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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Ralph Damren on September 18, 2019, 09:25:48 AM
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While we all were faced with the advent of the 40" clock (except those in experimental states) , our friends from the commonwealth have had to learn over 300 rule differences with NFHS. Referee Mag. has a very good article on this and I'm checking to see how it's going from those from Mass. ......
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So far so good. No major issues that we've heard of and our assigning commissioner (who has 34+/- schools) who we see every week at our meetings is not inundating us with coach's complaints and game films of our mistakes. 1 failure to kill a defensive encroachment and one failure to kill a blocked try that was run back a short distance. If we messed up any penalty enforcements I'm guessing that the coaches did not notice since we've had no "formal" complaints. That being said, our games so far have been "non-league" with the "real" league games starting this week and next. We'll see how it goes as we move forward.
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No major issues so far. Had a fans complain we didn't enforce an automatic first down on a DPI. It was 2nd an 18 and just marched off 15.
I guess coaches are still learning the rules so complaining YET.
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Glad to read that you guys are handling the change smoothly. I think of you guys when I hear our guys gripe about the 40" clock which is also running smoother than I felt it would. IMHO, the Rule 10 (penalty enforcement) differences will be the biggest challenge. Several years ago we were told that NFHS had 16 exceptions under penalty enforcement while NCAA had +70. For a new guy learning, it will be easier to get a handle. For the veteran official it, it will require a change in mind-set. I'm sure you'll be able to adjust just as we do on "40 clock. Good Luck.
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My first game last Friday was ok. Have to get used to the total game time which ended up being 2.5 hours!! I just have to remember the whole blow and throw which made things run a bit longer. I just don't want to make a Friday call on Saturday which is the fear of a lot of officials I officiate with.
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Is that longer or shorter than normal? Sounds like normal game time around here.
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Is that longer or shorter than normal? Sounds like normal game time around here.
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We were told by the experimenting states that the length of game didn't really differ. Two noticeable events were mentioned :
(1) Fewer DOG fouls;
(2) Fewer number of plays needed from victory formation.
We will still have the 1:50 games...we also will still have the 3:00 games. When we go running time the 2nd half lasts about a half hour. :)
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Is that longer or shorter than normal? Sounds like normal game time around here.
Its longer. I'm hoping that it was just an anomaly though. We did have a few DOG calls even when being liberal with the play clock. We also got some heckling over some OPI and DH calls that didn't result in automatic first downs but oh well.
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Yeah I can imagine how that went. I’m late to the conversation- what made the powers that be want to change codes?
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Yeah I can imagine how that went. I’m late to the conversation- what made the powers that be want to change codes?
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Word is that the "powers that be" wanted a seat at the FED table. The problem that us officials have is that the change didn't have to occur overnight if it needed to change. A lot of officials don't feel prepared enough for the season. I went to several rules clinics in the spring and summer with some out of state interpreters and the biggest take away was "use common sense". Needless to say it wasn't that helpful to the coaches and officials in attendance.
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Word is that the "powers that be" wanted a seat at the FED table. The problem that us officials have is that the change didn't have to occur overnight if it needed to change. A lot of officials don't feel prepared enough for the season. I went to several rules clinics in the spring and summer with some out of state interpreters and the biggest take away was "use common sense". Needless to say it wasn't that helpful to the coaches and officials in attendance.
I understand. One reason I never pursued college officiating was the differences in the rules. There’s just enough to keep you guessing. We had a deep wing who also works college work a playoff game with us and mechanically he was top notch. But he kept questioning my penalty enforcement. Most of it was foreign to him because of the different codes.
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I officiate college as well. I'm not really worried about making a mistake in the college game. I think i'm more likely to apply NCAA enforcement to a high school game. To be honest if I did no one would even know because its all so new.
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I officiate college as well. I'm not really worried about making a mistake in the college game. I think i'm more likely to apply NCAA enforcement to a high school game. To be honest if I did no one would even know because its all so new.
I agree. My experience with the deep wing guy made me believe his WH on Friday night (who is the same WH in his Saturday games) is using NCAA enforcements on Friday night.
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So maybe not quite so well? Rumors came to fruition last night when one of the teams in the Mayflower League (17 schools in Division 8 - MA's lowest enrollment division) declined to play a game where the home team insisted on playing 12 minute quarters. This past summer the majority of the league AD's had voted (twice at 2 different meetings) to continue their games using 10 minute quarters (as the Mayflower League has played for many years).
For some history, prior to 2019, the MIAA has always allowed the individual leagues to select the length of quarters (from either 10, 11, or 12 mins) for high school varsity contests. The result of that has been that the schools pretty much followed the enrollment numbers to determine length of quarters where higher divisions played 12 mins, mid-level divisions played 11 mins, and lower levels played 10 mins. Additionally, MA allowed 5 timeouts per half (3 full TO's and 2-30 sec TO's) which also changed this year (to NFHS 3 TO's per half). We've been told that MIAA had formally requested "waivers" for both the length of periods and for the 5 TO's, but the request was denied by NFHS.
