEHIND the LOS protecting his passer, then "All-but-One" applies, and the "basic spot" shifts to the spot of the foul.

[bmem66]

Thank you.   I appreciate the help of all who responded.

[KDJBBBJ]

 

Basic Spot:
1. The basic spot is the previous spot for;
   A foul simultaneous with the snap. Ex.: illegal motion, illegal shift, illegal formation, illegal participation (12 players) if unnoticed,    others??   

Would failure to wear proper equipment fall into this category?

[ncwingman]

Would failure to wear proper equipment fall into this category?

No. That is a succeeding spot foul -- noncontact, live ball enforced as dead ball foul.

If you catch the equipment prior to the snap, it can be enforced as a delay of game foul instead.

[Ralph Damren]

THE RATIONALE OF THE ALL BUT ONE PRINCIPLE :

  The illegal act may allow a runner to gain more yardage than if the act was legal.

  The enforcement spot should be from that spot of illegal act if behind the basic spot (end of run
  on running plays, previous spot on loose ball plays).

  If the illegal act occurred beyond the basic spot, it had no baring on the runners advance, so
  the basic spot becomes the enforcement spot.

  "All but one" derived from the four live ball foul scenarios that may occur:
    (1) Foul by B behind the basic spot;
    (2) foul by B in advance of basic spot;
    (3) foul by A in advance of basic spot;
        ......ALL enforced from basic spot, BUT ONE...
    (4) foul by A behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul.

 OTHER HANDY TIDBITS.....

    Several fouls occur when the ball is snapped (illegal formation, illegal formation, etc) and those
    will all be enforced from the previous spot.

    Other codes (NCAA,NFL) differ on fouls occurring behind the LOS, their job is to sell tickets
    and TV rights...the frenzied masses enjoy offense more then defense.

    NFHS stance is that our "all but one" enforcement is very fair and fairness is more important than
    satisfying the frenzied masses.

   Hope this helps...