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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: cbrunnjo on September 11, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
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Team A is going for a 2 point conversion. QB A12 throws an illegal forward pass because he was crossed the LOS when he passed the ball. The pass was caught in the Endzone.
How do you administer this foul and what rule reference did you use to come up with your ruling?
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Because the foul for an illegal forward pass includes loss of down, the Try is not replayed, whether or not the pass was caught. 7-5-2.
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8-3-4 . . . If during a successful try, a loss of down foul by A occurs, there is no score and no replay.
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8-3-4 . . . If during a successful try, a loss of down foul by A occurs, there is no score and no replay.
What if the defense commits a foul as well, does the 'double foul, replay the down' trump 8-3-4?
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What if the defense commits a foul as well, does the 'double foul, replay the down' trump 8-3-4?
Yes. By 10-2-1, the "penalties cancel, and the down is replayed." When the penalties cancel, the LOD is canceled too.
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Yes. By 10-2-1, the "penalties cancel, and the down is replayed." When the penalties cancel, the LOD is canceled too.
I'm more parsing the English than anything. I understand the concepts, but just wondering why the English is so bad in the rule book when they go after us on the test for the same English.
A foul and a penalty are two different things.
'If a foul occurs....' means I threw my flag. Declining the penalty still means the foul occurred, correct?
So, if I throw a flag for a foul,
8-3-4 . . . If during a successful try, a loss of down foul by A occurs, there is no score and no replay.
why does 8-3-4 not take effect no matter what happens after it? You can't DECLINE a FOUL, but you CAN decline a PENALTY.
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A try is an extension of the last down.
Loss of down = loss of the right to repeat the down.
A foul is an act, a penalty is punishment for the commission of the act.
Rules are written at different times by different people and approved by different committees over time.
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I'm more parsing the English than anything. I understand the concepts, but just wondering why the English is so bad in the rule book when they go after us on the test for the same English.
Now that you've discovered that the NFHS Rules Code is sometimes, just a tad short, of being exactly clear and concise, you might consider that, essentially, the entire NFHS Case Book is an effort to further explain, what might be hard to clearly understand in the Rules presentation. As the Case Book carries the same explanatory weight as the Rule Book,it often can be extremely helpful in understanding the intended application of each NFHS Rule.
Your personal choice is limited to (a) driving yourself insane trying to understand each and every Rule entry, from a grammatical perspective, (b) focus on the conceptual intent of each Rule, and/or (c) make appropriate suggestions for revising the language through the appropriate channels.
There is a (d) option, I hesitate to even mention, which would be to insist on trying to force square pegs into round holes, allowing your consideration of linguistic mistakes to guide your actual rule conclusions away from their intended purpose.
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'If a foul occurs....' means I threw my flag. Declining the penalty still means the foul occurred, correct?
So, if I throw a flag for a foul,
8-3-4 . . . If during a successful try, a loss of down foul by A occurs, there is no score and no replay.
why does 8-3-4 not take effect no matter what happens after it? You can't DECLINE a FOUL, but you CAN decline a PENALTY.
You can't read 8-3-4 in isolation. It refers to a foul by A with no offsetting foul by B.
In a double foul, the fouls offset, so it's as if neither team fouled. By rule we replay the try.
Just the other day I heard a NCAA coordinator complaining about officials who say that "penalties offset" or "penalties cancel," as the NFHS rule book states. In his view, when you have a double foul, there ARE NO penalties, so there's nothing to offset. He wants his crews to say, "the fouls offset."
Strikes me as a quibble, but hey, I'm just an official. :)
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Just the other day I heard a NCAA coordinator complaining about officials who say that "penalties offset" or "penalties cancel," as the NFHS rule book states. In his view, when you have a double foul, there ARE NO penalties, so there's nothing to offset. He wants his crews to say, "the fouls offset."
And that's incorrect, also. The fouls happened. It's the punishment (penalties) for the fouls that offset.
I'll admit, though, that when I have a field mic I say "fouls offset" just for brevity.
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I'm more parsing the English than anything. I understand the concepts, but just wondering why the English is so bad in the rule book when they go after us on the test for the same English.
As we say about the baseball rulebook, it was written by gentlemen, for gentlemen, not by lawyers, for lawyers.
Call by what the rule MEANS, not by what the rule SAYS.