Author Topic: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....  (Read 1608 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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They should be available at a nereby newstand shortly. A few equipment modifications' but the major change is a forward fumble OOB will be returned to the spot of fumble. Clock stops when ball goes OOB, but would start on RFP unless COP. Also, 10-4-4b is removed from 'the basic spot of the foul'. Guess the only thing we have to adjust is to beanbag all fumble spots.
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Offline bossman72

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2025, 01:55:18 PM »
Big training thing is to make sure everyone distinguishes between a fumble and a backward pass.

Offline Fatso

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2025, 02:46:29 PM »
never mind, I misread your post.  thanks
« Last Edit: February 03, 2025, 02:57:05 PM by Fatso »

Offline GoodScout

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2025, 03:00:17 PM »
What's the change to the IP rule?
The press release is far from helpful to true officials and coaches, but it rarely is.

Offline lawdog

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2025, 03:44:08 PM »
What's the change to the IP rule?

They probably haven't even decided what it is yet...  The good ol "editorial committee" will likely change 7 or 8 things and claim it was this.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2025, 06:14:45 AM »
Big training thing is to make sure everyone distinguishes between a fumble and a backward pass.
That was discussed, a backward pass OOB remains a the spot of OOB. A backward fumble OOB also remains the spot of OOB. Our general feeling was that a forward fumble OOB would be an unfair gain by the offense. Remember an INTENTIAL forward fumble can be treated as an IFP and ,if occured on 4th down, results in a COP.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2025, 06:23:20 AM »
What's the change to the IP rule?
The press release is far from helpful to true officials and coaches, but it rarely is.
Treating IP as a spot foul for 9-6-4a (player entering during a live ball) or 9-6-4g (player continuing to play after losing hat) have situations that would be unfair. Don't worry,guys, the Editorial Committee will clairify.

Offline lawdog

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2025, 08:39:40 AM »
Don't worry, guys, the Editorial Committee will clairify.

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Offline SCHSref

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2025, 10:20:56 AM »
They should be available at a nereby newstand shortly. A few equipment modifications' but the major change is a forward fumble OOB will be returned to the spot of fumble. Clock stops when ball goes OOB, but would start on RFP unless COP. Also, 10-4-4b is removed from 'the basic spot of the foul'. Guess the only thing we have to adjust is to beanbag all fumble spots.
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Question for ya Ralph...if the ball is fumbled behind the line and goes OOB, it returns to the spot of the fumble, correct? If so, if A fumbled the ball in its EZ and it went forward and OOB at the 2, then would the result of the play be a safety?
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2025, 11:32:51 AM »
Question for ya Ralph...if the ball is fumbled behind the line and goes OOB, it returns to the spot of the fumble, correct? If so, if A fumbled the ball in its EZ and it went forward and OOB at the 2, then would the result of the play be a safety?


Really looking forward to the actual rule wording.   :sTiR:
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2025, 12:25:27 PM »
Question for ya Ralph...if the ball is fumbled behind the line and goes OOB, it returns to the spot of the fumble, correct? If so, if A fumbled the ball in its EZ and it went forward and OOB at the 2, then would the result of the play be a safety?
Word straight from NFHS : Result of that play would be a safety and  will be supported by a case play.

THE PROPOSED WORDAGE.......
4-3-1 EXCEPTION: When a forward fumble goes out of bounds or is ruled out of bounds by touching between the goal lines, the ball shall be returned to the spot of the fumble, and unless another rule requires the clock to remain stopped, the game clock shall be started when the ball is ready for play.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2025, 12:44:20 PM »
Word straight from NFHS : Result of that play would be a safety and  will be supported by a case play.

THE PROPOSED WORDAGE.......
4-3-1 EXCEPTION: When a forward fumble goes out of bounds or is ruled out of bounds by touching between the goal lines, the ball shall be returned to the spot of the fumble, and unless another rule requires the clock to remain stopped, the game clock shall be started when the ball is ready for play.

Third and five at team A’s 20 yard line. A1 sweeps to his left, loss of 10 yards to the 10 yard line, and fumbles. The ball rolls out of bounds at the 15 yard line.
Ruling: Because the ball was fumbled forward and out of bounds it is returned to the spot of the fumble and belongs to team A at that spot, which is the 10 yard line. It will be fourth and fifteen at the 10 yard line. The clock starts on the ready.

