Author Topic: Interesting Extend Period Question  (Read 679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bctgp

  • *
  • Posts: 255
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-10
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Interesting Extend Period Question
« on: January 26, 2025, 11:22:05 PM »
Team A kicks a successful FG as time expires in the 2nd QTR. During the play Team B commits a live-ball personal foul.  What are the enforcement options especially as it relates to possible period extended?

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2025, 08:28:04 AM »
That's a great question. Based on the two rules below, specifically the exception in 3-2-3-a-1, I'd say that 15 yarders are enforced on the KO to the 3rd quarter, whereas 5 and 10 yarders extend the period.

ARTICLE 3. a. A period shall be extended for an untimed down if one or more of the following occurs during a down in which time expires in the 2nd or 4th quarter (A.R. 3-2-3-I-VIII):
1. A penalty is accepted for a live-ball foul(s) (Exception: Rule 10-2-5-a). At the option of the offended team, the period is not extended if the foul is by the team in possession and the statement of the penalty
includes loss of down (A.R. 3-2-3-VIII).

10-2-5-a-1 states that Fifteen-yard penalties for personal fouls and for unsportsmanlike conduct fouls are enforced on the try, the succeeding kickoff or from the succeeding spot in extra periods at the option of the scoring team.

Since there is no try after a field goal, and we're not in extra periods, the only option is to enforce the foul on the succeeding kickoff.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3365
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-35
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2025, 08:46:47 AM »
Since there is no try after a field goal, and we're not in extra periods, the only option is to enforce the foul on the succeeding kickoff.

So there is no option to take the points off the board and run an untimed down after the penalty enforcement?

Offline Cowtown Ref

  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2025, 08:51:41 AM »
Yes, they would have the option of replaying the down after the 15 yd enforcement.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2025, 08:56:56 AM »
Yes, they would have the option of replaying the down after the 15 yd enforcement.

Based on what rule, and does that rule supersede 3-2-3-a-1?

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2025, 08:58:59 AM »
So there is no option to take the points off the board and run an untimed down after the penalty enforcement?

As I understand the exception quoted above, no… and this apparent contradiction was the source of the original question, I would guess.

Offline FWREF

  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2025, 12:42:11 PM »
Ok guys you can always pull the score and accept the penalty on a successful FG. In the situation above it would indeed be with an untimed down. If Team A keeps the score the penalty would be on the succeeding kickoff.

10-5-d
d.   Penalties for live-ball fouls during field goal plays are administered by rule.
When the field goal is successful, Team A shall have the option of canceling
the score and have the penalty enforced from the previous spot or declining
the penalty(ies) and accepting the score. Team A may accept the score with
penalties for personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls enforced
on the succeeding kickoff or from the succeeding spot in extra periods.
Penalties for live-ball fouls treated as dead-ball fouls and those for dead-ball
fouls after a field goal down are enforced at the succeeding spot.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2025, 01:27:22 PM »
I don’t disagree that this is what the rulebook stays, as well as common sense and fairness, but that doesn’t square with the exception in 3-2-3-a-1.

What’s an example of where 3-2-3-a-1 exception would be used then, if not here?

Offline blindtxzebra

  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2025, 02:40:47 PM »
I don’t disagree that this is what the rulebook stays, as well as common sense and fairness, but that doesn’t square with the exception in 3-2-3-a-1.

What’s an example of where 3-2-3-a-1 exception would be used then, if not here?

You are missing a big part of the exception for 10-2-5-a. This is for PF that occur during a down that ends in a touchdown. The original example that started this thread was a successful FG.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2025, 02:55:40 PM »
Yall are right.

I was getting mixed up on the the wording of 3-2-3-a-1, where it has the 10-2-5-a-1 exception... Reading it on its face, I was thinking that the 'exception' meant that they are handled differently than what is prescribed in the 3-2-3 verbiage... it actually does align with the exception in 10-2-5-d.

It's just oddly phrased, I think, and probably not everyone interprets things the same way I do. Exception is probably not the best word choice for what that is... semantics/language interpretation for me can be difficult at times; sometimes I am too literal, and I think that was the case here.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3365
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-35
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2025, 01:22:41 AM »
Not disagreeing that NCAA rules are sometimes confusingly written, but that's why you always check the A.R.'s if you think there might be confusion :) A.R.'s 10-2-5-VII is very much on point and pretty clear.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2025, 07:54:40 AM »
I've never understood why they don't move the ARs to the relevant section in the rulebook, instead of having them completely separated. Would be so much easier. And not difficult - I am 99.99% certain that the 'master' version of the rulebook is a word document, so you could even make the traditional rulebook, and then one with them combined. Would be great to see the examples the AR gives right there without having to go to an entirely different place in the book.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3365
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-35
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2025, 08:13:40 AM »
I've never understood why they don't move the ARs to the relevant section in the rulebook, instead of having them completely separated. Would be so much easier. And not difficult - I am 99.99% certain that the 'master' version of the rulebook is a word document, so you could even make the traditional rulebook, and then one with them combined. Would be great to see the examples the AR gives right there without having to go to an entirely different place in the book.

This is actually how the IFAF rule book (99% copy of NCAA rules) is constructed. Makes looking up A.R's a lot easier.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3891
  • FAN REACTION: +177/-149
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2025, 09:36:36 AM »
I've never understood why they don't move the ARs to the relevant section in the rulebook, instead of having them completely separated. Would be so much easier. And not difficult - I am 99.99% certain that the 'master' version of the rulebook is a word document, so you could even make the traditional rulebook, and then one with them combined. Would be great to see the examples the AR gives right there without having to go to an entirely different place in the book.

You mean like this? (See attached.)  :D

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2025, 10:39:37 AM »
exactly!

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3891
  • FAN REACTION: +177/-149
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2025, 11:08:07 AM »
Back then, the 50 (yes, 50) ARs were in the body of the book, but there was a separate book called the Official Football Rules Interpretations, which contained much text expanding on the purpose, intent, and application of the rules. That book also had dozens and dozens of "examples" to illustrate application of the rules and interpretations.
In 1976, the Interpretations book was directly incorporated (maybe 'attached' is a better word) into the Rule book (as we have today), and the ARs, that had been in the Rule Book, were moved into the Interpretations section. So, in the Interpretations section, there were both ARs and Examples. Not necessarily a problem, but the ARs held more weight than the Examples, if there was ambiguity or conflict.
In 1986, the Examples all became ARs, which is where we are, today (format-wise).

I don't think anyone would argue that having the applicable ARs located directly with the associated rules would be very, very convenient, and time saving.

Offline DallasLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 562
  • FAN REACTION: +16/-15
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2025, 07:06:07 PM »
Team A kicks a successful FG as time expires in the 2nd QTR. During the play Team B commits a live-ball personal foul.  What are the enforcement options especially as it relates to possible period extended?
  Okay -- I was in the room when this came up.  So this is straight from the horse's mouth.

  The genesis of this issue was a discussion last Saturday in the Dallas Football Officials Assn Crew Chief training class.  We had a very good presenter discussing everyone's favorite topic -- the Kicking Game.  The discussion got around to fouls on successful field goals and trys.  Somewhere in the discussion, someone said what happens if the foul (say Roughing the Kicker or Contact on the Snapper, or Leaping) happens on the last play of the 2nd quarter as Team A kicks a successful FG.  The discussions then went like this:

  "Well, Team A can accept the penalty yardage and get 15 yards (or half the distance) and have an automatic first down.  Or accept the points and have the penalty enforced on the 2nd half kickoff" citing Rule 10-5-2-d.  That is when I spoke up and said that was not correct.  Just like if you took the points off the board and ran a 1st down play -- it would be an extension of the 2nd period for an untimed down.  Similarly,  taking the points and enforcing on the succeeding kickoff per Rule 10-2-5-d should be an untimed down before the 2nd half.

  A spirited discussion ensured over the break and I pointed out to those at my table that under Rule 3-2-3 extension of period for an untimed down occurs when there is a accepted live ball foul that does not include a loss of down as part of the penalty.  Now, there is an exception within 3-2-3-a-1 for Rule 10-2-5-a.  10-5-2-a is specific to fouls on touchdowns.  Rule 3-2-3 extension of period has no exception for fouls on FGs or Trys under 10-5-2-d.  Granted this leads to a peculiar situation where you would have a kickoff with a 15 yard penalty enforced and go immediately to the half after the kickoff.  Kind of takes away the incentive of Team A to accept the penalty on the succeeding kickoff because there is no upside to basically giving his opponent a chance to score on a return, or just squibbing the ball down the middle, and then going to half. 

  One of the guys at my table raised this glitch in the rule by email with a college official trainer friend while we were in the meeting.  That college trainer apparently then raised the issue with Shaw, who supposedly said that an editorial change would be made in the off season.  So, I suspect that Rule 3-2-3-a-1 will be changed to have the exception apply to all of 10-5-2 or simply add 10-5-2-d to the exception alongside 10-5-2-a.

   Fun that a room full of Dallas High School officials effect a change in the NCAA Rulebook.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3891
  • FAN REACTION: +177/-149
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2025, 07:51:52 PM »

   Fun that a room full of Dallas High School officials effect a change in the NCAA Rulebook.

