Author Topic: Oregon/OSU end of game  (Read 3237 times)

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Offline dammitbobby

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Oregon/OSU end of game
« on: October 13, 2024, 11:12:52 AM »
 https://x.com/SharpFootball/status/1845320775525429709

I was too busy yelling at my TV during the LSU game, so wasn't watching this one. This is an interesting sequence of events, and raises a good point - is there a way to stop this from happening? Just considered legitimate tactics in the game, or is there a way the advantage gained could be negated via penalty or adding time back, even?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2024, 09:07:56 PM »
Do what the crew did.  Penalize the ILS.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2024, 09:01:38 AM »
There is support for converting to UNS and restoring time. But. BUT. You better be 1000% sure that the ILS was intentional to waste time. Like you directly hear the coach intentionally telling the team to keep too many players on the field. If there is ANY doubt as to it just being a normal foul from miscommunication or confusion or something, you better leave it as ILS and enforce the yardage and any clock options as such.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2024, 09:41:06 AM »
There is support for converting to UNS and restoring time. But. BUT. You better be 1000% sure that the ILS was intentional to waste time. Like you directly hear the coach intentionally telling the team to keep too many players on the field. If there is ANY doubt as to it just being a normal foul from miscommunication or confusion or something, you better leave it as ILS and enforce the yardage and any clock options as such.

Oh for sure - for practicality, I would do exactly that.  Was just contemplating whether this will become a tactic we see more and more of in an effort to game the clock, and if we might eventually see a rule change arise from it, should it become a more regular occurrence.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2024, 10:10:32 AM »
See A.R.'s 9-2-3-II and III. Unsportsmanlike conduct on the 12th player. 15 yards and automatic 1st down. Restore time to the time at the snap, start the clock on the snap. If the team B tries this the second time, award a touchdown to team A. But like LZ said, you better be real sure about what happened.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2024, 10:51:51 AM »
Yeah, some position coach aspiring to become a DC (or HC) will realize that, even with a 5-yard penalty, Team A can't kick a field goal that long. So, they have nothing to lose by putting 12, 13 players on the field to cover receivers. He'll tell his DC, "Put more players out there - it's only a 5-yard penalty, but we'll stop the pass, and they'll lose time."
Team A loses 5 to 7 seconds on the clock, and only get 5 yards closer. Team B will make that trade.

As the AR's to which Kalle points us indicate, there is indirect support, by precedent, for putting time back on the clock in very egregious circumstances. But, to echo what the others have said, you'd better be 100% sure, and be able to prove it. In the specific Oregon/OSU case, I don't see doing anything different than what was done.
But, when somebody loses a high profile game because Team B puts 12, 13 players on the field and they are able to prevent a team from scoring while burning a significant amount off the clock, we'll get either a rule change/editorial change, or an AR that will address these situations. Was that game high profile enough? Maybe. We'll see.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2024, 11:12:51 AM »
With the prevalence of various video cameras I'm pretty sure that there is some video on the coaches at the time the 12th player enters the field, so hopefully the conference takes any action warranted (this could have been an honest counting mistake).

Offline Imperial Stout

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2024, 01:15:49 PM »
An event like this happened in a Super Bowl.  The NFL then decided on a rule change to have the play shut down at the snap if there are 12 men in formation by the defense. 

But overall, it is hard to legislate integrity.


Online ElvisLives

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2024, 01:30:06 PM »
An event like this happened in a Super Bowl.  The NFL then decided on a rule change to have the play shut down at the snap if there are 12 men in formation by the defense. 

But overall, it is hard to legislate integrity.

For a while, NCAA also had us stop the action at the snap and penalize defensive ILS as a dead-ball foul, but they went back to that being a live-ball some years back. Dead-ball foul and start the game clock on the snap would go a long way toward stopping these tactics. Especially if they went back to too many on the field being 15 yards. But, then, they’d have to make offensive ILS 15 yards, too, and I doubt they’d ever go back to that.

