Author Topic: Clock will start on the ____________?  (Read 756 times)

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Offline SCHSref

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Clock will start on the ____________?
« on: January 19, 2025, 06:16:45 PM »
4/10 from K30. K punts and it is fielded and R12 is tackled at the 50. But,  ^flag.  Illegal shift on K. White hat asks coach and coach says, "Back them up and replay."

Does the clock start on the snap or wind?
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2025, 10:38:34 PM »
On the snap. There was a legal kick during the down.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2025, 07:25:11 AM »
On the snap. There was a legal kick during the down.

That aligns with NCAA, and the reason is because of the wholesale substitutions that are made for kick downs. This is a legitimate ‘break’ in the action that both teams should be able to utilize to change personnel. To have the game clock running during this time (even if stopped briefly) would rob both teams of valuable game time.
Ooops. I shouldn’t have said that. Just let TV find out a way to burn more game time and they’ll insist on having the clock start when the ball is spotted. Or never stop to begin with.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2025, 07:41:45 AM »
On the snap. There was a legal kick during the down.

If R is awarded a new series, which they weren't. Is there another rule to cite for the snap?
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2025, 07:42:44 AM »
Just let TV find out a way to burn more game time and they’ll insist on having the clock start when the ball is spotted.

Which is what we used to do prior to the 1996 timing changes, if the play ended inbounds.  It’s the #2 reason my average game time has jumped from 1:45 to 2:30 (more incomplete passes is #1).

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2025, 07:54:04 AM »
If either team is awarded a new series following a  kick , the clock starts on the snap.( 3-4-3c) . K is not getting a new series so clock would start on RFP unless a fair catch was made (3-4-3j) or their kick goes OOB (3-4-3a).

Our rationale back in 1996 was if a new series was awarded to either team there would be several substitutions as K > A/B & R > A/B.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2025, 07:06:33 AM by Ralph Damren »

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2025, 08:03:14 AM »
If either team is awarded a new series following a free kick , the clock starts on the snap.( 3-4-3c) . K is not getting a new series so clock would start on RFP unless a fair catch was made (3-4-3j) or ther kick goes OOB (3-4-3a).

Our rationale back in 1996 was if a new series was awarded to either team there would be several substitutions as K > A/B & R > A/B.

How about a legal scrimmage kick down?

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2025, 08:03:46 AM »
If either team is awarded a new series following a free kick , the clock starts on the snap.( 3-4-3c) . K is not getting a new series so clock would start on RFP unless a fair catch was made (3-4-3j) or ther kick goes OOB (3-4-3a).

Our rationale back in 1996 was if a new series was awarded to either team there would be several substitutions as K > A/B & R > A/B.

Thanks Ralph...I'm sure our "winter blast" here in SC is nothing compared to the frigid Taiga of Maine
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline bossman72

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2025, 10:03:13 AM »
Clock starts on the ready.
Interestingly, if on that same play the returner ran out of bounds at the 50, we're going on the snap.
If he fair caught the ball, we're going on the snap.

I keep trying to submit an editorial change to eliminate confusion on this.  I want to alter 3-4-3b to add "The clock will start on the snap when..." "...B or R is awarded a new series and will next snap the ball.

I also need to submit a change to 3-4-3f : A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.
Why do we go on the snap after a TV time out?  On a run up the middle, a player gets injured.  No TV time out, we go on the ready.  TV time out, we go on the snap.  How much sense does that make?  Why would we let TV affect the game?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 10:31:36 AM by bossman72 »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2025, 12:41:21 PM »
4/10 from K30. K punts and it is fielded and R12 is tackled at the 50. But,  ^flag.  Illegal shift on K. White hat asks coach and coach says, "Back them up and replay."

Does the clock start on the snap or wind?
I hope white hat didn't forget about 10-4-2 Exception and offer R the ball @ K's 45.  8]

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2025, 08:42:15 AM »
I hope white hat didn't forget about 10-4-2 Exception and offer R the ball @ K's 45.  8]

He didn't. this coach has a reputation for backing up K and having the down replayed.
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2025, 01:05:13 PM »
I keep trying to submit an editorial change to eliminate confusion on this.  I want to alter 3-4-3b to add "The clock will start on the snap when..." "...B or R is awarded a new series and will next snap the ball.

I'm having a hard time interpreting this. When is there a situation where B/R is awarded a new series, but will *not* be next to snap the ball?

I think I get why you want to make the change, but I don't think this is going to achieve that end.

Personally, my idea for tossing a grenade in that rule -- the clock status for a replayed down is the same as the clock status of the original down (with a whole boatload of exceptions and subclauses). If the down is replayed due to penalty, we're saying that down didn't happen... so why would the outcome of that down that didn't happen influence the status of the clock?

I might restrict that to if the foul is enforced from the previous spot, or ignore that if a new series is awarded after penalty administration. Obviously, the offended team having the right to hold to the snap under 2 minutes would be required. Like I said, there'd be a boat load of subclauses and would cause maximum confusion -- but fun! Doesn't that sound fun?

I also need to submit a change to 3-4-3f : A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.
Why do we go on the snap after a TV time out?  On a run up the middle, a player gets injured.  No TV time out, we go on the ready.  TV time out, we go on the snap.  How much sense does that make?  Why would we let TV affect the game?

I might go further and remove the idea that TV/radio can initiate a time out. I know that in practice they don't, but maybe state the referee has the authority to extend a time out for media purposes, only during a charged team timeout, after a score or after a change of possession. If they want to duck out for a commercial during an injury and they don't come back in time, that's on them. In the allowed situations, the clock would start on the snap (or when the free kick is first touched by R) and not on the ready.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2025, 11:09:57 PM »
I'm having a hard time interpreting this. When is there a situation where B/R is awarded a new series, but will *not* be next to snap the ball?

Because people misinterpret the rule as written.  People think on an interception that the result of the play is B being awarded a new series.  So if we call defensive holding and give the ball back to the offense, people want to go on the snap because "you go on the snap on a change of possession".  This small change clarifies that that is not the case.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2025, 12:31:00 PM »
Because people misinterpret the rule as written.  People think on an interception that the result of the play is B being awarded a new series.  So if we call defensive holding and give the ball back to the offense, people want to go on the snap because "you go on the snap on a change of possession".  This small change clarifies that that is not the case.

Now you're making me question myself here -- who is misinterpreting the rule as written? 5-1-2a seems pretty clear that a new series is only awarded after considering the effect of any act during the down, notably that live ball foul. Decline the foul and you award a new series, enforce the foul and you don't. I'm doing it right, correct?

I still feel that the attempt at clarification may only lead to more confusion, because it implies that they can be awarded a series but not have the ball. If anything, maybe replace "B/K is awarded a new series" with "B/K is next to snap the ball" rather than having both phrases.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2025, 08:43:18 PM »
Now you're making me question myself here -- who is misinterpreting the rule as written? 5-1-2a seems pretty clear that a new series is only awarded after considering the effect of any act during the down, notably that live ball foul. Decline the foul and you award a new series, enforce the foul and you don't. I'm doing it right, correct?

Your understanding of the rule is correct, but I would wager if you gave this exact play to your association you'd get a very mixed bag of answers, especially if you ask them to explain it.  I know at least people around my area do.  I think this clarification would help and wouldn't be that confusing.

Quote
I still feel that the attempt at clarification may only lead to more confusion, because it implies that they can be awarded a series but not have the ball.

I mean, even if it did imply that, so what?
If "B will be awarded a new series and will next snap the ball" = go on the snap
..then if B is "awarded" a new series and is not next to snap the ball, go on the ready.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2025, 08:50:07 PM by bossman72 »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2025, 07:47:03 AM »
If "B will be awarded a new series and will next snap the ball" = go on the snap
..then if B is "awarded" a new series and is not next to snap the ball, go on the ready.

If I were a new official, I’d be really confused by this.

If B is next to snap the ball, it’s because they were awarded a new series.  The clock will start on the snap.  Otherwise, the clock starts on the ready.

It’s that simple.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2025, 08:17:35 PM »
I mean, even if it did imply that, so what?
If "B will be awarded a new series and will next snap the ball" = go on the snap
..then if B is "awarded" a new series and is not next to snap the ball, go on the ready.

I don't mean to disparage my fellow officials, but there have been a few times in recent years where there was a discussion about a rule that seemed to be clearly written and unambiguous resulted in a long discussion from somebody who just didn't get it. One that sticks out to me in particular is invoking the numbering exception for scrimmage kicks and there's a long discussion of what "between the ends" means.

To that end, I'm a little leery of rules that are written to be unnecessarily complex. I feel the editorial committee likes to pretend they're lawyers and writing legalese to sound smart sometimes, and it's just... well, you've read the rule book. I don't want to risk unintended consequences because we're writing rules to try to cover every possible scenario, just to invent a few more that nobody ever thought of.

For example, and this is just a devil's advocate situation, somebody reads that rule that R receives the punt on 4th and 15 and is tackled in bounds at the K5 after a long return, therefore the result of the play is R being awarded a new series. However, R had a 12th man running off the field at the snap, and K accepts the 5 yard penalty from the previous spot -- but since we awarded a new series to R, then gave the ball back to K, somebody interprets that as an A-B-A scenario and it's 1st and 10 for K. That is, of course, very wrong, but I fear putting the idea of "R can be awarded a new series, but doesn't keep the ball" in somebody's head.

To that end, I'd be a little more concerned about that official wanting to enforce that foul as PSK or (worse) from the succeeding spot.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Clock will start on the ____________?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2025, 06:28:27 AM »
It might help to add clairity if we thought of it this way: If a team changes from kicking unit to defense or offense, clock will start on the snap. When we rewrote the COP clock  rule back in 1996, our intent was to allow a little more time for a team to shift players in and out. Granted, in some games it may only mean Bubba ,the snapper, will leave and Tugboat, the middle linebacker, will enter  ;).

Don't worry, guys, the new rules willbe here soon.  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: