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Author Topic: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?  (Read 1378 times)

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Offline Fatso

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Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« on: November 18, 2024, 09:46:08 AM »
K scrimmage kick from their own 10 yd line.  R returns it to the K/6 where the ball is fumbled.  As the ball is bouncing around the K/4 and almost comes to rest, K's muff forces the ball into K's endzone where it is abandoned by both teams and declared dead by rule.

Result?
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2024, 10:48:50 AM »
Touchdown for R.  This is a fumble, so K's muff has no effect on ball status here and the ball ends up dead in the EZ.  Since by rule R "owns" the ball when it becomes dead this will be a TD.  If it were to go OB it would be a TB.
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Offline Fatso

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2024, 12:03:54 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 18, 2024, 10:48:50 AM
Touchdown for R.  This is a fumble, so K's muff has no effect on ball status here and the ball ends up dead in the EZ.  Since by rule R "owns" the ball when it becomes dead this will be a TD.  If it were to go OB it would be a TB.

If it went OB through the endzone, wouldn't K's force make it a safety instead of a TB?
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2024, 01:31:58 PM »
Quote from: Fatso on November 18, 2024, 12:03:54 PM
If it went OB through the endzone, wouldn't K's force make it a safety instead of a TB?
No, by rule the "impetus" is the original fumble by R and the muff by K does not change that.  Review Rule 2, Section 13 - Force, Article 2 and Article 4.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 01:37:32 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Online ElvisLives

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2024, 01:34:16 PM »
See the NCAA forum for this same action.
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Offline Fatso

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2024, 01:48:49 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 18, 2024, 01:31:58 PM
No, by rule the "impetus" is the original fumble by R and the muff by K does not change that.  Review Rule 2, Section 13 - Force, Article 2 and Article 4.

The original fumble was not going to go into the endzone as the ball was "almost at rest at K/4" when A's muff subsequently forced it across the goal line.

2-13-2 says "unless a new force is applied to either a kick, fumble or backward pass that has been grounded."   

Article 4 (2-13-4) discusses when ball becomes dead with no player in possession.  That seems to answer the original question here, but when we expanded the discussion to if the ball went thru the endzone and OOB, I don't understand why A's force wouldn't be to blame.



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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2024, 02:02:39 PM »
This is always a judgement call and if you are 100% sure that without the muff the ball would not have got to the EZ then potentially you could have a safety.  But read 2-13-2 carefully.  The "new force" that would apply to this play is limited to "... kick, fumble, or backward pass that has been grounded."  Welcome to the world of NFHS circular wording.   ;D 
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Offline Fatso

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2024, 02:05:45 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 18, 2024, 02:02:39 PM
This is always a judgement call and if you are 100% sure that without the muff the ball would not have got to the EZ then potentially you could have a safety.  But read 2-13-2 carefully.  The "new force" that would apply to this play is limited to "... kick, fumble, or backward pass that has been grounded."  Welcome to the world of NFHS circular wording.   ;D

LOL....     thanks for explanation.
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Offline Ted T

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Re: Interesting play scenario, what's the call?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2024, 05:31:02 PM »
Rule 8 - 2 - 1 - C  =   ^good
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