What if A is winning 7-6 and this occurs with 22 seconds left in the game. Under the old rule, the clock is stopped until the snap and A is likely punting. B would get the ball back with some time left in the game.

Under the new rule, it sounds like the clock is stopped when the fumble went OOB. Then the ball is spotted and the game clock starts. Does A get a 25 second play clock? If so, would the game end with A running out the game clock?  Or is a change being made to the timing rules as well ("unless another rule requires the clock to remain stopped ...") ?


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2025, 01:43:51 PM »
Good question ,Patrick, without making a second call to NFHS today here's my opinion :

Apply 3-6-1a-1:  25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:
                         (g) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the refereer for any other reason.

IMHO, unless you ruled an intentional fumble = IFP, ball on A's 5,LOD . Ref could then apply 3-4-6 and start clock on snap.If this occurred on 4th down, remember you can't have an untimed down on a LOD foul.

Offline bossman72

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2025, 02:55:11 PM »
Good question ,Patrick, without making a second call to NFHS today here's my opinion :

Apply 3-6-1a-1:  25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:
                         (g) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the refereer for any other reason.

IMHO, unless you ruled an intentional fumble = IFP, ball on A's 5,LOD . Ref could then apply 3-4-6 and start clock on snap.If this occurred on 4th down, remember you can't have an untimed down on a LOD foul.

No, I don't think this would be 25.  Would we give a team 25 when we stop the clock for a first down?  No.  I see this as similar.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2025, 03:07:36 PM »
Good question ,Patrick, without making a second call to NFHS today here's my opinion :

Apply 3-6-1a-1:  25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:
                         (g) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the refereer for any other reason.

IMHO, unless you ruled an intentional fumble = IFP, ball on A's 5,LOD . Ref could then apply 3-4-6 and start clock on snap.If this occurred on 4th down, remember you can't have an untimed down on a LOD foul.

Here's another one - (don't use up your call quota on my account)

B1 intercepts A's pass at the B 2-yard line and momentum carries B1 into the end zone.  While in the EZ, B1 is running with the ball and then fumbles forward, the ball crosses the goal line into the field of play and the ball goes OOB at the B5-yard line. For momentum to apply the ball has to become dead in the EZ.

If the purpose of the new rule is:
1. to prevent A from fumbling forward OOB beyond the line to gain
2. to prevent A from fumbling forward OOB to stop the clock

then this new rule should only be applicable when:
1. there is no change of possession
2. there is a change of possession and A is next to put the ball in play (A-B-A)

Offline ncwingman

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2025, 05:31:50 PM »
No, I don't think this would be 25.  Would we give a team 25 when we stop the clock for a first down?  No.  I see this as similar.

I agree. Play ends, clock is stopped when the ball goes out of bounds. If it was in possession of the runner, we'd start the 40 -- we don't reset to 25 after spotting the ball back on the field. Additionally, the current rule where we spot the fumble at the OOB spot doesn't result in a 25 second play clock either.

The only consideration I'd give is if it takes a while to sort out the spot, and we have to reset to 25 if it wasn't ready by then. However, that's already a rule.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2025, 05:45:28 PM »
Here's another situation, not clock related:

1/10 at the A35. A7 scrambling in the backfield, fumbles the ball at the A30 and the ball rolls backwards to the A26:

In attempts to gain possession of the ball:

a) A7 muffs the ball out of bounds at the A28
b) A7 muffs the ball out of bounds at the A32
c) B56 muffs the ball out of bounds at the A32
d) B56 has a foot on the sideline when he picks up the loose ball at the A32

I think A and B are simple, the A28 is behind the spot of the fumble, so it's A's ball there. A32 is ahead, so it is returned to the A30.

I think people will have issues and debates on C and D since the defense "caused" the ball to be out of bounds ahead of the fumble spot. However, since force is only relevant with the ball crossing the goal line into the end zone, the ball is still "A's fumble" when it becomes dead and should therefore be returned to the spot of the fumble (A30) if it's out of bounds at the A32.

While this is overall a pretty rare situation, I see this as the opening to restarting the clock after the runner goes out of bounds on "normal" plays like they do in college/NFL now. That sideline sure is a slippery slope...

Offline SCline

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2025, 10:24:10 PM »
I have no issue with c and d returning the ball to the spot of the fumble. Don’t like it? Hold on to the ball.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2025, 07:00:12 AM »
WOW !!  You guys are coming up with some great situations. I'll do my best to respond without help from NFHS....