Not sure where this is going but stay tuned. (See attachment)
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So maybe not quite so well? Rumors came to fruition last night when one of the teams in the Mayflower League (17 schools in Division 8 - MA's lowest enrollment division) declined to play a game where the home team insisted on playing 12 minute quarters. This past summer the majority of the league AD's had voted (twice at 2 different meetings) to continue their games using 10 minute quarters (as the Mayflower League has played for many years).
For some history, prior to 2019, the MIAA has always allowed the individual leagues to select the length of quarters (from either 10, 11, or 12 mins) for high school varsity contests. The result of that has been that the schools pretty much followed the enrollment numbers to determine length of quarters where higher divisions played 12 mins, mid-level divisions played 11 mins, and lower levels played 10 mins. Additionally, MA allowed 5 timeouts per half (3 full TO's and 2-30 sec TO's) which also changed this year (to NFHS 3 TO's per half). We've been told that MIAA had formally requested "waivers" for both the length of periods and for the 5 TO's, but the request was denied by NFHS.
Not sure where this is going but stay tuned. (See attachment)
Yes. It was South Shore Voke.
https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/09/19/south-shore-decides-not-to-play-its-football-against-west-bridgewater-friday/
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We've been told that MIAA had formally requested "waivers" for both the length of periods and for the 5 TO's, but the request was denied by NFHS.
Not sure where this is going but stay tuned. (See attachment)
But... Rule 3.1.3 states that any period may be shortened with mutual agreement of the head coaches and officials. Fundamentally, you don't need a waiver for that.
Obviously, in this case, you didn't have the agreement since one team wanted 10 minute and the other wanted 12 minutes. The 5 TO thing is also.... unique in my experience.
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Even more unique if you consider that basketball in Massachusetts uses 5 60-second timeouts in a game, instead of the standard 3 60 and 2 30-second timeouts. MA is full of all sorts of weird modifications to the rules (such as the floating quarter lengths for football in prior years).
IMO, I would have preferred for MA to remain NCAA rules, if only to have some place other than Texas playing high school football by college rules. It would be much easier to move from high school to NCAA if the only difference was mechanics instead of mechanics and rules. Oh, well.
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Even more unique if you consider that basketball in Massachusetts uses 5 60-second timeouts in a game, instead of the standard 3 60 and 2 30-second timeouts. MA is full of all sorts of weird modifications to the rules (such as the floating quarter lengths for football in prior years).
IMO, I would have preferred for MA to remain NCAA rules, if only to have some place other than Texas playing high school football by college rules. It would be much easier to move from high school to NCAA if the only difference was mechanics instead of mechanics and rules. Oh, well.
Until about 12 years or so ago, Mass. also played basketball with 16-minute halves.
in baseball, some leagues played nine-inning games, too.
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But... Rule 3.1.3 states that any period may be shortened with mutual agreement of the head coaches and officials. Fundamentally, you don't need a waiver for that.
Again, we've been told that we (MA) were officially denied the "required" NFHS waiver to continue our longstanding practice of allowing each league to set their times (10, 11, or 12 minute periods) for the 2019 season. We've also been told that Rule 3.1.3 applies to an individual in game situation with specific time issues and not a blanket "before the season starts" decision to play all games with less than 12 minute quarters.
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The "safety" arguments against playing 12-minute quarters make me cackle.
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Me too. We play 12:00 quarters here in the Deep South with no problems so it can’t be heat related.
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Me too. We play 12:00 quarters here in the Deep South with no problems so it can’t be heat related.
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Not sure of your exact circumstances but it's not just a heat issue. There are many of the smaller schools with total enrollments of 400-500 students (4 grades both boys and girls) that have 25-30 players with 12-15 of those players who play virtually the whole game both ways. We don't have the "smaller" (6 man or 8 man) teams in MA like so many other states have. That's a safety issue in all codes at all levels. The shorter periods was just an attempt to minimize at least a little bit the amount of contact per player per game.
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Not sure of your exact circumstances but it's not just a heat issue. There are many of the smaller schools with total enrollments of 400-500 students (4 grades both boys and girls) that have 25-30 players with 12-15 of those players who play virtually the whole game both ways. We don't have the "smaller" (6 man or 8 man) teams in MA like so many other states have. That's a safety issue in all codes at all levels. The shorter periods was just an attempt to minimize at least a little bit the amount of contact per player per game.
My high school had 300 and played 12:00 quarters. Still does. Your argument doesn't hold water.
Sorry, but I simply refuse to believe that playing 4 extra minutes per game is going to compromise anyone's safety.
49 other states play 12-minute quarters with no issue. I find it hard to believe circumstances in Massachusetts warrant sparing "the poor kids" from those extra 4 minutes.
Then again, Massachusetts is the state that requires basketball officials to observe the postgame handshake, so nonsense like this doesn't surprise me.
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In my games so far...
- Failed to carry over DPI on a successful 2-point conversion to the kickoff. Oops
- Have seen very, very few low blocks, even legal ones. I think coaches are scared to teach it.
- A team tried to have the FG holder pitch the ball to the kicker while kneeling. Luckily I wasn't the WH in this game because I didn't know that rule either. Now I do, though.
- Still not sure whether we're required to have a halftime countdown and then put three minutes on the clock and count down again, or whether we can just tell the coaches "when it says 3:00, that's the start of the warmup period". Is this a legal thing where if a player gets hurt in the second half they sue the officials? But if we do halftime in two parts we're not liable? Seems like the "mandatory" aspect of the warmup period should be a requirement that's binding on the coach, not on the officials. I can't force the players to do stretches, after all.
- There was a rumor going around that "defer" is not an option in Fed. Hopefully that got quashed by now.
- Everyone in stripes loves the 40-second play clock. Maybe these snowflake coaches are right that the number of PLAYS in a Massachusetts quarter has gone up, but I can tell you the number of actual MINUTES in a Massachusetts quarter has gone down if anything. First down, kill it and WIND IT - this more than compensates for the extra game clock minutes.
- We've already shut down multiple extra point attempts for defensive encroachment. The kick sails through the uprights as the whistles blow. K's coach doesn't always appreciate this rule but they'll get used to it. Frankly if I were a coach, I'd teach R to guess the snap and not be afraid to jump early. Best case, you time it right and the officials don't even call it. Worst case, you get to ice the kicker without taking a timeout. It's almost free. The only drawback is he gets to kick it from the 1.5 yard line instead, which might not even be all that advantageous for him, now that it's not the exact yard line he's practiced a thousand times. And the ACTUAL best case, maybe you mess with his head and cause a miss.
- Related: Lots of griping from coaches and officials that "Fed hates offense." To wit: If an OL holds, it becomes 1st and 26 or something, but if the defense jumps offside you don't even get a free play out of it. We'll all "get used to it" but I doubt we'll ever LIKE it.
- One personal gripe: I can't stand not having a PDF rulebook
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- Still not sure whether we're required to have a halftime countdown and then put three minutes on the clock and count down again, or whether we can just tell the coaches "when it says 3:00, that's the start of the warmup period". Is this a legal thing where if a player gets hurt in the second half they sue the officials? But if we do halftime in two parts we're not liable? Seems like the "mandatory" aspect of the warmup period should be a requirement that's binding on the coach, not on the officials. I can't force the players to do stretches, after all.
Pretty sure there's a FED case play that says the mandatory three minutes must be put up and started separately after the "normal" halftime.
If not, almost all states do it that way.
We're just told that the 3:00 must be given. It's on the coaches to decide what to do with it.
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Pretty sure there's a FED case play that says the mandatory three minutes must be put up and started separately after the "normal" halftime.
If not, almost all states do it that way.
We're just told that the 3:00 must be given. It's on the coaches to decide what to do with it.
Still not a Fed official, but this rule language sounds pretty clear to me: "The game officials are responsible for ensuring that there is a three-minute warm-up period posted on the clock and the clock immediately started for use by the coaches immediately after the halftime intermission expires." So it is added to the 10-20 minute intermission time, and by rule you cannot eg. set the intermission clock to 18:00 and tell the coaches that "when it hits 3:00, warm-up period starts."
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My high school had 300 and played 12:00 quarters. Still does. Your argument doesn't hold water.
Gee, the football codes at virtually every pre-college level strictly mandate a limited amount of contact practices based on years of collected medical studies and repetitious contact injuries but when the games starts that doesn't matter? They must be overstating the problem and that has nothing to do with the massive decline in football participation at the pre-college levels? Why not just play 15 minute quarters like the real men do???
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Gee, the football codes at virtually every pre-college level strictly mandate a limited amount of contact practices based on years of collected medical studies and repetitious contact injuries but when the games starts that doesn't matter? They must be overstating the problem and that has nothing to do with the massive decline in football participation at the pre-college levels? Why no just play 15 minute quarters like the real men do???
There are inherent risks in playing any sport, football included.
Where does it stop? 10:00? 8:00? 6:00?
Do you honestly believe an additional 4:00 of playing time per game (most of which will be dead balls, btw) is going to lead to more injuries? Why don't you take up your cause with the 49 states that play 12:00 quarters without any of the complaining that people in your state are doing?
Maybe MIAA should use their new seat on the NFHS committee to propose a change to 11:00 quarters nationally. Doubt they'd get the support to change it - it's a solution looking for a problem as evidenced by the fact that 49/50 states are just fine with the NFHS rule.
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Do you honestly believe an additional 4:00 of playing time per game (most of which will be dead balls, btw) is going to lead to more injuries? Why don't you take up your cause with the 49 states that play 12:00 quarters without any of the complaining that people in your state are doing?
Gee another inaccurate statement. The documented studies that say we should do our best to limit the actual collision/contact are nationwide and not just Massachusetts. Many of the other states have chosen to address the issue with 6 and 8 man games so that players do not need to play nearly every down. Massachusetts chose to address the issue more that 20 years ago by allowing each league to determine the best timing to fit their circumstances. NFHS has "safer" rules to protect the student athlete yet they don't allow the single most injured player to throw the ball away on an attempted pass play? That's really special.