Used to happen somewhat regularly when the UIL [Bailey Marshal) had a voting seat on the Committee.  TASO - excuse me - SFOA (Dotson Lewis) was able to consult with Marshal (and may have actually been in the room).

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3365
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-35
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2025, 02:37:50 AM »
I think this is a clear oversight from the rule change in 2018 aligning the FG PF penalty enforcement with other scoring plays, and I probably would have enforced the PF on the kickoff on the 2nd half. Good that this will be fixed. Interesting that it took seven years for somebody to spot it.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1403
  • FAN REACTION: +32/-9
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2025, 07:20:27 AM »
  Okay -- I was in the room when this came up.  So this is straight from the horse's mouth.

  The genesis of this issue was a discussion last Saturday in the Dallas Football Officials Assn Crew Chief training class.  We had a very good presenter discussing everyone's favorite topic -- the Kicking Game.  The discussion got around to fouls on successful field goals and trys.  Somewhere in the discussion, someone said what happens if the foul (say Roughing the Kicker or Contact on the Snapper, or Leaping) happens on the last play of the 2nd quarter as Team A kicks a successful FG.  The discussions then went like this:

  "Well, Team A can accept the penalty yardage and get 15 yards (or half the distance) and have an automatic first down.  Or accept the points and have the penalty enforced on the 2nd half kickoff" citing Rule 10-5-2-d.  That is when I spoke up and said that was not correct.  Just like if you took the points off the board and ran a 1st down play -- it would be an extension of the 2nd period for an untimed down.  Similarly,  taking the points and enforcing on the succeeding kickoff per Rule 10-2-5-d should be an untimed down before the 2nd half.

  A spirited discussion ensured over the break and I pointed out to those at my table that under Rule 3-2-3 extension of period for an untimed down occurs when there is a accepted live ball foul that does not include a loss of down as part of the penalty.  Now, there is an exception within 3-2-3-a-1 for Rule 10-2-5-a.  10-5-2-a is specific to fouls on touchdowns.  Rule 3-2-3 extension of period has no exception for fouls on FGs or Trys under 10-5-2-d.  Granted this leads to a peculiar situation where you would have a kickoff with a 15 yard penalty enforced and go immediately to the half after the kickoff.  Kind of takes away the incentive of Team A to accept the penalty on the succeeding kickoff because there is no upside to basically giving his opponent a chance to score on a return, or just squibbing the ball down the middle, and then going to half. 

  One of the guys at my table raised this glitch in the rule by email with a college official trainer friend while we were in the meeting.  That college trainer apparently then raised the issue with Shaw, who supposedly said that an editorial change would be made in the off season.  So, I suspect that Rule 3-2-3-a-1 will be changed to have the exception apply to all of 10-5-2 or simply add 10-5-2-d to the exception alongside 10-5-2-a.

   Fun that a room full of Dallas High School officials effect a change in the NCAA Rulebook.

I think that glitch is a good way to describe this.  I can see the issue I just didn't articulate it well (and still got it wrong)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2025, 07:24:25 AM by dammitbobby »

Online oldtimerref

  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2025, 08:46:37 AM »
I still have the 1976 NCAA book with rules and interpretations with David Nelson, Editor.   Rule additions included mandatory equipment shoulder pads, hip pads and thigh guards  plus spearing rule definition added.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3891
  • FAN REACTION: +177/-149
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2025, 10:45:20 AM »
I still have the 1976 NCAA book with rules and interpretations with David Nelson, Editor.   Rule additions included mandatory equipment shoulder pads, hip pads and thigh guards  plus spearing rule definition added.

Back then, we used to get Nelson AND John Adams to be our exclusive presenters at our regional workshop, and workshops were Friday evening, all day Saturday, and Sunday mornings. We learned a lot, and we learned it right. I miss those days. 3-hour workshops with two 25 minute breaks just don’t get the job done.

Offline Etref

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 2328
  • FAN REACTION: +86/-28
  • " I don't make the rules coach!"
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2025, 01:10:33 PM »
Back then, we used to get Nelson AND John Adams to be our exclusive presenters at our regional workshop, and workshops were Friday evening, all day Saturday, and Sunday mornings. We learned a lot, and we learned it right. I miss those days. 3-hour workshops with two 25 minute breaks just don’t get the job done.

Those were the good times, my friend!
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3891
  • FAN REACTION: +177/-149
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2025, 01:51:08 PM »
Those were the good times, my friend!

 :thumbup

Online oldtimerref

  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Interesting Extend Period Question
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2025, 05:07:47 PM »
When I was in the Southern Conference Dallas Shirley brought in John Adams for football and the WAC  would  bring in Mr. Shirley for basketball.