While I tend to agree now with Bossman's & NCwingman's suggestion of 40" playclock ,like a new series or OOB runner, my concern would be time to sort out the spot of fumble and spoting the ball properly may require 3-5-7j (For any unusal delay in getting the ball ready for play) to be applied.

Patrick, where NFHS said A fumble in own EZ with ball OOB in field of play = saftey, I feel your play under our new rule would return the ball to spot of fumble (own EZ) and apply mo'rule.

NCwingman, this was discussed on the floor and the concesus was that the OOB was last possessed by A the ball would be returned to spot of fumble even of the loose ball had traveled several yards downfield and last muffed by B. Note if B recovered A's fumble and then fumbled OOB , ball would belong to B at spot of fumble.

Hope this helps.  tiphat:
« Last Edit: February 05, 2025, 07:03:15 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Fatso

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2025, 07:45:09 AM »
No, I don't think this would be 25.  Would we give a team 25 when we stop the clock for a first down?  No.  I see this as similar.

How would the R handle restarting the game clock on the RFP?  Does he blow whistle while the 40 is running already, or does he wind with no whistle?  Curious how this would be handled.

Offline bossman72

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2025, 08:10:03 AM »
How would the R handle restarting the game clock on the RFP?  Does he blow whistle while the 40 is running already, or does he wind with no whistle?  Curious how this would be handled.

The same way you would handle gaining a first down in bounds today.  The whistle/no whistle seems to be a state by state mechanic.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2025, 09:13:44 AM »
OK, this is more for Ralph's edification, because we've already been through this (NCAA).

When any fumble goes OOB, unless affected by something else, the play clock is 40 seconds, and starts automatically when the ball becomes dead OOB.

For any forward fumble OOB (and Team A will continue to snap the ball), the game clock stops until the ball is spotted and officials are in position, when the R is to sound his whistle and signal for the game clock to start (including inside 2 minutes in the 2nd/4th periods). Yes, if the ball spotting/officials-in-place process takes us to less than 25 on the play clock, by official interpretation (A.R. 3-2-4-I) we need to pump the play clock to 25 and it should start automatically, without interrupting the game clock.)

(Now, that's the way it is SUPPOSED to be for any OOB condition, except inside 2-mins in the 2nd/4th periods. But TV has pressured the NCAA to have the R re-start the game clock almost as soon as it is stopped. So, you will see the R wind within 2-3 seconds after the ball goes OOB (in possession or loose) - LONG before the ball is spotted. When we first got the current timing rule, Redding issued written instruction (I still have that bulletin) that the R is to sound his whistle with his signal. But the 'cool kids' decided not to sound their whistles. So, today, the vast majority just wind within seconds of stopping the game clock. I always gave my whistle a short tweet with my signal.)

[Having said that, by UIL Exception for high school football in Texas, we do NOT re-start the game clock after out of bounds stoppages (in possession or loose, except forward fumbles OOB). So, there is your precedent, if y'all choose to keep the game clock stopped.]

Regarding the Momentum Exception, following possession of the ball in the field of play, a fumble by the defending team from their own end zone that goes OB (in the field of play or end zone) is, in fact, returned to the spot of the fumble in the end zone, and, officially, the ball is dead at that spot. If impetus is with the defending team, that's a safety. If impetus is by the opponent (via forward pass interception, backward pass interception/recovery, legal kick reception/recovery, fumble reception/recovery), the Momentum Exception applies, which gives the ball to the defending team at the spot where possession was gained in the field of play.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2025, 09:43:17 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline ncwingman

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2025, 09:56:50 AM »
I have no issue with c and d returning the ball to the spot of the fumble. Don’t like it? Hold on to the ball.

I agree that that's likely the correct interpretation, but I just foresee lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth at rule clinics. You know the guy that's been a white hat for 50 years, "knows" the rule book and hates change? But he's usually a blast at every rules clinic, so nothing really new there.

Offline Fatso

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2025, 10:36:19 AM »
The same way you would handle gaining a first down in bounds today.  The whistle/no whistle seems to be a state by state mechanic.
Yep, thanks.  Overthinking things..... 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: The groundhog saw his shadow yesterday...the new rules are here today....
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2025, 10:44:05 AM »
Another thing to remember....IF the ball goes OOB BEHIND the spot of the fumble, the game clock DOESN'T start until the snap. yEs: