After try, score may be 6-1

[bbeagle]

Well, in effect, A is still scoring when a safety takes place. They're just scoring for B. 

What would happen if the QB on the try for team A intentionally took the ball all the way back 98 yards to his own endzone, set the ball on the ground in the endzone, and Team A walked off the field, and Team B did the same?

Would this follow the Rule Fundamentals whereby a ball dead in A's endzone gives B a touchdown, or do we just ignore this 'fundamental', and give B a 1 point safety where the rulebook does not allow it?

[ECILLJ]

Beagle, you are still trying to catch the rabbit.   

If A walks off the field, I believe that would constitute a forfeiture of the game. B wins.

[bbeagle]

Beagle, you are still trying to catch the rabbit.   

If A walks off the field, I believe that would constitute a forfeiture of the game. B wins.

If A team walks off the field for a SINGLE play and then is ready to play the kickoff, this is a forfeit? Really?

I'm actually trying to understand why a safety can be awarded when B intercepts a LIVE ball in A's endzone, instead of B being awarded the 2 point touchdown. This is a similar place where the rules say absolutely NOTHING about B even getting a 1 point safety, but the case book says they do.

[ECILLJ]

Beagle, my apologies for a bad pass at humor. My interpretation of why this is a Safety is based on the following two rules. I hope this is helpful and I also hope we never see this play.

8.3.ART. 3 . . . During a try, A may score two points from what would be a
touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play
at other times during the game.

8.ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when: b. A player who is either in the field of play or in his end zone, forces a loose
ball from the field of play to or across his goal line by his kick, pass,
fumble, snap or by a new force to a grounded loose ball with his muff or
bat or illegal kick (when the penalty is declined), provided the ball becomes
dead there in his team’s possession (including when the ball is declared
dead with no player in possession), or the ball is out of bounds when it
becomes dead on or behind their goal line. This does not apply to a legal
Page 67 2011 NFHS Football Rules Rule 9-1
forward pass which becomes incomplete.

[bbeagle]

8.3.ART. 3 . . . During a try, A may score two points from what would be a
touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play
at other times during the game.

Safety by B is different from Safety by A.

A safety by B is when A fumbles the ball on the 3, B tries to recover, muffs the ball back 3 yards into B's endzone, then B jumps on it.

But a safety by A (98 yards the OTHER way) has NEVER been covered in the rule book.

[ECILLJ]

After further review of the rules, you have convinced me that you are correct.

My interpretation:
A can score 1 point on a Safety by B that is committed during a try and the only way that B can do this without having possession in the field of play and ending the try, would be to muff, bat or kick the ball into their own end zone and recover it in the end zone or by the ball being muffed, batted or kicked out of bounds through the sidelines or end lines of the end zone. B cannot score any points on a try by A, regardless of where the play ends.

[VALJ]

What would happen if the QB on the try for team A intentionally took the ball all the way back 98 yards to his own endzone, set the ball on the ground in the endzone, and Team A walked off the field, and Team B did the same?

Would this follow the Rule Fundamentals whereby a ball dead in A's endzone gives B a touchdown, or do we just ignore this 'fundamental', and give B a 1 point safety where the rulebook does not allow it?

What would happen if that occured on a regular scrimmage down? 

The down has ended with A in possession of the ball in their own end zone, and A responsible for putting it there.  Sounds like a safety to me.

Edit: I see the verbiage quoted above about A getting 1 point for safety on B.  Does B get two points in a situation like this, then?

[bbeagle]

The down has ended with A in possession of the ball in their own end zone, and A responsible for putting it there.  Sounds like a safety to me.

It's a touchdown for B according to the Football Fundamentals (near page 80 of the rule book). Any live ball declared dead in the the opponent's endzone with no team possession, is a touchdown for the opponent.

[VALJ]

It's a touchdown for B according to the Football Fundamentals (near page 80 of the rule book). Any live ball declared dead in the the opponent's endzone with no team possession, is a touchdown for the opponent.

Which fundamental is that?  FUND I-8 says that possession of a live ball in the opponent's EZ is a TD, but B doesn't have possession.  The ball is still by definition in A's team possession (FUND I-3).

[ECILLJ]

It's a touchdown for B according to the Football Fundamentals (near page 80 of the rule book). Any live ball declared dead in the the opponent's endzone with no team possession, is a touchdown for the opponent.

Beagle, I am not finding this on page 80. You may want to take another gander at p. 80.

I. POSSESSION
1. A live ball is always in possession of a team.
2. A live ball is in player possession or is loose.
3. A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession.
4. A player in possession of a live ball is a runner.
5. A player cannot fumble before gaining possession.
6. No foul causes loss of the ball.
7. After a distance penalty, the ball belongs to the team which was in possession at the time of the foul
according to applicable rules. Team possession may then change if a new series is awarded.
8. Possession of a live ball in the opponent’s end zone is always a touchdown.