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Gee another inaccurate statement. The documented studies that say we should do our best to limit the actual collision/contact are nationwide and not just Massachusetts. Many of the other states have chosen to address the issue with 6 and 8 man games so that players do not need to play nearly every down. Massachusetts chose to address the issue more that 20 years ago by allowing each league to determine the best timing to fit their circumstances. NFHS has "safer" rules to protect the student athlete yet they don't allow the single most injured player to throw the ball away on an attempted pass play? That's really special.
Please point out the inaccuracy of my statement. Which states aren't playing 12:00 quarters?
At what point will NFHS rules be deemed safe enough for Massachusetts folks not to complain? Seriously. How long should quarters be nationally?
And the intentional grounding rule at higher levels has nothing to do with safety. It has everything to do with coaches wanting QBs to be allowed to ground the ball. By your logic, why does NCAA still allow a significant amount of blocking below the waist?
There has been no study showing that HS QBs are getting injured at high rates due to not being able to ground the ball. If you have some numbers to back up your claim (and your complaint about 12:00 quarters), please share them.
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NFHS has "safer" rules to protect the student athlete yet they don't allow the single most injured player to throw the ball away on an attempted pass play? That's really special.
Under the NFHS code, the passer can still "throw the ball away", when the defense has outplayed them, but shouldn't expect the defense to pay for the privilege of that decision. Doing so may cost the offense 5 yards and loss of down, but that may be far less expensive than trying to continue THEIR play call through a natural completion (that the defense has thwarted).
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Pretty sure there's a FED case play that says the mandatory three minutes must be put up and started separately after the "normal" halftime.
If not, almost all states do it that way.
We're just told that the 3:00 must be given. It's on the coaches to decide what to do with it.
Remember, by mutual agreement of the coaches the halftime can be shortened down to 10 minutes. Several years ago we Mainers adopted the following protocol :
(1) Once 10 minutes has expired, if both teams are back on the field, we assume that's implied agreement to shorten the halftime;
(2) if either coach wishes the full halftime, he can request that and be granted so by the referee;
(3) if not, we put the 3:00 warmup on the clock and wind.
We mention this at each coaches clinic prior to the beginning of each season for the new coaches and to remind the old. Have never had a problem yet. We also put 3:00 up and run down prior to the first OT in a tied game -subsequent overtimes unnecessary.
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Please point out the inaccuracy of my statement. Which states aren't playing 12:00 quarters?
Nothing to do with what other states are doing with timing. Other states minimize the number of plays a player on a small numbers team plays by playing 6 or 8 man games. That happens in many states. MA has opted for over 2 decades to take the advice of the medical community and many well documented sports health studies and allow each league to select a quarter time that best fits their needs and stay with 11 member teams. A different approach to address the same issue.
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- Have seen very, very few low blocks, even legal ones. I think coaches are scared to teach it.
NFHS has a much more limited space and time they can cut so there are a lot fewer opportunities when a player can legally cut.
- Still not sure whether we're required to have a halftime countdown and then put three minutes on the clock and count down again, or whether we can just tell the coaches "when it says 3:00, that's the start of the warmup period". Is this a legal thing where if a player gets hurt in the second half they sue the officials? But if we do halftime in two parts we're not liable? Seems like the "mandatory" aspect of the warmup period should be a requirement that's binding on the coach, not on the officials. I can't force the players to do stretches, after all.
The reason for the split is the teams HAVE to be back on the field by the time the clock hits 0:00 for the stated halftime. We're pretty liberal with it and if we see the team walking toward the field we don't flag it. But it technically is the rule. If the team has a long walk we'll wait a little to start the 3:00, but we always require it and run it. Teams usually use it.
- Related: Lots of griping from coaches and officials that "Fed hates offense." To wit: If an OL holds, it becomes 1st and 26 or something, but if the defense jumps offside you don't even get a free play out of it. We'll all "get used to it" but I doubt we'll ever LIKE it.
I've always hated that penalty enforcement for the reason you stated. I try to get the flag as close to the LOS as possible unless it truly was a foul well behind the LOS.
- One personal gripe: I can't stand not having a PDF rulebook
That is definitely a perk of NCAA. The NFHS does have a pretty good app you can purchase rule and case books through. It's searchable like the PDF and easier to use on your phone.
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- One personal gripe: I can't stand not having a PDF rulebook
So I have found a site every year that has a complete searchable copy of the rulebook in pdf format that is posted one year "late" (the current one is 2018). I use it extensively along with a pdf'd text scan of the rule changes from the changes section of the current year's book. I find the ability to text search terms to be invaluable.
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So I have found a site every year that has a complete searchable copy of the rulebook in pdf format that is posted one year "late" (the current one is 2018). I use it extensively along with a pdf'd text scan of the rule changes from the changes section of the current year's book. I find the ability to text search terms to be invaluable.
Amazon has a Kindle version of the rule book for the last few years. If you don't have a kindle, get the kindle app for your computer and your phone. Fully searchable, make notes, highlight, etc. Cost is either $6 or $7.
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With our state dues we get access to the NFHS website with publications, Rules, case books and officials manual. it also has 2017-2018 Football handbook. i also got an email sayin that NFHS Football rules book was available to download on my phone and I did that they are all searchable and the one on the phone is highlightable and you can put in notes.
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The coaches can agree to any halftime length between 10-20 minutes. If they want a 15-minute total, they can simply make the halftime 12 minutes, plus three for the mandatory warmup period.
Coaches around here want as long as they can get at the half. Those band parents can be quite fierce if their program gets cut short!
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I guess it's an implied mutual agreement, but usually around here we talk with the home team coach and ask how long halftime is, then go inform the visiting coach what he said. I don't think I've realized that (fundamentally) the visiting coach could object.
I'm also waiting for a coach to give a non-integer halftime length -- 13:27 + 3 minute warmup.
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I only remember one time in 28 years when the halftime was an issue. It was cold wet and raining so the bands didn’t make the trip. Both coaches agreed to shorten the half to 15 minutes. Every other game I’ve called in Mississippi has been 20 minute half. Still, when I have the coaches meeting for the coin toss I always say, “ y’all good with a 20 minute half?” Theyre like, “yea, Duh.”
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Nothing to do with what other states are doing with timing. Other states minimize the number of plays a player on a small numbers team plays by playing 6 or 8 man games. That happens in many states. MA has opted for over 2 decades to take the advice of the medical community and many well documented sports health studies and allow each league to select a quarter time that best fits their needs and stay with 11 member teams. A different approach to address the same issue.
Then just have the state order all coaches that they *will* give mutual consent to shorten quarters to 10 minutes, if they're that scared. What a non-problem.
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Here's the latest.
https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/09/26/miaa-member-schools-at-odds-over-12-minute-quarters-in-football/
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So they were fine with the fairly liberal low block rules in NCAA but a few extra minutes a game is worth forfeiting over? They don't realize how silly they look to every other football person in the country right now. It would very ironic that they change to NFHS rules because they want a say in the rules by being on the rules committee and they could possibly lose their seat if they stand hard on this. It's like that argument you get in and you know you are 100% wrong but you are too stubborn to give in or admit you were insane. They've gone too far now to change course unless absolutely forced to do it.
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The change had nothing to do with the coaches and players in my opinion, more so with the administrators of the MIAA and whatever benefits they could reap from being able to vote. As the article stated, many principals don't even know what we could even vote for, let alone losing said voting power.
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- Still not sure whether we're required to have a halftime countdown and then put three minutes on the clock and count down again, or whether we can just tell the coaches "when it says 3:00, that's the start of the warmup period". Is this a legal thing where if a player gets hurt in the second half they sue the officials? But if we do halftime in two parts we're not liable? Seems like the "mandatory" aspect of the warmup period should be a requirement that's binding on the coach, not on the officials. I can't force the players to do stretches, after all.
If halftime is 15 minutes, then it is 15:00 + 3:00 This is Very Clear see Table 3-1 on pages 40-41
- There was a rumor going around that "defer" is not an option in Fed. Hopefully that got quashed by now.
You can defer in NFHS
- Everyone in stripes loves the 40-second play clock. Maybe these snowflake coaches are right that the number of PLAYS in a Massachusetts quarter has gone up, but I can tell you the number of actual MINUTES in a Massachusetts quarter has gone down if anything. First down, kill it and WIND IT - this more than compensates for the extra game clock minutes.
- We've already shut down multiple extra point attempts for defensive encroachment. The kick sails through the uprights as the whistles blow. K's coach doesn't always appreciate this rule but they'll get used to it. Frankly if I were a coach, I'd teach R to guess the snap and not be afraid to jump early. Best case, you time it right and the officials don't even call it. Worst case, you get to ice the kicker without taking a timeout. It's almost free. The only drawback is he gets to kick it from the 1.5 yard line instead, which might not even be all that advantageous for him, now that it's not the exact yard line he's practiced a thousand times. And the ACTUAL best case, maybe you mess with his head and cause a miss.
Remember - In NFHS You may accept the penalty and the distance penalty for any foul may be declined. ( See Rule 10-1-1) So for Encroachment on a TRY, the Captain (The kicker) more often than not, can be convinced (with a little coaching) to accept the penalty but decline the yardage. (Still snapped from the three, still kicked from the 10) If you explain it to him, he will likely take that option as opposed to kicking the ball into the snappers butt!
- Related: Lots of griping from coaches and officials that "Fed hates offense." To wit: If an OL holds, it becomes 1st and 26 or something, but if the defense jumps offside you don't even get a free play out of it. We'll all "get used to it" but I doubt we'll ever LIKE it.
- One personal gripe: I can't stand not having a PDF rulebook
Order a printed oneat www.nfhs.com $10.00 for a Rules Book and another $10.00 for the Case Book
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So they were fine with the fairly liberal low block rules in NCAA but a few extra minutes a game is worth forfeiting over? They don't realize how silly they look to every other football person in the country right now. It would very ironic that they change to NFHS rules because they want a say in the rules by being on the rules committee and they could possibly lose their seat if they stand hard on this. It's like that argument you get in and you know you are 100% wrong but you are too stubborn to give in or admit you were insane. They've gone too far now to change course unless absolutely forced to do it.
