Author Topic: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?  (Read 2823 times)

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Online Ralph Damren

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2024, 10:28:29 AM »
Alabama tried this one year for the state championship games.  During the 7 games, there were only 3-4 times total that they used him.  I guess the expense wasn’t worth the added value.
Not professing to be an expert, but several years ago I was up in the nice warm pressbox watching a state championship game with the state association guys. A crew from A's home radio station were seated next to us....

SCENE : A's ball, 1/G @ B'3. A1 fumbles, ball bouncing toward B'5 when A2 trys to scoop it up but muffs into B's endzone. B1 recovers ball in endzone.....

ACT I :  z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ huddle and rule touchback.

ACT II :  :!# :!# radio crew goes wild  :puke: :puke: ,"THEY SCREWED US  >:( >:( THAT SHOULD BE A SAFETY  hEaDbAnG "

ACT III : An association guy tells 'em that I'm the 'rules guy'  8].

ACT IV : A mic is shoved in front of my face  :o.

ACT V: I try to explain ," The officials needed to decide who caused the ball to go in the endzone  ^talk. It was caused by A2 muffing the ball, so it wasn't B's fault that the balll got there. That made it a touchback...."

ACT VI : A radio guy quickly responded ,"SO THERE YOU HAVE IT , WE GOT SCREWED BY A LOUSEY RULE  pi1eOn !"

...AND THE BAND PLAYED ON    tR:oLl




Online GoodScout

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2024, 08:47:24 AM »
As president of our state association, I made myself available in the press box for our state championship games this year to answer/explain any rulings on the field. Sat there all day. They didn’t go to me once.
Only asked for the roster of officials at the start of each game.
They don’t want to understand the rules.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2024, 10:39:39 AM »
Don't think a rule change is required for players laying on top of another player - just good officiating.

Just tell him to get up. If he doesn't, flag him for UNR and be done with it.

The other option is simply to modify Rule 2's definition for Holding to include such action, and then bang them for 10 yards. Have a 60-yard touchdown called back once or twice for such holding, and I guarantee it will stop.
Excellent "common sense/practical" approach. For those looking for a more specific solution, they might consider the practical value, and review the job description of a "Pettifogger".

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2024, 07:55:29 AM »
One more that came to mind:

No numbering requirement on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down when it’s obvious that a kick will be attempted.

This came to mind while watching a playoff game from our state this year that went into OT.  The team that went on offense second opted to kick a game-winning FG on 2nd down.  They used their regular FG team which didn’t include 5 linemen numbered 50-79.  Fortunately (IMO) the crew “missed” this formation error.

Most of us remember the reason for this rule (the “offense that shall not be named”), and it’s done what was intended in that respect.  But it was never intended to prohibit the situation above.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2024, 08:54:17 AM »
ACT VI : A radio guy quickly responded ,"SO THERE YOU HAVE IT , WE GOT SCREWED BY A LOUSEY RULE  pi1eOn !"[/color][/size][/font][/b]

That's just plain ignorance of the rules. Assuming it was obvious that B never even touched the ball until it was in the end zone, there's no code where that could possibly be a safety.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2024, 09:01:18 AM »
One more that came to mind:

No numbering requirement on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down when it’s obvious that a kick will be attempted.

This came to mind while watching a playoff game from our state this year that went into OT.  The team that went on offense second opted to kick a game-winning FG on 2nd down.  They used their regular FG team which didn’t include 5 linemen numbered 50-79.  Fortunately (IMO) the crew “missed” this formation error.

Most of us remember the reason for this rule (the “offense that shall not be named”), and it’s done what was intended in that respect.  But it was never intended to prohibit the situation above.

This got me thinking (a dangerous past time, I know). The numbering exception kicks in when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage kick formation, but there's no requirement that they remain in that formation or snap the ball in that formation.

In theory, and this is kind of silly, A's snapper could wear 22 the whole game as long as every play starts with the QB being set 10 yards behind the LOS before shifting into a more normal shotgun/under center formation. With the trend of offenses lining up, calling a few signals, then looking to the sideline to see what the play is, it wouldn't be completely absurd.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2024, 09:45:32 AM »
In 2009, to 'clarify' (do away with Alpha XI) scrimmage kick formation, the current rule evolved. I proposed the NCAA version of : "When a scrimmage kick is apparent" or something there such. Three other proposals in to 'clarify' but I guess mine was just too simpistic  :(. I fully agree that our current rule can become confusing when a team is trying a field goal on less than 4th down.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2025, 12:57:58 PM by Ralph Damren »

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2024, 10:36:29 AM »
Why not simply allow the Team A coach to state that they will be kicking, regardless of the down and that locks them into a kicking formation with the requisite numbering exception(s)?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline lawdog

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2024, 04:23:05 PM »


OR LESS!!!  I could suggest a few they stuck us with that we could dump back out!!

Offline bossman72

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2024, 09:14:55 AM »
Why not simply allow the Team A coach to state that they will be kicking, regardless of the down and that locks them into a kicking formation with the requisite numbering exception(s)?

Ok, but what if they don't kick?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2024, 10:19:00 AM »
Ok, but what if they don't kick?

That's what we have in NCAA, and they don't have to kick. But, once the SKF is established, numbering exceptions are all - and always - ineligible - just as though they are wearing numbers 50-79. We only need to know the eligible folks at the moment the SKF is established - the two ends wearing eligible numbers, and any backs wearing eligible numbers. Wings can get their end and nearest back. R can get the holder and kicker. When the exception(s) is(are) declared, they are locked into being on the line and between the ends at the snap. They can't become an end, or a back, regardless of what shifting they do, or what final formation they assume. If an 'exception' moves to an end or back position, and is there at the snap, you'll at least have an illegal formation foul. If anybody other than the 6 possible eligibles touches a legal forward pass (LFP) before it is touched by B, or are downfield (by whatever criteria you use) before a LFP that crosses the NZ is thrown, you've got a foul. If they shift out of the SKF, then numbering exceptions are not permitted, so there ain't much incentive to do that. Just be aware of who (by number) touches a LFP, and/or where. If it ain't one of the 6 possible eligibles when the SKF was established, then you've got a foul. And, if someone other than the 6 possible eligibles is downfield before the LFP is released, you've got a foul.
All of this is intended to keep Team A from unfairly confusing Team B as to which players are eligible. Like I said, the best way to look at it is: as soon as the SKF is first established, any 'exceptions' are now, effectively, wearing numbers 50-79, and they have to comply with rules related to player numbering - and that can't change, unless there is a time out.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2024, 10:50:00 AM »
OR LESS!!!  I could suggest a few they stuck us with that we could dump back out!!

Which ones?

There's a good chance I'll agree with you.

Online GoodScout

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2024, 10:17:42 PM »
Which ones?

There's a good chance I'll agree with you.
Sounds like a good new thread!

Offline keehner87

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2025, 08:00:55 AM »
All facemask fouls 15 yards.

I understand from an officials perspective that it would just be easier for you and eliminate the guessing.  But as a coach, we had at least 2 situations this year where a RB lowered his pad level and our tackler didn't lower his enough and his hand raked across the facemask of the RB.  Never grabbed but it was enough to make the RB's head move.  Appropriately, it was only the 5 yard facemask.  Its those situations where I wish the other levels had kept the two separate.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2025, 10:18:41 AM »
I understand from an officials perspective that it would just be easier for you and eliminate the guessing.  But as a coach, we had at least 2 situations this year where a RB lowered his pad level and our tackler didn't lower his enough and his hand raked across the facemask of the RB.  Never grabbed but it was enough to make the RB's head move.  Appropriately, it was only the 5 yard facemask.  Its those situations where I wish the other levels had kept the two separate.
Removing 5 Yard FM a few years ago was on the docket. One committee member asked : "WHAT IS A 5 YARD FACEMASK  ??? ?".
Being a bigbouth tR:oLl I felt the need to respond :
       " Pretend that you are unknowingly dating a hermaphrodite. On your third date - you are a gentleman - you slide your hand down the front of their dress. You  :!# grab something  :!# you know you shouldn't be grabing  :o , and quickly pull your hand away :puke: . That's sorta' like the 5 yard facemask  tiphat: .