[mbyron]

It's a touchdown for B according to the Football Fundamentals (near page 80 of the rule book). Any live ball declared dead in the the opponent's endzone with no team possession, is a touchdown for the opponent.

Both of these statements are false, the first because VALJ was talking about A possessing the ball, and the second because 8-2-1c does not apply to "any live ball."

[bama_stripes]

It's a touchdown for B according to the Football Fundamentals (near page 80 of the rule book). Any live ball declared dead in the the opponent's endzone with no team possession, is a touchdown for the opponent.

Huh?  A live ball is always in team possession, even if it's loose.

[mbyron]

Huh?  A live ball is always in team possession, even if it's loose.

He's misreading 8-2-1c, which I've personally never seen applied (correctly or incorrectly):

"It is a touchdown when a backward pass or fumble is declared dead in the
end zone of the opponent of the player who threw the backward pass or
fumbled while no player is in possession (other than because of an inadvertent
whistle)."

[williamhowe]

At the State rules interpretation meeting in Ohio we were told that only A can score on a try.

[SWilliams]

A scrambles during a 2 point conversion, but fumbles in the field of play.  B in an attempt to gain possession knocks the ball (new force) into the endzone where B eventually gains possession, or the ball goes out of bounds.  B is responsible for the ball being in their own endzone.

I would have a safety.  Score 1 point for the defense?

[mbyron]

A scrambles during a 2 point conversion, but fumbles in the field of play.  B in an attempt to gain possession knocks the ball (new force) into the endzone where B eventually gains possession, or the ball goes out of bounds.  B is responsible for the ball being in their own endzone.

I would have a safety.  Score 1 point for the defense?

Score 1 point for A, who will still kick off. (Good bar bet: when can A score a safety and STILL have to free kick?)

[bbeagle]

Score 1 point for A, who will still kick off. (Good bar bet: when can A score a safety and STILL have to free kick?)

Better bar bet would be to prove to someone that a non-CFL football game can end with a score of like 17-1. The rule books do not say that any team can ever score 1 point by itself ever, but that's what the case book says.

[maybrefguy]

The score cannot be 17-1, can it?  As I understand it, the team attempting the try gets the 1 point safety.

[mbyron]

The score cannot be 17-1, can it?  As I understand it, the team attempting the try gets the 1 point safety.

If B forces the ball into B's EZ during A's try and the ball then becomes dead, then A scores 1 point.

If A forces the ball into A's EZ during A's try and the ball then becomes dead, then B scores 1 point. 8.3.3B

Note that this case play does NOT involve B gaining possession during the down. A retreats into their own EZ and the runner is tackled there.

[maybrefguy]

Thanks.  Hadn't thought about that.

[ECILLJ]

If B forces the ball into B's EZ during A's try and the ball then becomes dead, then A scores 1 point.

If A forces the ball into A's EZ during A's try and the ball then becomes dead, then B scores 1 point. 8.3.3B

Note that this case play does NOT involve B gaining possession during the down. A retreats into their own EZ and the runner is tackled there.

B cannot score one point on a try, I thought we already established this. Only A can score on the try.

8.3 ART. 3 . . . During a try, A may score two points from what would be a
touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play
at other times during the game.

[maybrefguy]

So ECILLJ - what happens when the ball becomes dead in A's EZ?

[ECILLJ]

The try was not successful. No points.

[maybrefguy]

I found this in the case book.

*8.3.3 SITUATION A:

During a try, a fumble by A1 is nearly at rest on the 3-yard line when a muff by B1 is judged to be a new force causing the ball to go into B's end zone where B2 recovers and:

(a) downs the ball in the end zone; or
(b) advances to his 10-yard line.

RULING: The try ends and the ball becomes dead when B2 recovers. In any ordinary down, such a dead ball in the end zone would be a ­safety, therefore, one point is scored for A in both (a) and (b).  (4-2-2i; 8-1; 8-5-2b)

*8.3.3 SITUATION B:

During a non-kick try, A1 fumbles the ball, and in scrambling to recover the ball and avoid defenders, retreats into his own end zone where he is tackled.

RULING: This is a one-point safety where B is credited with a point, and A must then free-kick as normal. This is the only means of B scoring points on a try.

Apparently, B gets a point if ball is dead in A's EZ.

[bbeagle]

B cannot score one point on a try, I thought we already established this. Only A can score on the try.

Yes, B can score 1 point on a try. Read case book play 8.3.3. I posted this in my VERY FIRST POST on this thread.

I'm simply trying to find the logic in this. The Rule book doesn't say that B can. But the Case Book says B can.