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Non-Officiating => Non-Officiating Discussion => Topic started by: Joe Stack on November 10, 2011, 01:05:42 PM
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What a mess. What are your thoughts?
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Stolen from an other board..
Let's see if Sandusky enjoys his showers at the State Pen as much as he enjoyed them at Penn State
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What a mess. What are your thoughts?
Bad situation all the way around.
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sad for all parties involved.
Curious if the party with 40+ yrs of service will receive the university employee's pension, or due to circumstances if will it be revoked
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Pensions are usually contractual. If the contract allows them to revoke, then maybe so. But I would be surprised if it is written that way.
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my thoughts were: pensions are generally revoked if terminated for cause (fired).
obviously, i'm no NCAA coach so no idea how that works.
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my thoughts were: pensions are generally revoked if terminated for cause (fired).
obviously, i'm no NCAA coach so no idea how that works.
Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?
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Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?
He knowlingly hush-hushed repeated federal offences conducted under his watch? I mean, how much more depraved can you be than "Yeha, my assistant coach BUTT-rapes little boys, but he runs a helluva defensive backfield so I consider it a wash?"
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Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?
Because there are some eployment contracts that have conduct provisos in them which remove any pension in the event of certain acts/events. Since this was a state school, they probably had namby pamby language that essentially guarantees him a pension , even if convicted of serial murder.
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Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?
Al:
Maybe you had a bad day, but not sure what provoked the respomnse. I'm not rumoring anything. The newspaper said, "fired". Round thease parts, that's a synonym for "terminated".
My thought process was, "goodness, the guy is 80+yrs old, and (per the paper, 'allegedly' - don't want you to think I was rumoring or being a yenta) he was "fired". Gosh, will he lose his pension and be able to pay the bills."
I even acknowledged I didn't know how NCAA coaches' pensions work.
I certainly didn't make my inquiry for a combatative and/or abrasive response.
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JoPa made over $1 mil a year, I'm sure he's banked some of it. Penn State has been a Nike school for years. I'm sure his shoe contract was worth more than his school contract. He'll land on his feet, even if they do whack his pension.
My opinion, sorry, sickening state of affairs. People knew and covered it up, all in the name of the "program".
Lives will be ruined all the way around this thing. To me, its comparable to the abuse scandal in the Catholic church. They tried to keep it hushed up too.
In a medieval world, we'd torture Sandusky to death. Fortunately for him, he gets to escape the hell he brought to these boys and will live out the balance of his life in a cell, probably checked off into protective custody so the same thing doesn't get to happen to him.
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I, personally think the entire staff needs to be terminated...EVERYONE. I'm not just talking about coaches either...trainers, equipment guys, etc...if you were directly working with football...gone.
Former Oklahoma coach Barry Switzer says the closeness of coaching staffs and the continuity of Joe Paterno's Penn State staff makes one thing almost certain: “Everyone on that staff had to have known.”
Read more: http://newsok.com/penn-state-tragedy-barry-switzer-says-joe-paterno-had-to-go/article/3621872#ixzz1dP8hnp7O
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He knowlingly hush-hushed repeated federal offences conducted under his watch? I mean, how much more depraved can you be than "Yeha, my assistant coach BUTT-rapes little boys, but he runs a helluva defensive backfield so I consider it a wash?"
Perhaps you might take a deep breath and come down from your high moral perch, just for a second until a lot more FACTS are known. Maybe my area newspapers aren't as up to date as yours, but as of this morning I'm still reading that there are NO DETAILS about what Coach Paterno was actually told about what was observed.
It has been reported that he passed (whatever details he had) on to the APPROPRIATE and DESIGNATED administrator than handles issues of any misconduct, because at the time Sandusky was a FORMER employee, no longer under any connection to the football program.
Given a whole lot of hindsight, Paterno in retrospect indicates he should of, and wishes he had, followed the allegation more closely. You want to call that an error in judgment, I won't argue with that assessment, but without KNOWING that he was told specifically and understood what we NOW KNOW actually was taking place, I'm willing to consider his lifetime behavior and give him some "benefit of the doubt".
WHEN, and IF, additional FACTS surface suggesting greater culpability, I'll revist my assessment. Until then, I'm going to wait and see what unfolds before I give in to speculation, rumor, presumptions and a lot of guess work and throw a 60+ year career of outstanding and consistent community service under the bus. IF it turns out Paterno actually is guilty of what you ASSUME he is, there will be opportunity to proclaim his guilt. If the FACTS prove otherwise, how are you going to clean off the mud you're throwing, based on speculation? If any group should understand that you need to see the entire foul, before you throw your flag, we're it, and there's a lot of details about this incident that are currently "under review".
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Perhaps you might take a deep breath and come down from your high moral perch, just for a second until a lot more FACTS are known. Maybe my area newspapers aren't as up to date as yours, but as of this morning I'm still reading that there are NO DETAILS about what Coach Paterno was actually told about what was observed.
Forget the newspapers...read the grand jury report, if you can stand it. And then use common sense. The 2 together should make it clear to you.
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I keep thinking that if the grad asst saw a man raping a boy in the shower, why didn't he call police? If he had seen a fire? 9-1-1. A player raping a cheerleader? 9-1-1 A car accident? 9-1-1 So why if witnessing that event would you wait 1 day and tell your head coach? Then I think, once you've got that image in your head, how can even look at the man again, much less allow him continued access to the facilities? Joe Pa may have fulfilled his duty as far as the university policy goes, but what decent man allows that to go without following up. If a policy calls for you to notify your superiors, I doubt it denies you the obligation of notifying police. It was a crime afterall.
This is a horrible situation for so many people on so many levels. I find it difficult to wrap my brain around how long this went on before authorities finally became involved. An now the mess its created adn the response of so many irrational people is appauling. Mind boggling.
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I keep thinking that if the grad asst saw a man raping a boy in the shower, why didn't he call police? If he had seen a fire? 9-1-1. A player raping a cheerleader? 9-1-1 A car accident? 9-1-1 So why if witnessing that event would you wait 1 day and tell your head coach? Then I think, once you've got that image in your head, how can even look at the man again, much less allow him continued access to the facilities? Joe Pa may have fulfilled his duty as far as the university policy goes, but what decent man allows that to go without following up. If a policy calls for you to notify your superiors, I doubt it denies you the obligation of notifying police. It was a crime afterall.
This is a horrible situation for so many people on so many levels. I find it difficult to wrap my brain around how long this went on before authorities finally became involved. An now the mess its created adn the response of so many irrational people is appauling. Mind boggling.
