Author Topic: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching  (Read 4633 times)

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Offline fudilligas

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Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« on: July 25, 2024, 10:22:02 PM »
2/10 @ B-30. QB A10, who has not been outside the tackle box, throws a desperation pass from the B-35 that falls incomplete after ineligible A58 touches the ball in an attempt to catch it at the line of scrimmage. There were no eligible receivers in the area.

Technically, do we have 2 penalties on the play even though the IG will be the one enforced...just looking for the technicality on whether or not there are 2 penalties on the play

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2024, 11:10:07 PM »
Ask yourself this question: Can there be illegal touching on an illegal forward pass?

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2024, 09:56:23 AM »
See rule 7-5-13 for your answer.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Fatso

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2024, 11:35:48 AM »
Agree with Elvis....  this is an illegal forward pass (7-5-2d), therefore you can't have illegal touching.  Illegal touching only applies to a legal forward pass (7-5-13).

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2024, 11:48:47 AM »
Agree with Elvis....  this is an illegal forward pass (7-5-2d), therefore you can't have illegal touching.  Illegal touching only applies to a legal forward pass (7-5-13).

Just to be clear, I was asking, not offering an answer, because I don’t know/do NFHS. But, based on what I do know about football rules, in general, it seemed like a question worth asking. You and NVFOA_Ump provided the rule reference. So the answer to fudulligas’ question is, “No. There is only one foul - for intentional grounding.”
I am interested to know, though, if A58 had caught the ball, do you still call it Intentional GROUNDING?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Offline TNofficial

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2024, 11:56:02 AM »
Just to be clear, I was asking, not offering an answer, because I don’t know/do NFHS. But, based on what I do know about football rules, in general, it seemed like a question worth asking. You and NVFOA_Ump provided the rule reference. So the answer to fudulligas’ question is, “No. There is only one foul - for intentional grounding.”
I am interested to know, though, if A58 had caught the ball, do you still call it Intentional GROUNDING?

Inquiring minds want to know.

If it meets the criteria, then I have thrown that flag. I'm mainly thinking of a quarterback who is clearly in distress and throwing it to save the yardage. I don't believe he gets bailed out just because a player who is not eligible caught the ball.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2024, 11:58:10 AM »
I am interested to know, though, if A58 had caught the ball, do you still call it Intentional GROUNDING?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I assume so, but great question.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2024, 12:31:31 PM »
If it meets the criteria, then I have thrown that flag. I'm mainly thinking of a quarterback who is clearly in distress and throwing it to save the yardage. I don't believe he gets bailed out just because a player who is not eligible caught the ball.

Oh, yeah, I acknowledge it is a foul for some type of illegal pass. Just didn’t know if it would still be called Intentional ‘Grounding’ under NFHS rules. Or some other name, like “Illegal Forward Pass - intentionally thrown to an ineligible player.”

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2024, 08:10:37 AM »
But remember that you can only have one foul here.  If you have Intentional Grounding then by rule you cannot have Illegal Touching.  I have no issue with IG as described in the case play.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2024, 09:25:43 AM »
Just to be clear, I was asking, not offering an answer, because I don’t know/do NFHS. But, based on what I do know about football rules, in general, it seemed like a question worth asking. You and NVFOA_Ump provided the rule reference. So the answer to fudulligas’ question is, “No. There is only one foul - for intentional grounding.”
I am interested to know, though, if A58 had caught the ball, do you still call it Intentional GROUNDING?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Yes. Because Illegal touching can only happen during a LEGAL forward pass. Doesn't matter if he touches it or catches it...

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2024, 10:30:59 AM »
Yes. Because Illegal touching can only happen during a LEGAL forward pass. Doesn't matter if he touches it or catches it...