Offline zebrastripes

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2024, 07:47:09 PM »
Seems like a pretty simple fix for this would be (1) shutting this play down as a dead ball foul like it would be for Team A (replaced player not leaving the field within three seconds), or (2) adding illegal participation and a 15-yard penalty for this situation. Both of which are HS rules.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2024, 10:15:37 PM »
Seems like a pretty simple fix for this would be (1) shutting this play down as a dead ball foul like it would be for Team A (replaced player not leaving the field within three seconds), or (2) adding illegal participation and a 15-yard penalty for this situation. Both of which are HS rules.

Both of which used to be NCAA rules at different times in the past.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2024, 11:18:50 PM »
In high school it is a practice to shut this down prior to the snap and mark off 5 yards for illegal substitution but if the snap goes off with 12 on one side that is a 15 yard illegal participation penalty.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2024, 11:29:58 PM »
Turns out Oregon drew the foul intentionally:

https://apple.news/ALXxbrnDhSOW7hZIDje8Ttg

Offline Kalle

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2024, 06:23:52 AM »
Turns out Oregon drew the foul intentionally:

https://apple.news/ALXxbrnDhSOW7hZIDje8Ttg

Umm, a coach publicly flouting the first line of coaching ethics in the rules? I really hope the conference takes action on this.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2024, 03:52:05 PM »
Since the NCAA is already looking at this situation, I can see a mid-course correction made this season. The easiest fix is to return to this to being a dead-ball foul. Already, inside two-minutes in the 2nd/4th periods, the offended team can have the game clock start on the snap, if it would have started on the "ready" otherwise. So, those two things go a long way toward stopping this garbage.
But, as in Oregon's case, by placing extra people in the game, they may be able to stop a big gain pass play with the extra people. Even if they get a 5-yard penalty, that may be worth keeping Team A out of field goal range, especially with the likelihood of only one more down to play (due to time).

As much as I dislike adding more and more rules, these situations, i.e., inside 2-minutes in the 2nd/4th periods, might justify a 15-yard penalty. We'd have to remember the distance difference, but we can do that. A 15-yard penalty with the clock starting on the snap just might dissuade Team B from deliberately committing these fouls.

 

Offline Grant - AR

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2024, 01:31:05 PM »
Aaaaaannnd, a play situations bulletin just came out to address this issue:

The new interpretation is:
After the Two-Minute Timeout in either half, if the defense commits a substitution foul and 12
or more players are on the field and participate in a down, officials will penalize the defense
for the foul and at the option of the offended team, reset the game clock back to the time
displayed at the snap. The game clock will then restart on the next snap. If the 12th defender
was attempting to exit but was still on the field at the snap and had no influence on the play,
then the normal substitution penalty would be enforced with no clock adjustment.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2024, 01:42:31 PM »
Aaaaaannnd, a play situations bulletin just came out to address this issue:

The new interpretation is:
After the Two-Minute Timeout in either half, if the defense commits a substitution foul and 12
or more players are on the field and participate in a down, officials will penalize the defense
for the foul and at the option of the offended team, reset the game clock back to the time
displayed at the snap. The game clock will then restart on the next snap. If the 12th defender
was attempting to exit but was still on the field at the snap and had no influence on the play,
then the normal substitution penalty would be enforced with no clock adjustment.

OK, so let's put more judgment on the game officials. Ah, well. This one isn't that bad. We oughta be able to tell if the 12th guy was trying to get off and didn't affect any Team A player.

The time thing is way more difficult. Those of us without replay are gonna be guessing about the time on the clock at the snap. That will be a problem.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2024, 03:02:23 PM »
Tried to upload the bulletin, but got a message that the upload area was full. So, here it is - copied and pasted.
Note that Team A does not have to accept the distance penalty to accept the clock reset. Their option for both.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Half / End of Game Team B Substitution Fouls – Rule 3-5-3-b
Questions have been raised concerning end of half / end of game situations when the defense has
more than 11 players participate in a down. There are scenarios where the defense could potentially
gain a clock advantage by having more than 11 players on the field actively participating in a
play. This action violates a guiding principle in our football playing rules, that there should be
no profit when a team fouls.

Leveraging off a current Approved Ruling (AR 9-2-3 II, included at the bottom of this document), we
are introducing a new play interpretation dealing with the defense playing with more than 11
players on the field in late in the half / late in the game situations. The goal of this in season
interpretation is to eliminate the clock advantage for committing a substitution foul and take away
any gain for the defense if they violate the substitution rule.
The new interpretation is:
After the Two-Minute Timeout in either half, if the defense commits a substitution foul and 12 or
more players are on the field and participate in a down, officials will penalize the defense for
the foul and at the option of the offended team, reset the game clock back to the time displayed at
the snap. The game clock will then restart on the next snap. If the 12th defender was attempting to
exit but was still on the field at the snap and had no influence on the play, then the normal
substitution penalty would be enforced with no clock adjustment.

Play #1: 1/10 @ B-25. Team A snaps the ball with 12 seconds remaining on the game clock in the 4th
quarter. QB A12 can find no receiver open, scrambles outside the tackle box and throws the ball
away beyond the neutral zone and the play ends with 6 seconds remaining. The defense participated
with 12 players on the field.
RULING: Foul by Team B for a substitution infraction. The 5-yard penalty will be enforced from the
previous spot. At the option of Team A, the game clock will be reset to 0:12 and will start on the
snap.


Play #2: 1/10 @ B-25. Team A snaps the ball with 12 seconds remaining on the game clock in the 4th
quarter. QB A12 can find no receiver open, scrambles outside the tackle box and throws the ball
away beyond the neutral zone and the play ends with 6 seconds remaining. The defense had 12 players
on the field at the snap but B21 was hustling to get off the field and the ball was snapped just
before B21 exited the field.
RULING: Foul by Team B for a substitution infraction. The 5-yard penalty will be enforced from the
previous spot. If B21 had no influence on the play, there would be no clock adjustment.


Play #3: 1/10 @ B-25. Team A snaps the ball with 12 seconds remaining on the game clock in the 4th
quarter. QB A12 can find no receiver open, scrambles outside the tackle box and runs for 10 yards
and is downed inbounds and the clock is stopped with 6 seconds remaining. The defense participated
with 12 players on the field.
RULING: Foul by Team B for a substitution infraction. There is no requirement to accept the penalty
to have the clock reset. The offense may decline the 5-yard penalty and keep the option to reset
the game clock to 0:12 and have the game clock start on the next snap.


Approved Ruling 9-2-3 II
Team A, trailing by nine points, has 1st-and-10 on the B-22 with 0:35 showing on the game clock. At
the snap, B21, B40 and B44 blatantly
hold, wrapping both arms around Team A’s wideouts and take them to the ground. Quarterback A12 has
no receiver in the route, scrambles and then legally throws the ball away. After the play, the game
clock reads 0:26. The back judge, field judge and side judge have a flag down for Team B holding on
each of their keys.
RULING: This is a blatant and obvious unfair act designed to take time off the clock. The referee
will convert the holding
fouls to an unsportsmanlike conduct fouls. Penalize half the distance to the goal. Team A will have
1st and 10 at the B-11. The game clock is reset to 0:35 and starts on the next snap. B21, B40 and
B44 each have one unsportsmanlike foul counter.

Steve Shaw
CFO National Coordinator of Football Officials Secretary-Rules Editor, NCAA Football Rules
Committee
October 2024

Offline Grant - AR

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2024, 03:22:12 PM »
Tried to upload the bulletin, but got a message that the upload area was full. So, here it is - copied and pasted.
Note that Team A does not have to accept the distance penalty to accept the clock reset. Their option for both.