Have you seen the size of the so called "coach" who was the Grad Asst at that time when he saw this? He ain't no little guy. He should have intervened immediately, forget the police. How ,any of us would have been content to just report it to the police, much less just report it to our dady and then our idol joePa??? Not me I can tell you that.
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Perhaps you might take a deep breath and come down from your high moral perch, just for a second until a lot more FACTS are known. Maybe my area newspapers aren't as up to date as yours, but as of this morning I'm still reading that there are NO DETAILS about what Coach Paterno was actually told about what was observed.
Al, the fact is, He was told that SOMETHING happened. He told the AD. The guy that is accused of these acts, while not on his staff at the time, was someone with whom he had a long time relationship. Don't you think he might have picked up the phone and asked the guy what the heck happened? As far as any information I have seen so far (I will stipulate to your point about additional information to be forthcoming), Paterno did not even speak to Sandusky about it.
If I have my dates right, this occurred during or right before spring break- Spring Practice is over, no game to prepare for for a couple of months- how busy could he have been? He is the head of that program, and while not having the title, he is the leader of that University. If he had wanted that investigated and resolved- it would have been.
Has Paterno done a lot of good over the years? Sure. He won a lot of football games, built a winning program, donated a large amount of money to the University, etc. All very good things for which he should be commended. In this case, while he may not have done anything illegal, by not acting in a more forceful manner, he enabled this behavior to continue, and for this one situation he should be condemned.
Does this one situation wipe out all the good he's done over the course of his career, no, but neither does all the good he's done over the years absolve him from blame in this situation.
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The guy that is accused of these acts, while not on his staff at the time, was someone with whom he had a long time relationship. Don't you think he might have picked up the phone and asked the guy what the heck happened?
he enabled this behavior to continue, and for this one situation he should be condemned.
Does this one situation wipe out all the good he's done over the course of his career, no, but neither does all the good he's done over the years absolve him from blame in this situation.
I have not suggested that anybody be absolved of any blame they may have earned, and Coach Paterno has acknowledged, in hindsight, "he wises he had done more". Absolving is not the question, rushing to all sorts of judgements, assumptions, speculations and premature piling on seems more the issue. Was Joe Paterno told a crime was committed, I don't KNOW what he was told and it doesn't sound like too many others KNOW exactly what he was told.
I have no idea, whether Coach Paterno and his former assistant were on speaking terms at the time of this incident, do you? Sandusky "retired" 3 years earlier, do you KNOW anything about what may have prompted that retirement, I don't.
If he was on speaking terms with Sandusky, approached him and Sandusky vehemently denied the whole thing, what would Paterno then do? Paterno didn't see what happened, he was told what happened and there is real question about exactly what he was told.
If I'm following correctly, he reported the incident to the appropriate person immediately to investigate and confirm, or reject, the accusation. He didn't cover it up or hide it, he reported it, right away. There are some that are consistently so quick and eager to presume the absolute worst possible cause for what, at times, may be an error in judgment or a mistake, based on speculation, exaggeration and pure rumor. What exactly is so horrible about waiting for all the facts to be understood before making a rock solid conclusion? Isn't that what we're trained for and supposed to do?
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Your defense of Joe Pa is deplorable... I agree we should wait for more "facts" but only to determine if Joe should go to prison or not... The grand jury report is a powerful indictment of Joe... This was not an isolated incident... These vile acts took place over 8 years... if Joe didn't know more he should have... This is a long way from being over....
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Was Joe Paterno told a crime was committed, I don't KNOW what he was told and it doesn't sound like too many others KNOW exactly what he was told.
Again....have you READ the Grand Jury report?
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These vile acts took place over 8 years.
Actually there are reports back to at least 1998 and maybe even 1994. His abrupt resignation at age 55 in 1999 now begins to make sense. The party line was "he found out that he was never going to be Paterno's heir". Maybe they told him to get out and that was the cover or he was told he would never be the head coach because of the stories floating around.
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Again....have you READ the Grand Jury report?
http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF
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Again....have you READ the Grand Jury report?
I have now, Satcfi was kind enough to post it above. Aside from pages 6 and 7, that relate to "Victim #2" I didn't see Joe Paterno's name mentioned in the 23 page report. Essentially Paterno's involvement is alledged that he was told of an incident in a shower, whereas the details of what was actually told was unclear, and that Paterno met with the Assistant Coach and immediately reported that conversation and the incident to the appropriate source in the PSU Administration.
The rest of the report details activities between Mr. Sandusky and 7 other victims dating back to 1994 up through 2009. It seems all of these victims were contacted by Mr. Sandusky during his relationship with the 2nd Mile Program and there were several suggestions that inappropriate contacts were initiated by Mr. Sandusky at various facilities at PSU.
There is absolutely no indication or suggestion that Coach Paterno was in any way aware of any of these other inappropriate incidences either at PSU facilities or elsewhere. Apparently Mr. Sandusky brought several of these victims to PSU football games as a guest, and Victim #4 apparently lived with the Sandusky family for a period of time.
It seems the report doesn't suggest any additional involvement by, connection with or knowledge of, any of these additional victims or their incidences with Mr. Sandusky by Coach Paterno. One Victim suggests Sandusky advised he was told by Paterno in 1999 that he would NOT follow him as heach PSC Football Coach which upset Mr. Sandusky. It also indicated Sandusky was investigated in 1998 by the PA Dept. of Public Welfare about an incident of improper touching.
So unless I missed something, the report hasn't added anything, relative to Coach Paterno, that wasn't included in the discussions on this board. It does paint a long, repetitive and disgraceful history of contacts Mr. Sandusky had with a string of victims while associated with the 2nd Mile Program, which was separate from his PSU job.
The suggestion that Coach Paterno "should have known" about these activities is nonsense, as the report shows Mr. Sandusky went to great lengths to arrange for very private meetings with is victims over this 15 year period. It is absurd to presume Mr. Sandusky would have advertised these blatantly illegal activiies in any way to Mr. Paterno, or that Mr. Paterno somehow "knew of" Mr. Sandusky's leanings. Reading the details of theses illegal contacts it seems Mr. Sandusky was very efficient in keeping his illegal activities from public scrutiny.
The bottom line remains, a subordinate told Coach Paterno of witnessing an inappropriate incident (the details and extent of that discussion remains unknown), Coach Paterno immediately reported the incident to the appropriate administrative contact at PSU, who subsequently met with the witness directly, without Coach Paterno. 3 years prior to this incident, Mr. Sandusky retired from the PSU football team and was given Emeritus status by PSU allowing him to maintain offices on the PSU campus.