Not caring about what the rest of the country thinks of us is a proud tradition in this state.
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Some people are blaming this "fifth down" mistake on the change to NFHS rules.
https://twitter.com/MHSFCA4/status/1194605830060023808
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/high-schools/2019/11/12/central-catholic-benefited-from-fifth-down-its-football-playoff-win/9iqQ9Ofv8IBjSQWPU6flpN/story.html
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Some people are blaming this "fifth down" mistake on the change to NFHS rules.
https://twitter.com/MHSFCA4/status/1194605830060023808
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/high-schools/2019/11/12/central-catholic-benefited-from-fifth-down-its-football-playoff-win/9iqQ9Ofv8IBjSQWPU6flpN/story.html
I can'at imagine how the NFHS rule differences were involved here. The was nothing here that would be different in college.
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I can'at imagine how the NFHS rule differences were involved here. The was nothing here that would be different in college.
Because media people are idiots and are completely unqualified to be bashing officials. Granted, the issue they reference is a horrible mistake and unacceptable, but still. The writer tried to explain the mistake by mentioning that holding on a running play is a spot foul in NFHS and the officials may have been confused because the runner advanced beyond the line to gain...yeah, that's a spot foul at all levels of football, pal. The officials also had no option to correct the mistake at the end of the quarter since three plays had already been run since the mistake. And just to pile on, the continued arguing would be a UNS, not a personal foul. But do continue to enlighten us with your rules knowledge, Mr Journalist.
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The officials also had no option to correct the mistake at the end of the quarter since three plays had already been run since the mistake.
The factor here that prevented the crew from correcting the error was solely the end of the quarter. In this case the number of plays run since the down error was not relevant. We can always correct a down number error during any series prior to the chains moving and the ball being marked RFP for a following 1st down.
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The factor here that prevented the crew from correcting the error was solely the end of the quarter. In this case the number of plays run since the down error was not relevant. We can always correct a down number error during any series prior to the chains moving and the ball being marked RFP for a following 1st down.
Correct, my wording on that was poor. I meant that it had already been 3 plays since they had awarded the new series of downs, but going back now it says they didn't ever move the sticks and made the adjustment on third down. I'm not sure how all 5 guys on the crew could allow that to happen without getting together and talking about it. It's not like the chain crew just moved and nobody caught it. Odd.
In any event, it's certainly not an issue that has anything to do with NFHS rules. It's simply a crew error.
Edit: actually they *did* set it back to first down, but then again corrected after the box person tried to switch it to 3rd down as the second down play was occurring. So the question then is, did they correct it to 1st and 13 or did they set it to 1st and 10 for some reason? Had they set it to 1st and 10 (for some reason) that would constitute a new series of downs, but it sounds like they set it to 1st and 13.
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So I'm having trouble visualizing/defining to myself what occurred here, the way the article is written.
Is the issue that on the penalty enforcement, it still should have been 2nd down, and they somehow thought that the box had already been set to 2, and then told them to put it back to first down, to replay the down?
I'm just not getting why the article say 'perhaps they thought the penalty occurred far enough beyond the line.' Wouldn't the (accepted) foul have to have been at the 12, for the result of the play to have been a first down at the 22? 12 yardline for the foul, mark off 10?
this article is incredibly confusing to me as to figuring out what exactly happened in this sequence
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I’m with you, but the only sense I can make is that the guy writing assumed if the penalty had been far enough ahead of the chains the crew could have awarded A a new series even with the penalty. That’s the only thing I can come up with. Instead of replaying 2nd down they have them a first down even after the penalty.
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Pretty sure there's a FED case play that says the mandatory three minutes must be put up and started separately after the "normal" halftime.
If not, almost all states do it that way.
We're just told that the 3:00 must be given. It's on the coaches to decide what to do with it.
In my games this year most of the R's have instructed the CO's to put 15, 12, or 10, minutes on the clock (based on pregame discussions with both coaches) and then to stop the clock at 3:00. Wait/confirm that both teams are back on the field then start the clock from that 3 minute mark. Seems to be working pretty well for us. We've been instructed that the last 3 minutes cannot run until both teams are present on the field.
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I’m with you, but the only sense I can make is that the guy writing assumed if the penalty had been far enough ahead of the chains the crew could have awarded A a new series even with the penalty. That’s the only thing I can come up with. Instead of replaying 2nd down they have them a first down even after the penalty.
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I'm confused on this, too. A mechanic we use to determine, if after the penalty is to be enforced a new series will be created, is :
(1) Replace the flag with the ball.
(2) Bring out the chains.
(3) Secure the lead stake.
(4) Bring the trail stake around so it is now the lead stake.
(5) If the ball is inside the now lead stake, you don't have a new series. If the ball is touching or in advance of the lead stake, you do.
Don't bother if the game is a blowout, but you may want to if the game is on the line.
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Yeah I agree. I’m sure it wasn’t the case. Just a journalist thinking aloud without knowing what he was talking about.
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In my games this year most of the R's have instructed the CO's to put 15, 12, or 10, minutes on the clock (based on pregame discussions with both coaches) and then to stop the clock at 3:00. Wait/confirm that both teams are back on the field then start the clock from that 3 minute mark. Seems to be working pretty well for us. We've been instructed that the last 3 minutes cannot run until both teams are present on the field.
We run the 10, 15, or 20 minutes for halftime (or more, for homecoming), then the R winds the clock once the teams have vacated the field. At the end of halftime, our clock operators put the three minutes on the clock and the R again winds the clock.
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I'm confused on this, too. A mechanic we use to determine, if after the penalty is to be enforced a new series will be created, is :
(1) Replace the flag with the ball.
(2) Bring out the chains.
(3) Secure the lead stake.
(4) Bring the trail stake around so it is now the lead stake.
(5) If the ball is inside the now lead stake, you don't have a new series. If the ball is touching or in advance of the lead stake, you do.
Don't bother if the game is a blowout, but you may want to if the game is on the line.
If you are on a well marked field and use the lines to start a new series just look at where the ball is in relation to the line the penalty distance in advance or behind the line to gain.
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In my games this year most of the R's have instructed the CO's to put 15, 12, or 10, minutes on the clock (based on pregame discussions with both coaches) and then to stop the clock at 3:00. Wait/confirm that both teams are back on the field then start the clock from that 3 minute mark. Seems to be working pretty well for us. We've been instructed that the last 3 minutes cannot run until both teams are present on the field.
So what happens when a team doesn't come back out in a timely manner to start the last 3 minutes? Do you just sit and wait for them? It's very likely that it has never happened, but at some point that is a USC penalty on the head coach.
Also, by rule, halftime cannot be shorter than 10 minutes which *does not* include the 3 minute warm up period. If you have a 10 minute halftime where the 3 minute warm up is the final 3 of those ten, then your halftime is only 7 minutes long -- in violation of 3-1-1.
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So what happens when a team doesn't come back out in a timely manner to start the last 3 minutes? Do you just sit and wait for them? It's very likely that it has never happened, but at some point that is a USC penalty on the head coach.
Also, by rule, halftime cannot be shorter than 10 minutes which *does not* include the 3 minute warm up period. If you have a 10 minute halftime where the 3 minute warm up is the final 3 of those ten, then your halftime is only 7 minutes long -- in violation of 3-1-1.
If the teams are not in sight when the clock hits 3:00, then the wing officials go get their respective teams. We have never (in a crew I've been on) flagged a team for coming out late for the 2nd half. The halftime length is always part of the pregame discussion that the R+U have with the head coaches and the length of that time is based on their agreement. That's worked OK all year and based on our guidance from the MIAA is fine with the caveat that we must have a full 3 minutes at the end of the intermission with both teams present on the field.
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Also, by rule, halftime cannot be shorter than 10 minutes which *does not* include the 3 minute warm up period. If you have a 10 minute halftime where the 3 minute warm up is the final 3 of those ten, then your halftime is only 7 minutes long -- in violation of 3-1-1.
Agreed, but for whatever reason a lot of associations seem to allow fudging it during halftime. Some include the 3 in the time, others ignore if the 3 never gets put up, and plenty allow more than 20 minutes (mostly for homecoming) even though the rule and case book are very clear that they're not allowed to do that.
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If the teams are not in sight when the clock hits 3:00, then the wing officials go get their respective teams. We have never (in a crew I've been on) flagged a team for coming out late for the 2nd half.
Go get them? Oh, no, that's not happening, mostly because I wouldn't know where they are or how many locked doors are between us.
I've been part of two games where a team was flagged (same team, unsurprisingly) only because they failed to show up at any time during the 3 minutes and only trotted back on field barely in time for the second half kickoff.
The halftime length is always part of the pregame discussion that the R+U have with the head coaches and the length of that time is based on their agreement. That's worked OK all year and based on our guidance from the MIAA is fine with the caveat that we must have a full 3 minutes at the end of the intermission with both teams present on the field.
If everybody is in agreement, I'm not going to be a stick in the mud and flag it up the chain of command or anything -- just saying that *by rule* that may not be a long enough halftime. I've heard tell of JV games in bad weather that have running clocks in the first quarter (by coach agreement, not automatic) where halftime was only 5 minutes... again not rule based, but everybody agreed and nobody is going to complain.
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We notify the teams at 5:00 left in the halftime. If they don’t show any signs of coming out, we start bugging them at 3:00. And 2:00. And 1:00. If they don’t show up by 0:00, they’ve got nobody but themselves to blame for the USC.
But we never start the 3:00 warmup until both teams are back, whenever that may be.
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If everybody is in agreement, I'm not going to be a stick in the mud and flag it up the chain of command or anything -- just saying that *by rule* that may not be a long enough halftime.
Just a reminder, when the MANDATORY 3 min "Warm Up" was added, the purpose was to give the team opportunity to "loosen" their players up before participating. How the teams elected to do so, was up to, and the responsibility of the team.
God forbid, a player gets hurt thereafter, and an Insurance Co. attorney is looking for somewhere to shift blame, 1st stop on that search might be, "Did the officials insure compliance with the MANDATORY 3 Min RULE.(NFHS Table 3-1) If so, the search should move to it's nest stop, if not you may be involved in a long, unpleasant ride.
Doesn't happen often, but the lawsuit that helped create the current "Restricted Area" rules, was prompted by a Disability claim lawsuit instituted by an insurance company regarding a disability claim by the coach who was injured in a sideline collision that forced his premature retirement. The crew of officials, included in the suit, were eventually released, after several YEARS of litigation.
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But we never start the 3:00 warmup until both teams are back, whenever that may be.
We also never start the 3:00 until both teams are back on the field. We do stop the 3:00 if both teams are done their warmups and are coming out onto the field for the 2nd half kickoff.
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We typically have a 20:00 half. I can’t remember not having a 20:00 half. When that 20 is gone we put 3:00 up and start it. If either team or neither team is has at least some players on the field or sideline, we throw a flag. FWIW, I’ve never had to throw a flag in 28 years. We also let the full 3:00 expire before we play.
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We also never start the 3:00 until both teams are back on the field. We do stop the 3:00 if both teams are done their warmups and are coming out onto the field for the 2nd half kickoff.
New case 3.1.1D states the warmup 3:00 should start when the allotted halftime ends. USC on head coach on team that doesn't have his team out.
Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger ;).
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New case 3.1.1D states the warmup 3:00 should start when the allotted halftime ends. USC on head coach on team that doesn't have his team out.
Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger ;).
Seems like the NFHS also has a patient "mother", and follows the same advise pattern; "Be nice (offer constructive suggestions), until it's time NOT to be nice (put her foot down, and remind everyone there's a consequence for not paying attention). Life has usually been better when listening to Mom.
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The state championships AKA Super Bowls are this Friday and Saturday at Gillette Stadium. Two games on Friday, six on Saturday.
To fit all of them in, they're playing 10-minute quarters. Also halftime will be 14 minutes, with no three-minute warmup period.
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14 minutes halftimes? Here in Texas, championships are played at Jerry's World, spread out over 4 days, 3 games a day, all televised with IR. Pretty sure they have 30 min halves too. That's crazy they try to cram in 6 in one day.
Just curious, but what's ballpark attendance numbers for those games?
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The state championships AKA Super Bowls are this Friday and Saturday at Gillette Stadium. Two games on Friday, six on Saturday.
To fit all of them in, they're playing 10-minute quarters. Also halftime will be 14 minutes, with no three-minute warmup period.
MIAA's written guidance package issued to officiating crews has halftime set at " … up to 15 minutes" plus the mandatory "3 minute warmup period". The games will be played with 10 minute periods. Schedule has 2 hour time slots per game with an extra 30 minutes between each pair of games to allow for any unexpected delays. Pregame warmups are done in the Patriot's practice "dome" adjacent to the stadium, and awards are given out in an off-field area while the next game is getting started.
A very tight schedule but it's been done pretty much this way for years and it works. In the past all games have been televised but we do not use IR. I believe that all 8 game will be televised this year as well.
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Is there a reason, my comment I have typed up, when I try to post it gives a 403 error? I can put other comments in, just not that particular one. edit: figured it out, a particular prescription drug name was the issue.
I had shoulder surgery the week of championship games last year, IR is a blessing and a curse as a spectator watching. Blessing because it allows us to get the calls right; curse because during some games, they would call down to the field to initiate a replay, it seemed, every other play. Made some of the games take FOREVER due to the number of, and length of replays. I think we timed one at over 6 minutes, that might have been through a tr^m^dol haze but I remember talking about it at the time to whoever was in the room, LOL. It was a momentum killer for sure.
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MIAA's written guidance package issued to officiating crews has halftime set at " … up to 15 minutes" plus the mandatory "3 minute warmup period". The games will be played with 10 minute periods. Schedule has 2 hour time slots per game with an extra 30 minutes between each pair of games to allow for any unexpected delays. Pregame warmups are done in the Patriot's practice "dome" adjacent to the stadium, and awards are given out in an off-field area while the next game is getting started.
A very tight schedule but it's been done pretty much this way for years and it works. In the past all games have been televised but we do not use IR. I believe that all 8 game will be televised this year as well.
The Herald reporter covering the MIAA breakfast tweeted 14 minutes and no 3-minute warmup, but perhaps he was wrong.
They also do the awards off the field, in a concourse area of one of the end zones.
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14 minutes halftimes? Here in Texas, championships are played at Jerry's World, spread out over 4 days, 3 games a day, all televised with IR. Pretty sure they have 30 min halves too. That's crazy they try to cram in 6 in one day.
Just curious, but what's ballpark attendance numbers for those games?
It varies. In the years I've been there, I've seen a mostly full lower bowl between the 20s on one sideline (the only section open) for some games and I've seen other games where it looked like there were more people on the field than in the stands.