That would align with what I know about the games I work. “Intentional Grounding, number 10, offense…”. The crowd doesn’t understand, i.e., how can it be “grounding” if somebody catches the passed ball? But, that is what it is called.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2024, 10:45:36 AM »
That would align with what I know about the games I work. “Intentional Grounding, number 10, offense…”. The crowd doesn’t understand, i.e., how can it be “grounding” if somebody catches the passed ball? But, that is what it is called.

Yep. Maybe a helpful comment on the mic would be something like this, "Intentional grounding, #10, offense. Pass thrown into area with no eligible receiver, therefore it's an illegal forward pass."

Offline fudilligas

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2024, 04:20:28 PM »
Yep. Maybe a helpful comment on the mic would be something like this, "Intentional grounding, #10, offense. Pass thrown into area with no eligible receiver, therefore it's an illegal forward pass."

or maybe just announce illegal forward pass

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2024, 05:23:35 PM »
or maybe just announce illegal forward pass
Are there penalty differences between Illegal Forward Passes and Intentional Grounding?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2024, 06:36:03 PM »
Are there penalty differences between Illegal Forward Passes and Intentional Grounding?

No. Intentional grounding is by rule an illegal forward pass.

Offline Football101

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2024, 11:03:50 AM »
I am going to take a different approach on this play.

2/10 @ B-30. QB A10, who has not been outside the tackle box, throws a desperation pass from the B-35 that falls incomplete after ineligible A58 touches the ball in an attempt to catch it at the line of scrimmage. There were no eligible receivers in the area.

It seems to me that everyone is getting hung up on the " There were no eligible receivers in the area."
If I am the white hat on Friday night, I would rule this as -- Illegal touching and not a illegal forward pass or intentional grounding, as I think people might be thinking too much on intent.

If we report this as a illegal pass, and the coach wants a ruling and we tell him that their was NO receiver in the area. Then the other team's receiver runs a slant route and the QB throws a deep out route ball and their is NO receiver in that area, are we going to call that IG or illegal forward pass, because I am guessing that is what the coach will be saying. Not sure how you are going to get out of that one.
 Just my 2 cents worth -- Look forward to others comments !!!

Offline Football101

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2024, 11:12:00 AM »
also look at page 61 -  table 7-5

Illegal Touching -- Catch by ineligible -- 

Offline Fatso

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2024, 12:23:43 PM »
I am going to take a different approach on this play.

2/10 @ B-30. QB A10, who has not been outside the tackle box, throws a desperation pass from the B-35 that falls incomplete after ineligible A58 touches the ball in an attempt to catch it at the line of scrimmage. There were no eligible receivers in the area.

It seems to me that everyone is getting hung up on the " There were no eligible receivers in the area."
If I am the white hat on Friday night, I would rule this as -- Illegal touching and not a illegal forward pass or intentional grounding, as I think people might be thinking too much on intent.

If we report this as a illegal pass, and the coach wants a ruling and we tell him that their was NO receiver in the area. Then the other team's receiver runs a slant route and the QB throws a deep out route ball and their is NO receiver in that area, are we going to call that IG or illegal forward pass, because I am guessing that is what the coach will be saying. Not sure how you are going to get out of that one.
 Just my 2 cents worth -- Look forward to others comments !!!

If you called illegal touching then the penalty wouldn't be enforced from the B-35 where the illegal pass was thrown.  You're benefiting the offense that way.  Regardless, if there are no receivers in the area of a "desperation pass" then it's intentional grounding which is literally an illegal forward pass.  You can't have illegal touching of an illegal forward pass.

As far as the explanation to the coach, it's straightforward.  QB wasnt outside the tackle box and threw a desperation pass to an area with no eligible receivers.  Your example of a miscommunication between QB and WR on a slant route probably doesn't involve QB under heavy pressure and a desperate attempt to get rid of the ball.  But if it involves heavy pressure, then it would probably be called intentional grounding as well.


Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2024, 02:47:58 PM »
Well let's just make illegal touching and an illegal forward pass from behind the line of scrimmage a 10-yard penalty from the previous spot with a loss of down and be done with it.

Offline Football101

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2024, 09:20:19 PM »
After reviewing 7-5 exceptions, I am to be corrected. 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2024, 02:20:32 PM »
I am going to take a different approach on this play.

2/10 @ B-30. QB A10, who has not been outside the tackle box, throws a desperation pass from the B-35 that falls incomplete after ineligible A58 touches the ball in an attempt to catch it at the line of scrimmage. There were no eligible receivers in the area.

It seems to me that everyone is getting hung up on the " There were no eligible receivers in the area."
If I am the white hat on Friday night, I would rule this as -- Illegal touching and not a illegal forward pass or intentional grounding, as I think people might be thinking too much on intent.

If we report this as a illegal pass, and the coach wants a ruling and we tell him that their was NO receiver in the area. Then the other team's receiver runs a slant route and the QB throws a deep out route ball and their is NO receiver in that area, are we going to call that IG or illegal forward pass, because I am guessing that is what the coach will be saying. Not sure how you are going to get out of that one.
 Just my 2 cents worth -- Look forward to others comments !!!
The reason it's intentional grounding is because there were no eligible receivers in the area. If there had been, it would have been a legal pass, and you could throw for illegal touching. In this case, it doesn't matter whether the ineligible touched it or not. However, if the QB had been outside the tackle box, then it would be a legal pass touched illegally by an ineligible, and while you couldn't have intentional grounding, you could have illegal touching.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2024, 03:25:59 PM »
The reason it's intentional grounding is because there were no eligible receivers in the area. If there had been, it would have been a legal pass, and you could throw for illegal touching. In this case, it doesn't matter whether the ineligible touched it or not. However, if the QB had been outside the tackle box, then it would be a legal pass touched illegally by an ineligible, and while you couldn't have intentional grounding, you could have illegal touching.

If the passer is outside the tackle box, and he throws it to an ineligible player behind the NZ, is that still a legal pass?
If the passer is outside the tackle box, is it still intentional grounding if the ball reaches/crosses the neutral zone (even though touched/caught by an ineligible player)?

 

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2024, 04:53:45 PM »
If the passer is outside the tackle box, and he throws it to an ineligible player behind the NZ, is that still a legal pass?
If the passer is outside the tackle box, is it still intentional grounding if the ball reaches/crosses the neutral zone (even though touched/caught by an ineligible player)?


#1 - I would have Illegal Forward Pass, Intentional Grounding since the ball did not cross the NZ.  I would ignore the touch/catch and pick up the flag that was thrown by the wing official.
#2 - This is a legal "dump", so no Intentional Grounding, but results in Illegal Touching if touched/caught beyond the NZ by an ineligible player.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2024, 06:40:19 PM »
If the passer is outside the tackle box, and he throws it to an ineligible player behind the NZ, is that still a legal pass?
If the passer is outside the tackle box, is it still intentional grounding if the ball reaches/crosses the neutral zone (even though touched/caught by an ineligible player)?
1. No. The pass has to reach the line of scrimmage to be legal. if it's touched by an ineligible, it's an IFP.
2. No. If the passer reaches the los, it doesn't matter who touches it, it's a legal forward pass.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Intentional Grounding or Illegal Touching
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2024, 08:02:15 AM »
1. No. The pass has to reach the line of scrimmage to be legal. if it's touched by an ineligible, it's an IFP.
2. No. If the passer reaches the los, it doesn't matter who touches it, it's a legal forward pass.

1. Doesn't sound right. A pass to a RB or WR behind the line is a legal pass but didn't reach the LOS. Or if the QB is outside the tackles and throws a pass across the LOS that's touched by an ineligible, that's illegal touching of forward pass but the pass itself would be legal. (If I'm not mistaken)

2. Doesn't sound right. If the pass reaches the LOS but no eligible in the area and QB not outside the tackles, that's an illegal pass (IG).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 08:07:40 AM by Fatso »