If there is an additional "smoking gun" concerning Mr. Paterno in this report, forgive me, I just don't see it.
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If there is an additional "smoking gun" concerning Mr. Paterno in this report, forgive me, I just don't see it.
Did you "see" the sun come up this AM? If you did not will you deny that it DID come up?
APPARENTLY the fan's catcalls ARE correct...you ARE blind. ;)
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The chain of command does not absolve you from reporting a crime.
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Al will be happy to know Sandusky is still getting his pension
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/13/former-penn-state-assistant-coach-reportedly-continues-to-receive-monthly/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/13/former-penn-state-assistant-coach-reportedly-continues-to-receive-monthly/)
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Did you "see" the sun come up this AM? If you did not will you deny that it DID come up? APPARENTLY the fan's catcalls ARE correct...you ARE blind. ;)
I don't know about blind, but obviously I lack the x-ray vision that allows you to see, so clearly and completely, inside someone else's deepest thoughts. As one of the many who has made really poor decisions, at one time or another, I understand that sometimes really decent and honest people don't make their best decisions, and often pay serious consequences for lapses in judgment. Unlike you, I have a long way to go before reaching the level of perfection, you apparently have decided you enjoy, so I just have to muddle along trying to do the best I can.
I guess I shouldn't expect folks like you TxMike, who obviously has never made any kind of mistaken or inaccurate judgment, to understand that many of us are actually a lot further from perfect, than you consider yourself to be, and understand how sometimes what we think is the right thing to do, turns out not to be, especially when years of hindsight are added to the mix.
No, I didn't see the "smoking gun" you are alluding to in the Grand Jury report, I was hoping someone, such as yourself, with apparently a much finer perceptive capability could point it out for me. Perhaps my hearing is also deficient, as I don't usually hear fans catcalls, or maybe I've just learned to ignore really stupid comments like they don't exist, such as bringing Mr. Sandusky's pension into the conversation.I didn't realize a concern over Mr. Sandusky's pension was a relative part of a discussion about Coach Paterno's actions.
HLinNC, you are correct, "The chain of command does not absolve you from reporting a crime", when you have personally observed a crime, or are absolutely certain of all the circumstances. When either, or both, are absent reporting the activity to the appropriate level up the chain, for further investigation and verification, seems prudent and reasonable. Given the subject matter, I can understand Mr. Paterno's disdain for pursuing the matter, a decision he has publicly acknowledged regret for.
From what I've read, the allegation presented to Coach Paterno, the expressed detail of which remains subject to question, was an allegation of a serious enough accusation that called for verification and clarification and was referred to the investigative authority for handling.
All this speculation about "years of prior suspicions", ongoing cover-up, coulda-shoulda known what was going on, excessive concern over the Institution's reputation and assorted other totally unsubstantiated theories are just so much fantasy that reveal more about the insitgator's frame of mind than Coach Paterno.
If there's smoke, there will ultimately be fire, but until there's fire there isn't any real heat. I'm comfortable waiting to see if there is actually any fire.
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I guess I shouldn't expect folks like you TxMike, who obviously has never made any kind of mistaken or inaccurate judgment, to understand that many of us are actually a lot further from perfect, than you consider yourself to be, and understand how sometimes what we think is the right thing to do, turns out not to be, especially when years of hindsight are added to the mix.
This is not about making a "simple" mistake. This is about a serious breach of law and about facilitating the continuing sexual abuse of children. I guarandamntee you i have NEVER done that .
From what I've read, the allegation presented to Coach Paterno, the expressed detail of which remains subject to question, was an allegation of a serious enough accusation that called for verification and clarification and was referred to the investigative authority for handling.
What "investigative authority" was it referred to? ? That is the problem, it was NOT properly referred.
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If there's smoke, there will ultimately be fire, but until there's fire there isn't any real heat. I'm comfortable waiting to see if there is actually any fire.
That is probably just what Paterno said to himself also. How did that work for him?
There is plenty of fire and lots more in the future for some of those in this travesty:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XX3KLSs4-Xw/TAQgysM_0II/AAAAAAAAAK8/9tUVFs5ve78/s1600/Hell.gif)
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This is not about making a "simple" mistake. This is about a serious breach of law and about facilitating the continuing sexual abuse of children. I guarandamntee you i have NEVER done that .
What "investigative authority" was it referred to? ? That is the problem, it was NOT properly referred.
That is probably just what Paterno said to himself also. How did that work for him?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XX3KLSs4-Xw/TAQgysM_0II/AAAAAAAAAK8/9tUVFs5ve78/s1600/Hell.gif)
TxMike, this is not about you, except for the fact that you seem incredibly eager and anxious to totally trash a man who has otherwise seemed to have lived a very positive life, on the basis of speculation, suposition, innuend and rumor. As it has been reported that PA Child Protective Agencies have records about complaints relating to Mr. Sandusky at the 2nd Mile charity dating back to the late 1990s, it's a real stretch to lay any blame for "the continuing sexual abuse of children." at Coach Paterno's feet.
As to the investigative authority Paterno reported the incident to, the DA has been quoted as suggesting it was an appropriate referral. Sorry, but I'll go with what he is suggesting.
It seems a lot of your argument is built on what you have chosen to presume was "probably" said or done by a lot of people involved. I agree that, "There is plenty of fire and lots more in the future for some of those in this travesty" and am thankful you will have absolutely nothing to say about how, or to whom, that fire is applied.
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TXMike, could you clarify one thing to me. The grand jury report says (on page 12) that it is the responsibility of the person in charge of the school to report a suspected child abuse to the Department of Public Welfare. Is the head coach of a football team considered a "person in charge of the school"? I would think not, but I'm not well versed in the US legal system.
If not, then hasn't Paterno done exactly what he should have, ie. reported the suspicions passed to him up the chain of command? Granted, he probably should have verified that a report is made, but, as he was not legally bound to report it, would he have risked himself to a defamation suit, if the allegations presented to him would have been false? Shouldn't the graduate assistant have contacted the police, as he was the one who witnessed the crime?
Note that I'm not saying that Paterno is innocent, but based on the grand jury report alone, I don't really see what crime he has committed. He may have made a moral mistake (by not making sure either the AD or the GA reports to the authorities), but I'm not sure if he should be hanged just because of that.
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TxMike can't help it. Them Ex G-Men think everyone is guilty. :)
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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.870335,-117.210441
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TXMike, could you clarify one thing to me. The grand jury report says (on page 12) that it is the responsibility of the person in charge of the school to report a suspected child abuse to the Department of Public Welfare. Is the head coach of a football team considered a "person in charge of the school"? I would think not, but I'm not well versed in the US legal system.