The proposal quickly fell.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2025, 10:32:57 AM »
I understand from an officials perspective that it would just be easier for you and eliminate the guessing.  But as a coach, we had at least 2 situations this year where a RB lowered his pad level and our tackler didn't lower his enough and his hand raked across the facemask of the RB.  Never grabbed but it was enough to make the RB's head move.  Appropriately, it was only the 5 yard facemask.  Its those situations where I wish the other levels had kept the two separate.
:
Believe it, or not, NFHS football is still a learning level of football, and some lessons are "life-long", like staying away from an opponent's face mask.  Somewhat like "NEVER go in the bathroom when your mother (or sister) is taking a shower", there are no exceptions & Pandora has kept that door closed, forever.  it is, what it is, players & Coaches should understand contact with an opponent's face mask is prohibited, all contact.

Of course such (prohibited) contact must be genuinely & specifically observed, but assessing the extent of such contact is immaterial and unnecessary and establishing a tiered penalty approach would serve ONLY to INCREASE the efforts to "reach for" an opponent's facemask and dilute the intent to avoid ANY contact.

Online GoodScout

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2025, 09:42:35 AM »
A lot of high-school fans feel NFL  NCAA rules should be called.  They get their rules knowledge " as seen on TV"...

And parroting them in NFHS isn't going to solve that. It will make it worse as more officials have more trouble with more complicated rulesets with more exceptions and variations.

QUIT. YOUR. LOVE. AFFAIR. WITH. NCAA. AND. NFL. RULES. AND. WRITE. THEM. FOR. 16-YEAR-OLDS.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2025, 06:47:21 AM »
And parroting them in NFHS isn't going to solve that. It will make it worse as more officials have more trouble with more complicated rulesets with more exceptions and variations.

QUIT. YOUR. LOVE. AFFAIR. WITH. NCAA. AND. NFL. RULES. AND. WRITE. THEM. FOR. 16-YEAR-OLDS.
If you are mic'd or have a loud voice, you can clairfy the difference prior to the signal. A few years back we had a kickoff bounce off a reciever's hands and into the end zone where a kicking team member fell on it. His team went wild   nAnA nAnA until I announced : "IN HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL, ONCE A KICK GOES INTO THE ENDZONE IT BECOMES DEAD AND A TOUCHBACK." The joy turned to  :( sadness but the  :puke: boos were absent.

Online GoodScout

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2025, 06:26:34 PM »
You make a good point, but if I learned anything in 2024 it's that you can't fix others' stupidity, and you should do your damnest not to adapt to it.

As the saying goes, if you lower yourself to a stupid person's level, they'll beat you with experience.

Offline refjeff

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2025, 03:03:04 PM »
This got me thinking (a dangerous past time, I know). The numbering exception kicks in when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage kick formation, but there's no requirement that they remain in that formation or snap the ball in that formation.

In theory, and this is kind of silly, A's snapper could wear 22 the whole game as long as every play starts with the QB being set 10 yards behind the LOS before shifting into a more normal shotgun/under center formation. With the trend of offenses lining up, calling a few signals, then looking to the sideline to see what the play is, it wouldn't be completely absurd.
Not legal.  By definition 22 is not the snapper until he snaps the ball.  In the huddle or standing at the LOS means nothing.  The numbering requirement, and thus the exception, takes effect at the snap, 7-2-5-b. 

Offline ncwingman

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Re: What NCAA/NFL rules do you want to see in NFHS?
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2025, 04:21:56 PM »
Not legal.  By definition 22 is not the snapper until he snaps the ball.  In the huddle or standing at the LOS means nothing.  The numbering requirement, and thus the exception, takes effect at the snap, 7-2-5-b.

The exceptions kicks in when "A sets or shifts into a scrimmage kick formation", not at the snap when in said formation, and anybody who sets or shifts into an ineligible position remains ineligible even if they shift to an eligible position later. I do not see any language that requires that they must remain in a scrimmage kick formation.