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41

National Federation Discussion / Re: Forward Fumble Definition

« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on July 01, 2025, 09:38:51 AM »

Although 4-3-1 Exception references the term "forward fumble", it isn't defined in the rules. I see two possible definitions:

(1) The ball goes out of bounds beyond the spot of the fumble. Redding supports this definition.

(2) The initial direction of the fumble when the runner loses possession is toward the opponent's goal line.

A case in point and likely scenario would be if the runner fumbles towards his own goal line but the ball goes out of bounds beyond the spot of the fumble.

Not sure what you asking here?  Forward is always in the direction the team is headed toward the opponents EZ.  Backward is the opposite way.  The direction of any fumble in my mind is one or the other (forward/backward).  I don't see any need for further definition.

42

NCAA Discussion / Re: Substitution Rule, AR, and mechanics

« Last post by ElvisLives on July 01, 2025, 08:51:49 AM »

Maybe i am missing something but this seems set to me. The AR says to penalize team A for a delay of game and 5 yards. There is no mention of a UNS. So every infraction is a DOG with no escalation to a UNS. This seems to make it consistent and easier to enforce. Team A doesn't get a freebie and there is no need to worry about a 15 yard penalty because the center or QB didn't see the U coming in to hold the snap. The penalty and enforcement are the same every time. What am i missing?

You’re missing the fact that the RULE - not the AR - did not change at all, and still specifies the requirement for the play clock to expire, and, if Team A is the cause for the delay, then they get a DOG penalty, and the head coach of the offending team still gets a warning that the next incident will result in a UNS foul. The AR is in conflict with the RULE, and 2-1-a tells us that the RULE takes priority over the AR, if they are in conflict.

What started this is that I was CC’d on an unofficial study document that used the expression “the snap is imminent” with regard to when to call the DOG foul. Neither the RULE nor the AR make any reference to the snap being imminent, and in fact, for a foul, they both still require the ball to be snapped before the covering official can get in place to prevent the snap.

If the intent is to charge Team A with a DOG in every incidence, the rules bureaucracy simply has failed, yet again, to coordinate the RULE and the AR thoroughly. Even the previous AR did not match the RULE. The previous AR required a snap to occur, then, on the first incident, action is stopped, NO FOUL was to be called (which did not match the RULE); the ball was re-spotted, and the offending team was warned that the next incident would be a UNS, and the down continued.

If the rules committee wants a DOG on every incident, the RULE needs to be changed. If they want the play clock to be interrupted when the snap is imminent, the RULE and the AR, both, need to be changed.

43

National Federation Discussion / Forward Fumble Definition

« Last post by MBK on July 01, 2025, 08:43:13 AM »

Although 4-3-1 Exception references the term "forward fumble", it isn't defined in the rules. I see two possible definitions:

(1) The ball goes out of bounds beyond the spot of the fumble. Redding supports this definition.

(2) The initial direction of the fumble when the runner loses possession is toward the opponent's goal line.

A case in point and likely scenario would be if the runner fumbles towards his own goal line but the ball goes out of bounds beyond the spot of the fumble.

44

NCAA Discussion / Re: Substitution Rule, AR, and mechanics

« Last post by FWREF on July 01, 2025, 07:03:24 AM »

Maybe i am missing something but this seems set to me. The AR says to penalize team A for a delay of game and 5 yards. There is no mention of a UNS. So every infraction is a DOG with no escalation to a UNS. This seems to make it consistent and easier to enforce. Team A doesn't get a freebie and there is no need to worry about a 15 yard penalty because the center or QB didn't see the U coming in to hold the snap. The penalty and enforcement are the same every time. What am i missing? 

45

National Federation Discussion / Re: Injured Player - Visible Blood

« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on July 01, 2025, 06:55:31 AM »

Are you really that quick in spotting the ball AND informing the referee AND the referee checking that all officials are ready in five seconds from the end of the previous down? I'd say that in the best circumstances it takes at least 15 seconds, thus not taking any time from the offense.

Got to agree with Kalle here.  This is a non-issue that I have never seen (in 28 years), and don't expect to ever see in the future.  In fact, you'd be hard pressed to get this all done in 15 seconds, never mind 5.

46

NCAA Discussion / Re: Substitution Rule, AR, and mechanics

« Last post by blindtxzebra on June 30, 2025, 09:03:39 PM »

Great question

47

National Federation Discussion / Re: 10-4-4a

« Last post by sczeebra on June 30, 2025, 08:15:02 PM »

After reading 10-4 forwards and backwards and comparing to the 2022 version (pre-blip), I think I've found the problem.

10-4-2b states that the basic spot is the previous spot for a foul that occurs behind the line of scrimmage on a loose ball play. Previously (2022), the phrasing did not include "behind the line of scrimmage", it covered any foul during a loose ball play. With this edit, there is *technically* no specific rule coverage for determining the basic spot on a foul beyond the line of scrimmage during a loose ball play.

Since your scenarios involve illegal kicks/bats beyond the line of scrimmage during a loose ball play, only 10-4-4a is relevant and *by rule* it's a spot foul enforcement only, which invokes the question of whose ball is it? If R never possessed the kick, then the ball is still in Team K's possession, and Team R is only awarded the ball after it becomes dead not in player possession (or out of bounds, touched by R). So the only conclusion in scenario 1 is that it's A's ball at the time of the foul, therefore A retains possession, enforced from the spot of the illegal bat to *replay the free kick*.

That's absurd. If we're replaying the free kick, we have to have previous spot enforcement regardless of 10-4-4a (illegally) kicking in.

In the second scenario, an illegal bat or kick doesn't change the status of the ball -- it's still a legal free kick, that has now gone out of bounds untouched by R. I propose that 6-1-9 supersedes the action that caused the ball to go out of bounds, and allow the standard options for penalizing the free kick out of bounds and ignore the fact that it was an illegal bat.

Just to put a fine point on it, with the alteration of 10-4-2b to only apply to foul behind the line of scrimmage, there is no rule that determines the basic spot for pass interference anymore.

The TABLE 7-5 on page 67 gives us the enforcement spot for pass interference.

48

NCAA Discussion / Substitution Rule, AR, and mechanics

« Last post by ElvisLives on June 30, 2025, 04:21:59 PM »

3-5-2-e and AR 3-5-2V still don’t align. For 2024 (and before), the RULE said to not allow Team A to snap the ball, and one team or the other would be charged with a DOG if the play clock expired. The RULE made no mention of what to do if Team A managed to snap the ball before Team B had completed its substitutions. However, the AR directed us to attempt to prevent Team A from snapping the ball, but, if they did, to stop the action, and allow Team B to complete their substitutions. This was “No Foul,” but Team A would be warned that the next such incident would be a UNS foul. (I actually had to enforce this just this way in a game at Texas Tech back in 2011.)

For 2025, the RULE reads exactly the same. DOG (for one team or the other) if the play clock expires, but no mention of what to do if Team A manages to snap the ball. The requirement to notify the team that the next incident would be a UNS foul is still there. However, the AR has been edited to delete the notification to Team A that the next incident would result in a UNS foul. That certainly makes it sound like all such actions are DOGs, but that does not align with the rule.

Sadly, this is typical for the current rule bureaucracy. They just don’t vet the rules and AR’s thoroughly against themselves, and against other rules. If 2-1-a can be believed, the rule should govern, which makes the AR incorrect.

If anybody has some authoritative information on why the AR was edited, please share. (This smacks of an Israel/Iran thing - they don't know what the ...  )

49

National Federation Discussion / Re: 10-4-4a

« Last post by ncwingman on June 30, 2025, 03:34:24 PM »

Thank you for the reply. 

Another play example:

K free kick from the K 30-yard line. The kick is almost at rest at the R 20-yard line near the sideline.

1.  R23 illegally bats the ball at the R 20-yard line and the ball goes OOB at the R 19-yard line.  K accepts the penalty.  What is the next play?  This is a loose ball play - shouldn't there be a re-kick from the K 40-yard line?

2.  K56 illegally bats the ball at the R 20-yard line and the ball goes OOB at the R 19-yard line.  R accepts the penalty.  What is the next play?  This is a loose ball play - shouldn't there be options?
    i.  re-kick from the K 20-yard line.
   ii.  R's ball 1st and 10 at the R 30-yard line. (per 10-4-2 EXCEPTION)
  iii.  R's ball 1st and 10 at the R 45-yard line. (per 10-5-1a and 6-1-9)

After reading 10-4 forwards and backwards and comparing to the 2022 version (pre-blip), I think I've found the problem.

10-4-2b states that the basic spot is the previous spot for a foul that occurs behind the line of scrimmage on a loose ball play. Previously (2022), the phrasing did not include "behind the line of scrimmage", it covered any foul during a loose ball play. With this edit, there is *technically* no specific rule coverage for determining the basic spot on a foul beyond the line of scrimmage during a loose ball play.

Since your scenarios involve illegal kicks/bats beyond the line of scrimmage during a loose ball play, only 10-4-4a is relevant and *by rule* it's a spot foul enforcement only, which invokes the question of whose ball is it? If R never possessed the kick, then the ball is still in Team K's possession, and Team R is only awarded the ball after it becomes dead not in player possession (or out of bounds, touched by R). So the only conclusion in scenario 1 is that it's A's ball at the time of the foul, therefore A retains possession, enforced from the spot of the illegal bat to *replay the free kick*.

That's absurd. If we're replaying the free kick, we have to have previous spot enforcement regardless of 10-4-4a (illegally) kicking in.

In the second scenario, an illegal bat or kick doesn't change the status of the ball -- it's still a legal free kick, that has now gone out of bounds untouched by R. I propose that 6-1-9 supersedes the action that caused the ball to go out of bounds, and allow the standard options for penalizing the free kick out of bounds and ignore the fact that it was an illegal bat.

Just to put a fine point on it, with the alteration of 10-4-2b to only apply to foul behind the line of scrimmage, there is no rule that determines the basic spot for pass interference anymore.

50

National Federation Discussion / Re: Injured Player - Visible Blood

« Last post by Kalle on June 30, 2025, 03:02:37 PM »

Runner dives up the middle, linebacker dives in, stuffs the charge but the runner's helmet comes off in the contact. Nothing illegal, just the helmet comes off. The player knows immediately he has to sit out a play, picks up his helmet and immediately runs off the field. We kill the clock for the helmet, send him off, which takes 5 seconds and restart the clocks. By rule, the play clock is now 25 seconds instead of 40. However, since the player leaving took minimal time, the offense now has less time to run the next play. They should have 35 seconds left, but instead they have 25 on the restart.

Are you really that quick in spotting the ball AND informing the referee AND the referee checking that all officials are ready in five seconds from the end of the previous down? I'd say that in the best circumstances it takes at least 15 seconds, thus not taking any time from the offense.