If not, then hasn't Paterno done exactly what he should have, ie. reported the suspicions passed to him up the chain of command?
As I understand it, this is correct regarding Paterno's legal obligations, and it's the reason he has not (yet) been charged with a crime. I gather that he's hired a criminal defense attorney to keep it that way, and to be able to give all the right answers from here on out.
Another example of why a person can properly be fired for ethical violations who has committed no crimes.
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It seems a lot of your argument is built on what you have chosen to presume was "probably" said or done by a lot of people involved. I agree that, "There is plenty of fire and lots more in the future for some of those in this travesty" and am thankful you will have absolutely nothing to say about how, or to whom, that fire is applied.
I am sure Sandusky and anyone else who is facing Lady Justice is praying for others like you and the OJ jury and the Casey Anthony jury to be there to bail their sorry butts out.
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Another example of why a person can properly be fired for ethical violations who has committed no crimes.
Exactly. Penn State can (and should) require a higher standard from their employees than the law does.
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Great news Al !
From the AP:
By Associated Press, Published: November 15 | Updated: Wednesday, November 16, 1:05 AM
HARRISBURG, Pa. — Former Penn State football coach Joe Paterno’s long service at the university theoretically puts him in line for a pension of more than $500,000 a year, according to an Associated Press analysis of state public pension records.
Paterno’s pension records obtained Tuesday from the State Employees’ Retirement System credit him with more than 60 years in the system. The formula used to determine benefits makes him eligible for a pension equal to 100 percent of the average of his three highest-salary years.
His pay rose from $541,000 to $568,000 over the past three full calendar years.
When Paterno retires, he will have to make a set of choices to determine his pension, including whether to designate a survivor to receive benefits after he dies and whether to obtain a one-time, lump-sum payment of his own contributions.
State Employees’ Retirement System spokeswoman Pamela Hile said Internal Revenue Code and Retirement Code benefit limits may also apply, so the agency does not issue estimated pension benefits ahead of time. There also is a long-service supplement that could boost Paterno to 110 percent of his final average salary.
A 2006 report on Pennsylvania state pensions said the largest pension at that time within SERS was $254,000, being collected by a Penn State surgery professor who had withdrawn a $554,000 lump sum.
The New York Times also reported Tuesday night that Paterno transferred full ownership of his house to his wife, Sue, for $1 in July. The couple had previously held joint ownership of the house. Paterno’s attorney Wick Sollers told the paper in an e-mail that the transfer had nothing to do with the scandal but was part of an ongoing “multiyear estate planning program.”
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Great news Al !
The New York Times also reported Tuesday night that Paterno transferred full ownership of his house to his wife, Sue, for $1 in July. The couple had previously held joint ownership of the house. Paterno’s attorney Wick Sollers told the paper in an e-mail that the transfer had nothing to do with the scandal but was part of an ongoing “multiyear estate planning program.”
I'm truly embarrassed for you, TXMike, rather than simply admit you've allowed your emotions to push you way out in front of this story, you are clearly trying to use the age old, and discredited practice, of trying to thow so much crap up against the wall you're hoping that something will stick. I see no requirement to rush to judgment before all the facts are known, and believe Coach Paterno's personal record over a long and positive career have earned him the benefit of doubt concerning charges against him that are, thus far, purely speculative and primarily based on supposition, presumption, rumor and in some situations pure fantasy.
I'll reserve the right to ammend my conclusions as additional FACTS may warrant.
I don't know, nor do I much care, about the retirement package Coach Paterno, or the accused criminal in this situation may have earned or qualified for. That is a matter far beyond my reach or control and I certainly don't see what relevance it has to whatever point you are trying to make, with your exaggerated judgmental posturing and rather hollow attempt to characterize yourself as some champion of justice and all that is good and proper.
I don't think anybody, anywhere is comfortable or pleased with any part of this scandal, and your juvenile inferences to that end merely make you look like a self centered, "holier than thou" pompous jerk.
I accept your right to form whatever opinion YOU may arrive at on your own, regardless of how much I may disagree with your conclusions. it seems reasonable that you might extend the same level of curtesy to opinions that differ from yours, without wasting a lot of time on snarky nonsense. For the record, I don't place a lot of confidence on unfounded suggestions the NY Times makes either.
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The grad assistant is saying he did a little more than what was reported - he did stop the rape as it was happening and called the police AND reported it to Paterno.
I've always felt like he has been scapegoated in the press too much.
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And yet no police agency has a record of his complaint? And just how did this "hero" grad assisitant let the world know he is not the scumbag he is being portrayed as? In an email to someone who he says in the email "he barely knows" and yet he is making this revelation to him??? I call BS on that. I have no doubt Sandusky stopped the assault (maybe just momentarily) if he saw the GA as the GA claimed but did the GA grab the kid and remove him from the situation? NO!
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Did you "see" the sun come up this AM? If you did not will you deny that it DID come up?
APPARENTLY the fan's catcalls ARE correct...you ARE blind. ;)
I learned long ago, TXMike, to ignore fans catcalls. I don't think it's as much a question of being blind as it is accepting the fact I don't have X-ray vision and can presume I see into other people' thoughts.
If it makes you feel more secure, throwing someone else under the nearest bus, the problem might just be with your sense of personal security.
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Don't take x-ray vision superman, just some plain old-fashioned common sense. Let me know when you find some.
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Don't take x-ray vision superman, just some plain old-fashioned common sense. Let me know when you find some.
I'm not exactly sure what you might call having 02% of the facts and adding an additional 98% based on imagination, rumor, speculation and an inflated sense of self to form an iron clad conclusion, but it doesn't sound like "plain old fashioned common sense".
For what it's worth TXMike, pointing out how bad you think Joe Paterno, or anyone else, might be doesn't make you look any better.
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I am not in this to "make myself look better". Ignoring what is staring you in the face does not make you look better either...although it may qualify you to work in the PSU Athletic Department
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I am not in this to "make myself look better". Ignoring what is staring you in the face does not make you look better either...although it may qualify you to work in the PSU Athletic Department
Sorry TxMike, but it seems a lot of what you post is designed to try and make you look better or sound smarter.
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Why you wanna make this about me??? This is about a group of pathetic POS' who allowed a sadistic SON OF A GUN to roam unfettered for who knows how long?
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Why you wanna make this about me??? This is about a group of pathetic POS' who allowed a sadistic SON OF A GUN to roam unfettered for who knows how long?
TXMike you always want it to be about YOU, and about how ONLY YOU see whatever the issue is that much clearer than anyone else. YOU don't KNOW squat about who may, or may not, did, or did not, do something, or anything to allow, cover up, encourage or ignore what actually happened. As you are historically prone to do, you smelled red meat, jumped to the worst possible conclusions and off the nearest cliff.
I'm not arguing that some people may, or may not, have made poor judgments because, like you, I don't KNOW what these individuals knew, suspected, imagined or thought might be going on. If you choose to BUTT/u/me the absolute worst possibilities about decisions some, who have otherwise handled themselves pretty well, at least under a very public, very intrusive public microscope for a very long time, based on nothing more than conjecture, suspicion, rumor and the fantasies YOUR OWN MIND conjure up, that's YOUR choice, but that choice is ON YOU.
Having made a busload of poor decisions, I'm somewhat more open to the simple fact good people sometimes make dumb decisions without having any actual evil, hidden or complicated secret agenda. Sometimes what actually may seem, at a given moment, like the right thing to do, regretably turns out not to be, especially when fueled by a lot of pure hind sight.
If YOU don't want this issue to, "be about you", stop being the one insisting on throwing all the rocks and wait like everyone else to ACTUALLY SEE where the facts take this matter.
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Yawn.......Can you guys get your own chat room? deadhorse:
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You want "facts" Al??? How bout these from the perv himself? He has opened his mouth again and said Paterno said NOTHING to him about the kids.
Center of Penn State Scandal, Sandusky Tells His Own Story
By JO BECKER
The former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky, in his first extended interview since his indictment on sexual abuse charges last month, said Coach Joe Paterno never spoke to him about any suspected misconduct with minors. Mr. Sandusky also said the charity he worked for never restricted his access to children until he became the subject of a criminal investigation in 2008.
The failure by Mr. Paterno to act more aggressively after being told in 2002 that Mr. Sandusky had molested a 10-year-old boy in the showers of the university’s football building played a role in Mr. Paterno’s firing last month after 62 years at Penn State. Mr. Sandusky, in the interview, said that Mr. Paterno did not speak to him or confront him over the accusation, despite the fact that Mr. Sandusky had been one of his assistant coaches for three decades and was a regular presence at the football team’s complex for years after the 2002 episode.
Mr. Sandusky, in a nearly four-hour interview over two days this week, insisted he had never sexually abused any child, but he confirmed details of some of the events that prosecutors have cited in charging him with 40 counts of molesting young boys, all of whom came to know Mr. Sandusky through the charity he founded, known as the Second Mile.
Mr. Sandusky said he regularly gave money to the disadvantaged boys at his charity, opened bank accounts for them, and gave them gifts that had been donated to the charity.
Prosecutors have said Mr. Sandusky used such gifts as a way to build a sense of trust and loyalty among boys he then repeatedly abused.
Mr. Sandusky, after repeated requests, agreed to the interview because he said his decades of work with children had been misunderstood and distorted by prosecutors.
“They’ve taken everything that I ever did for any young person and twisted it to say that my motives were sexual or whatever,” Mr. Sandusky said. He added: “I had kid after kid after kid who might say I was a father figure. And they just twisted that all.”
Yet over the course of the interview, Mr. Sandusky described what he admitted was a family and work life that could often be chaotic, even odd, one that lacked some classic boundaries between adults and children, and thus one that was open to interpretation — by those who have defended him as a generous mentor and those who have condemned him as a serial predator.
He said his household in State College, Pa., over the years came to be a kind of recreation center or second home for dozens of children from the charity, a place where games were played, wrestling matches staged, sleepovers arranged, and from where trips to out-of-town sporting events were launched. Asked directly why he appeared to interact with children who were not his own without many of the typical safeguards other adults might apply — showering with them, sleeping alone with them in hotel rooms, blowing on their stomachs — he essentially said that he saw those children as his own.
“It was, you know, almost an extended family,” Mr. Sandusky said of his household’s relationship with children from the charity. He then characterized his close experiences with children he took under his wing as “precious times,” and said that the physical aspect of the relationships “just happened that way.”
Wrestling, hugging — “I think a lot of the kids really reached out for that,” he said.
Mr. Sandusky said his wife, Dorothy, known as Dottie, ultimately had some concerns about the household dynamics. He said she had warned him not to neglect his own children — the Sanduskys had adopted six children, including one from the Second Mile — “for the sake of other kids.” Mr. Sandusky recalled one scene after a Penn State football game that underscored her concerns.
“I remember the kids were downstairs, and we always had dogs,” he said. “And Dottie said, ‘You better go down and check on those kids, you know those Second Mile kids after football games.’ I went down, and I look, and there goes a kid flying over a couch, there goes a dog flying over a couch. And I go, ‘I don’t think she wants to see this.’ ”
He said of his household: “Yeah, I mean it was turmoil. It was turmoil.”
During the interview, conducted at the home of his lawyer, Mr. Sandusky was at times subdued, but occasionally capable of humor — some of it awkward laughter about his legal jeopardy and ruined reputation, some of it bright amusement at a recalled anecdote about his own father, who himself had worked with disadvantaged and disabled children, or a moment of remembered comedy at one of the many summer camps he helped run for children.
He grew most animated when talking about his relationships with children, and he grew most disconsolate when he, with a touch of childlike reverence, spoke of Mr. Paterno and Penn State, and the damage his indictment had caused them. “I don’t think it was fair,” he said.
During the interview, Joseph Amendola, Mr. Sandusky’s lawyer, captured what he asserted was his client’s predicament:
“All those good things that you were doing have been turned around,” Mr. Amendola said, speaking to his client, “and the people who are painting you as a monster are saying, ‘Well, they’re the types of things that people who are pedophiles exhibit.’ ”
Prosecutors, in their indictment of Mr. Sandusky, charged him with a horrific array of abuse, including the repeated assaults of young boys.
Mr. Sandusky, in the interview, confirmed aspects of what prosecutors have said was a manipulative scheme: he gave money and gifts to Second Mile children, including computers and golf clubs. However, Mr. Sandusky presented his actions in a benevolent light.
“I would call kids on the phone and work with them academically,” he said. “I tried to reward them sometimes with a little money in hand, just so that they could see something. But more often than not, I tried to set up, maybe get them to save the money, and I put it directly into a savings account established for them.”
Sometimes, he said, he found work for the children at his football camps. Sometimes he bought them shoes or a shirt with his money. And sometimes, he passed along gifts to them that had been given to the charity by donors. “I never bought a computer for any kid; I had a computer given to me to give to a kid,” he said. “I never bought golf clubs. People gave things because they knew there would be kids. They wanted to get rid of things.”
It is unclear whether the supervisors or directors of the charity knew of Mr. Sandusky’s setting up bank accounts or giving away donated gifts. Investigators with the Pennsylvania attorney general’s office have subpoenaed the financial records of the charity, but say they have been alarmed to learn that some records from some years are missing.
Jack Raykovitz, the executive director of Second Mile, resigned after Mr. Sandusky’s indictment.
Mr. Sandusky, in the interview, said Penn State officials had contacted Mr. Raykovitz after the episode in 2002. An assistant football coach has told investigators that he saw Mr. Sandusky raping a young boy in the football building’s showers, and that he told Mr. Paterno some version of that scene the following day. Mr. Paterno has testified that he then informed the university’s athletic director, Tim Curley, that Mr. Sandusky had done something sexually inappropriate with a young boy.
Mr. Sandusky, in the interview, said word of an episode with a young boy in the shower reached Mr. Raykovitz. He said he talked with Mr. Raykovitz, and identified the boy he thought Penn State was concerned about. Mr. Sandusky, though, said Mr. Raykovitz did not see fit to limit his interaction with youths, in part because he was aware of the nature of Mr. Sandusky’s mentoring relationship with the boy, and in part because he knew Mr. Sandusky had undergone repeated background checks clearing him to work with children.
Mr. Raykovitz’s lawyer, Kevin L. Hand, called Mr. Sandusky’s account inaccurate, but refused to say more.
As for Mr. Paterno, Mr. Sandusky said the two never spoke about any incidents, not the episode in 2002 or an earlier complaint of child molestation made against Mr. Sandusky in 1998 that was investigated by the Penn State campus police.
“I never talked to him about either one,” Mr. Sandusky said of Mr. Paterno. “That’s all I can say. I mean, I don’t know.”
Mr. Paterno, through his son, Scott, has denied knowing about the 1998 investigation at the time it happened.
“He’s the only one who knows whether anybody ever said anything to him,” Mr. Sandusky said of Mr. Paterno.
In the interview, Mr. Sandusky, the longtime defensive coordinator at Penn State, said that his relationships and activities with Second Mile children did cause some strain with Mr. Paterno, but only in that Mr. Sandusky worried that having some of the children with him at hotels before games, or on the sideline during games, risked being seen as a distraction by the demanding Mr. Paterno.
“I would have dreams of we being in a squad meeting and that door fly open and kids come running through chasing one another, and what was I going to do?” he said. “Because, I mean, Joe was serious about football.”
Mr. Sandusky, despite expressing concern about talking about the formal charges made against him, did talk about his relationships with several of the eight people cited as victims by prosecutors last month. He said his relationships with more than one of them had extended for years after the suspected episodes of molestation or inappropriate behavior.
In 1998, the mother of a child reported concerns to the Penn State campus police when she learned her son had showered with Mr. Sandusky at the university. After an investigation, Mr. Sandusky admitted to the police and child welfare authorities that he had most likely done something inappropriate, according to prosecutors. The local district attorney declined to prosecute.
In the interview this week, Mr. Sandusky said the boy and his mother remained a part of his life for years. He said that the mother had sought him out for tickets to Penn State games for her son, and that Mr. Sandusky had contributed financially years later, when the young man, interested in the ministry, went on a mission.
“He went to Mexico in the poverty-stricken areas and worked with the kids and things like that,” Mr. Sandusky said of the young man. “He showed me, he sent me pictures of he and the kids.”
In the grand jury report, prosecutors cited Mr. Sandusky’s attempts to reach some of his accusers. He acknowledged that he reached out to at least one, but said he thought the young man might be a character witness on his behalf, and was unaware that prosecutors had listed him as a victim.
Asked how he came to be involved more closely with some children rather than others, Mr. Sandusky said he got to know many of them at Second Mile summer camps.
“Some of them sought me out,” Mr. Sandusky said.
Mr. Sandusky, facing grave charges and the possibility of imprisonment, discussed how much was now missing from his life, and how much more might be missing in the future.
“I miss coaching,” he said. “I miss Second Mile. I miss Second Mile kids. I miss interrelationships with all kinds of people. I miss my own grandkids. I miss, I mean you know I’m going to miss my dog. So, I mean, yeah, I miss, yeah. Good grief.
“I used to have a lot of contact with a lot of people and so that circle is diminished, and as it diminished, you know Bo is still there,” he said of his dog. “And I swear he understands. I swear he knows. And you know I love him dearly for that.”
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Sounds like a Michael Jackson.
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You want "facts" Al??? How bout these from the perv himself? He has opened his mouth again and said Paterno said NOTHING to him about the kids.
TxMike, I'm not even close to being competent to explain your obsession about Joe Paterno's supposed responsibility for Mr. Sandusky's behaviors, but the lengthy account you've provided seems to directly contradict your PRESUMPTION that Paterno was aware of what was alledgedly going on.
Your article seems to corroborate that Mr. Paterno and Mr. Sandusky didn't talk much about ANYTHING following his retirement, which apparently followed Paterno's decision that Mr. Sandusky would not be his choice for a replacement. I wonder if these men were even on speaking terms following Sandusky's retirement.
It would seem that you are absolutely, hell bent on connecting a lot of dots, many of which, exist only in your imagination, to shore up your rigid preconclusion, that has yet to be borne out by any confirming evidence. If that somehow makes you feel better about yourself, knock yourself out.
All this stuff about, "being proven guilty of something, before convicting" still seems to make sense to me, so I'll be satisfied waiting forr the "rest of the story" before clamoring to throw the switch, of course, if that's alright with you.
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http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Joe-Paterno-told-a-grand-jury-he-8216-knew-ina?urn=ncaaf-wp11597 (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Joe-Paterno-told-a-grand-jury-he-8216-knew-ina?urn=ncaaf-wp11597)
Paterno did not inform police and waited several days to meet with his boss, athletic director Tim Curley, because he "didn't want to interfere with their weekends
McQueary said he thought Curley and Schultz took his report seriously, and that he considered Schultz law enforcement because his position included oversight of campus police. "I thought I was talking to the head of the police, to be frank with you," McQueary said. "In my mind it was like speaking to a (district attorney). It was someone who police reported to and would know what to do with it."