I just ran a clean up on the attachments folder.  Hopefully that freed up some space if you want to try to upload it again.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2024, 03:23:15 PM »
So as I read it, time being added back only applies if A accepts the penalty, correct?  So if A runs a play with 9 seconds left from the B30, B has 12 on the field, A still manages to get to the 5 yard line with 4 seconds left, they would have to give up the yardage gained to have time restored?

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2024, 03:35:45 PM »
Reread play #3. Team A can decline the penalty and still retain the clock option. This is in line with 3-4-3 after the two minute timeout as well. It is not the same as 3-4-4 for 10 second runoffs where the offended team must accept the penalty to have the runoff.

As to judgement, Elvis, I actually think this actually reduces our use of judgement, or at least lets us judge something that’s easier to discern. We don’t have to worry about if the team is doing this on purpose or try to figure out what the coach is thinking. All we have to rule on is whether that player is attempting to leave the field or not and whether his being on the field affected Team A. In my opinion those are much easier things to rule on.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2024, 04:20:38 PM »
Yeah I missed that initially, thanks.

Offline Etref

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2024, 06:24:43 PM »

I just ran a clean up on the attachments folder.  Hopefully that freed up some space if you want to try to upload it again.

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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2024, 11:22:24 AM »
At the end of the first half in the SEC Championship game, it was interesting to see a similar situation come into play - can't remember who had the ball, but A was outside FG range, and B had two consecutive DOF fouls, which A reacting by throwing two deep balls (the typical response). There was less than 10 seconds left, and A went for the free deep ball, instead of sticking to the original playcall which ideally would have been a pass play that netted them 10-15 yards and put them on the edge of FG range. A had to throw for a TD for the last play instead of the field goal, because not enough time to run a shorter play and then run FG unit out.... B benefitted from their fouls by keeping them out of FG range and making them throw deep (although technically they didn't make them do it, I guess.) But B definitely benefitted more than A did on those two fouls. I am sure NCAA is aware of what happened and hopefully will be part of the offseason conversation around this midseason rule change... As Elvis pointed out, simply changing any Team B fouls at the snap to dead ball fouls would eliminate the issue. As it is now, for ILS fouls, since we can add time back, A is given the benefit of the free play, or the benefit of the penalty yardage with time restored, whichever is more beneficial... would like to see this with DOF fouls as well. 

Just my thoughts

Offline Imperial Stout

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Re: Oregon/OSU end of game
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2024, 09:31:10 PM »
At the end of the first half in the SEC Championship game, it was interesting to see a similar situation come into play - can't remember who had the ball, but A was outside FG range, and B had two consecutive DOF fouls, which A reacting by throwing two deep balls (the typical response). There was less than 10 seconds left, and A went for the free deep ball, instead of sticking to the original playcall which ideally would have been a pass play that netted them 10-15 yards and put them on the edge of FG range. A had to throw for a TD for the last play instead of the field goal, because not enough time to run a shorter play and then run FG unit out.... B benefitted from their fouls by keeping them out of FG range and making them throw deep (although technically they didn't make them do it, I guess.) But B definitely benefitted more than A did on those two fouls. I am sure NCAA is aware of what happened and hopefully will be part of the offseason conversation around this midseason rule change... As Elvis pointed out, simply changing any Team B fouls at the snap to dead ball fouls would eliminate the issue. As it is now, for ILS fouls, since we can add time back, A is given the benefit of the free play, or the benefit of the penalty yardage with time restored, whichever is more beneficial... would like to see this with DOF fouls as well. 

Just my thoughts

That stuck out at me as well as a very fortunate foul at that point in the game. The assumption is any injury stopping the clock is deliberate under two minutes and thus providing the option of a Zap-10. I'd have to think similar logic would need to apply to at least a certain category of fouls by Team B, and provide the option of restorig the clock.