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http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Joe-Paterno-told-a-grand-jury-he-8216-knew-ina?urn=ncaaf-wp11597 (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Joe-Paterno-told-a-grand-jury-he-8216-knew-ina?urn=ncaaf-wp11597)
Paterno did not inform police and waited several days to meet with his boss, athletic director Tim Curley, because he "didn't want to interfere with their weekends
Thank you for the reference to the above report, which concludes with the following, "Legally, prosecutors have determined that McQueary, Paterno and Spanier fulfilled their obligations under state law and are not expected to face charges."
Although much has been documented about the continuing relationship and priviledged position Sandusky maintained with PSU, following his resignation after being advised he would not be considered by Coach Paterno as a replacement, I haven't seen anything about whether or not there was any level of personal relationship maintained between Sandusky and Coach Paterno after the retirement.
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Thank you for the reference to the above report, which concludes with the following, "Legally, prosecutors have determined that McQueary, Paterno and Spanier fulfilled their obligations under state law and are not expected to face charges."
Dayum!!!! Why didn't I figure this out before? ? ? ? "AlUpstateNY" You are really Al Gore right? Cause your "no controlling legal authority" BS sounds just like him!!! Who cares if it was legal or not? it was WRONG even if your namby pamby self refuses to admit it.
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Dayum!!!! Why didn't I figure this out before? ? ? ? "AlUpstateNY" You are really Al Gore right? Cause your "no controlling legal authority" BS sounds just like him!!! Who cares if it was legal or not? it was WRONG even if your namby pamby self refuses to admit it.
I guess that's just part of the consequences of realizing that I'm not perfect. Joe Paterno has acknowledged he was wrong, and in hind sight, wishes he had done more. Like the rest of us admittedly un-perfect slobs, he'll have to deal with his mistake and move forward trying to do better.
Now if he was perfect, like you apparently see yourself TXMike, he couild climb up on a self constructed pulpit of all that is good and holy and lecture everybody on how things should always be done.
Actually, TXMike, I think you and Al Gore are way more alike, you both think you know everything, are always quick to hammer everyone else you decide have done something wrong, apparently thinking that by highlighting the mistakes of others, you somehow make yourself look better. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work as a lot of people still see Mr. Gore as just a windbag. Perhaps something else you and Mr. Gore have in common.
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It looks like it's all in the hands of the ultimate "Instant Replay, which is where it ultimately winds up and is really the only review that matters. Rest in Peace, Coach Paterno.
Like most of us hope to accomplish, your final tally shows a lot more good, for your having passed this way and the positive effect you've had on others, far outweighing those missteps you, like all the rest of us, may have made along the way. Condolences to your family.
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Maybe on your balance sheet that is how it looks but on mine. If one single kid was sexually abused AFTER the shower incident, Paterno bears responsibility, and that most certainly is NOT outweighed "by all the good".
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I guess I'm just not as perfect as you seem to think you are Mike, nor do I think anyone else gives a rat's BUTT about my personal balance sheet.
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You are not alone. There are plenty of others who are giving paterno a walk in exchange for all his "good deeds". But I suspect none of you have never been abused or known anyone close to you havd been. I guarantee you'd be singing a different tune if you had.
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Carrying a grudge, or a chip on your shoulder, even when it's understandable can become a really heavy load when carried too long. Joe Paterno is responsible for everything HE did, or didn't do, not everything that's ever been done.
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He is responsible for everything that was done and permitted to be done thanks to his "action" or lack therof.
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He is responsible for everything that was done and permitted to be done thanks to his "action" or lack therof.
I'm not anyway sure I understand what you might mean by, "thanks to his "action" or lack therof", but it sounds like a standard very few, IF ANYBODY, could possibly live up to.
I've got my hands absolutely full dealing with the responsibility for my own behavior, there's no way I could handle the responsibility for what others might do, on their own, totally beyond my control, or very likely, even awareness.
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Let me spell it out for you...
Had Paterno acted responsibly as sopon as he had the information from the red headed idiot, it is likely Sandusky would have been stopped from doing any further abuse soon thereafter. Since he did not act responsibly, if any other kids were abused by Sandusky after that point, paterno bears some responsibility for permitting it to occur
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Just an observation... nothing more:
It strikes me as being odd that little, if any, fingers have been pointed in the direction of the "red headed idiot", as Mike has characterized McQueary. It seems to me like he (McQueary) stuck his head in the sand once he brought the alleged transgression to JoPa's attention. Or have I missed something?
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He is being given a "walk" because: 1 - "He was young and by reporting it to King Paterno he did his duty" and 2 - He was apparently a key witness against Sandusky in the grand jury and will be at trial also.
I guess I just don't know any man who would have run away like a little biatch instead of stepping in at the moment he saw what was happening in the shower. Maybe that is why his "action" seem so foreign.
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Let me spell it out for you...
Had Paterno acted responsibly as sopon as he had the information from the red headed idiot, it is likely Sandusky would have been stopped from doing any further abuse soon thereafter. Since he did not act responsibly, if any other kids were abused by Sandusky after that point, paterno bears some responsibility for permitting it to occur
According to what I've read, Paterno reported it to, what he considered the appropriate source, the day after the evening he was advised of the incident. They apparently then met with the accuser to get the story first hand to initiate what Paterno believed (as history showed to be inaccurate) an appropriate investigation.
Where exactly did "irresponsible" happen? Paterno subsequently acknowledged, given the benefit of hindsight, he wished he had followed progress closer, but he assumed, again incorrectly, that the people he referred the matter to, were handling it properly.
Suggesting, "if any other kids were abused by Sandusky after that point, paterno bears some responsibility for permitting it to occur" is as misguided as someone complaining, "if you didn't throw that flag, we would have won."
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(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k507/moorej5/smiley_yawn.gif)
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According to what I've read, Paterno reported it to, what he considered the appropriate source, the day after the evening he was advised of the incident. .....
Where exactly did "irresponsible" happen? Paterno subsequently acknowledged, given the benefit of hindsight, he wished he had followed progress closer, but he assumed, again incorrectly, that the people he referred the matter to, were handling it properly.
What had been reported to him was a criminal offense. If someone who "answers" to you tells you of a criminal offense, are you simply going to push it up the food chain or are you going to make sure the people who are charged with responsibility to deal with this (THE POLICE) are actually aware of it and pursuing it? Maybe you support cover ups but I don't and I trust the large majority does not either. Paterno took little interest in what happened after he "reported it". I don't know this for a fact but i suspect because in his heart of hearts he wanted it to go away as he knew what it would bring on his "dynasty" if it became a criminal investigation. By doing that he helped ensure Sandusky stayed loose to continually victimize kids.
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What had been reported to him was a criminal offense. If someone who "answers" to you tells you of a criminal offense, are you simply going to push it up the food chain or are you going to make sure the people who are charged with responsibility to deal with this (THE POLICE) are actually aware of it and pursuing it?
Which is EXACTLY why I don't understand why McQueary is getting a pass.
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If someone who "answers" to you tells you of a criminal offense, are you simply going to push it up the food chain or are you going to make sure the people who are charged with responsibility to deal with this (THE POLICE) are actually aware of it and pursuing it?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Paterno reported it to the "chief" of police (the guy in charge of University police).
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Paterno called the AD a few days after getting the report from the red-headed idiot. The AD set up a meeting (which Paterno did not attend) where the idiot repeated his story to the AD and the school's senior VP, Gary Schultz. Schultz oversaw many things at the university and ultimately the University Police Chief answered to him. But this would be like saying if you reported a crime to the City Manager then you reported it to the police because the city manager supervises the Chief of Police.
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What had been reported to him was a criminal offense. If someone who "answers" to you tells you of a criminal offense, are you simply going to push it up the food chain or are you going to make sure the people who are charged with responsibility to deal with this (THE POLICE) are actually aware of it and pursuing it? Maybe you support cover ups ....
No, I don't support "cover ups", but searching for "fly droppings" in a black pepper wharehouse seems a an excessive, perhaps obsessive effort to me. You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. Let's get back to reality; McQuade told Paterno he saw what he considered improper, admitting he left out a lot of details, so what he said exactly, we don't know. That "report" was obviously troubling enough, although uncorroborated, admittedly lacking detail that Paterno IMMEDIATELY reported it to his superior, who subsequently met with McQuade to get the report 1st hand.
Coach Paterno had no business, no place nor any reason to attend that meeting as he had NO DIRECT information to add to it. I won't speak for you, TXMike, but I've learned, and expect, those who work for me, to bring problems involving our work environment TO ME, rather than decide when to go over my head, at which point I decide how to address the problem further. My superiors would expect me to follow a chain of command sequence as well, especially on a sensitive matter that HAD YET TO BE CORROBORATED.
This was not a work team situation, as Mr. Sandusky was retired and no longer part of this work group, or in any way Coach Paterno's responsibility. Aside from a long, inactive, former work relationship there was no connection. I'm willing to accept that Coach Paterno understood the "chain of command" at PSU a lot better than you, or I, and referred the matter to the level he believed best able to deal with it. Without DIRECT knowledge of a crime being committed, it's better to KNOW what you're talking about prior to involving police. Why McQuade didn't go directly to police is a whole different matter.
You may have chosen to leap onto a white charger and ride off a cliff, BEFORE a serious allegation was substantiated, but Coach Paterno decided to handle it, far more appropriately and involve his superiors for investigation and verification before reporting it TO THEIR SUPERIORS, which in this instance should have included police if the allegation appeared credible.
Not to be forgotten, the subsequent police investigation, which included a lot of facts and details generally unknown to the public, concluded Coach Paterno's handling of the situation was APPROPRIATE. The fact a State Police representative, offered an opinion way beyond his grasp or authority, only served to needlessly inflame the situation with a really stupid and inappropriate personal assessment.
You, TXMike, clearly have a burr up under your saddle about something, and throwing stones at Joe Paterno isn't likely going to help clear it. None of us are perfect, including Coach Paterno, but considering the legacy he clearly leaves behind and the positive impact he left on a huge number of people, it just doesn't seem worth a lot of effort to focus on a circumstance, clearly outside his direct involvement or control, that in his own hindsight, he admits he would have liked to have handled differently.
Joe Paterno is gone, RIP.
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Your problem is you want to hide your head in the sand just like Paterno did. You clearly do not know the facts of the case. It is easier to "justify" what happened when you are going off ignorance of the facts. I have followed it closely (surprise, surprise) and have read the verbatim transcripts of what the red-headed idiot, Paterno, and others have said. Paterno clearly knew he was being told the idiot saw a sexual act going on in that shower. All the rest of your babble is just that ..babble.
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Your problem is you want to hide your head in the sand just like Paterno did. You clearly do not know the facts of the case. It is easier to "justify" what happened when you are going off ignorance of the facts. I have followed it closely (surprise, surprise) and have read the verbatim transcripts of what the red-headed idiot, Paterno, and others have said. Paterno clearly knew he was being told the idiot saw a sexual act going on in that shower. All the rest of your babble is just that ..babble.
There's a very fine line between "following closely) and obsessing. You really need to find another subject to occupy yourself. The dots you are trying so desperately to connect, simply don't reach to where you've already decided they need to go.
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You don't know squat about the details and you are gonna tell me the dots don't connect? You sound like some of the scumbag attorneys and subjects I have run up against over the years. Well guess what..the glove fits so I do not acquit.
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Enjoy your level of righteousness, with luck and hard work you may live up to it yourself.
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Hey, Grant, can we put a lid on this thread?
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Keep out of it Rulesman.....I'm making more popcorn. :sTiR:
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Dadgum!!! Someone made you click on it? You don't have to slow down and look at the wreck on the side of the road but lots of folks do don't they?
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I agree with a lot of what Mike has said, except I'm going to defend McQuery. He told the head coach, the AD, and the Chief of Police. Who else was he supposed to contact, Chuck Norris? Baghdad Bob?
The thing that bothers me the most is that no one is even talking about the investigator on this case that went missing around 2005. I'd still like to know the full story on that deal.
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It was an Assistant DA who went missing.
As for the redhead...he should have intervened at that moment and not walked away. No matter who he told after that he still failed in my eyes and I would hope in the eyes of most others. I know Al does not see it that way but that is par for his course.
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I know Al does not see it that way but that is par for his course.
Perhaps in your dreams, TXMike, but you have no idea "what Al sees". For whatever reason, you apparently felt it necessary to try and make your own halo shine by throwing all sorts of imaginary mud on the reputation of a man, although probably far from perfect, who managed to produce a pretty commendable lifetime of accomplishment and good work.
Sorry, but how much your personal halo glows is going to be based exclusively on how you conduct yourself, rather than how hard you try and polish it infront of others, or how much dirt you try and smuge on the halos of others.
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Did you even read before you started blabbering?
The comment I made went to the redheaded wimp arse former QB so-called coach and what he did not do. What "lifetime of accomplishment and good work" does have?
But to your comment..are you saying that a "lifetime of accomplishment and good work" is enough to balance out a guy's continuing sexual abuse of children ? ! ??!!??
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This exchange isn't going anywhere. Agree to disagree and let's move on.