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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: Curious on October 25, 2013, 10:57:38 AM
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Just read a newspaper article about a recent game where the final score was 91-0!!!!!!!!
The article indicated there was no "point differential" rule in Texas 11-man football; and that adoption was fiercely opposed. The article went on to say that the parents of the losing team had filed a "bullying" complaint.
What kind of idiot coach runs up such a score? pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn
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He didn't run up the score. The offense had the ball a whopping 7 minutes out of 48.
Their scoring drives
A -- Jess Anders 55-yard pass from Luke Bishop (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Luke Bishop 13-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Jess Anders 3-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Ryan Newsome 73-yard punt return (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Ryan Newsome 37-yard punt return (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Ryan Newsome 11-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Jess Anders 11-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Jess Anders 59-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Ryan Newsome 44-yard pass from Luke Bishop (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Hershel Gardner 22-yard fumble return (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Daythan Davis 6-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Isiah Mallory 4-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
A -- Quanel Williams 45-yard run (Chance Nevarez kick) .
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/1153/in...#storylink=cpy If you look at the link you can see that no one player carried the ball more than 7 times and most carried it less than 5. Also they only threw 6 passes
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The coaches didn't run up the score. I believe the winning team had less than 8 minutes of possession in the game. They had 1 player that scored 4 TDs from scrimmage on 4 total touches. They had another score on 2 punt returns and yet another score on the only kickoff.
Unless you feel it is less humiliating to kneel the ball every snap once a team reaches a certain score differential, the coaches did what they could. And I might add, the coaches on the losing team have said the same. This issue has blown up because of the complaint filed (which has already been investigated and dismissed) and the media attention.
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Curious,
You'd do well to do your due dilligence and investigate things jumping to conclusions.
Aledo ran only 32 plays all night to Western Hills 63. Clock ran entire 4th quarter.
Aledo is just a superior team in a lousy district.
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I think the running clock started in the 2nd quarter -- 2nd half for sure -- and didn't stop for timeouts or anything in the 4th.
Texas does, however, need a mercy rule. There have been a lot of 50 and 60 point differential games this year. Teams have scored 60, 70, and even 80 on an almost weekly basis.
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First, I (we) do not have the benefit of the box score of this "game".
To all you who can defend such a ridiculous debacle, I can only say this: After I've played everyone, and the score is +40 points, I'm punting the ball back to the weaker team. It had to obvious to everyone that there was no chance for Western Hills to come back; so why not shorten the periods - beginning in the first half - when the score was already lopsided?
BFD that the "clock ran in the entire 4th quarter". Why not the entire second half?
All that said, I also feel that the "bullying complaint" was equally ridiculous.
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I think the running clock started in the 2nd quarter -- 2nd half for sure -- and didn't stop for timeouts or anything in the 4th.
Texas does, however, need a mercy rule. There have been a lot of 50 and 60 point differential games this year. Teams have scored 60, 70, and even 80 on an almost weekly basis.
You got in just ahead of me Joe. I'm glad they started the clock earlier; and hope these lopsided scores lead not only to a "mercy rule"; but to better scheduling.
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Texas does, however, need a mercy rule. There have been a lot of 50 and 60 point differential games this year. Teams have scored 60, 70, and even 80 on an almost weekly basis.
AR has a mercy rule and that has not stopped multiple 70-0, 70-35, etc. games from occurring this year, and years past. I'm all for letting the subs play, but at what point does an honest 'Mercy' rule have to be considered?
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First, I (we) do not have the benefit of the box score of this "game".
I found it with a Google search.
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AR has a mercy rule and that has not stopped multiple 70-0, 70-35, etc. games from occurring this year, and years past. I'm all for letting the subs play, but at what point does an honest 'Mercy' rule have to be considered?
When he was at Louisville, I vividly remember Lee Corso waiving a white flag of surrender in a 69-19 blowout many, many years ago.
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There have been scores like that in the past and I'm sure that this school has seen their share before. In fact, my high school was beat by Dallas Lincoln 90-0 one year and that's 1 point less but now there's an uproar? I'm glad that 6 man teams don't have that issue.
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I had a 72-14 game early in the season. The winning coach had already pulled his starters. We even asked him jokingly, "When are you going to put in the 'scrubs' " His response was, "these are my scrubs." He was calling plays that he said have always failed, but yet this time they were scoring. He came up to me and told us, the officials, to not let his team score again because his team, "has to be holding or something in there." That's the first time I have ever been told that. That went against the integrity that we have and we did not flag them. If they score they score and we wasn't going to play a part in stopping the with a bogus flag. I have talked with losing coaches about this before and they feel more humiliated when teams are giving them punts on third downs or taking knees each play. They'd much rather the other team not feel sorry for them and just take the thrashing. They know that next year it may be just the opposite.
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To all you who can defend such a ridiculous debacle, I can only say this: After I've played everyone, and the score is +40 points, I'm punting the ball back to the weaker team. It had to obvious to everyone that there was no chance for Western Hills to come back; so why not shorten the periods - beginning in the first half - when the score was already lopsided?
All that said, I also feel that the "bullying complaint" was equally ridiculous.
I agree with curious. No matter if there is a mercy rule or not, the coach can do things that can sow down the scoring without affecting the moral of his team. Likewise, if I am up by 40+ in the second half, I am punting the ball on 1st down and allowing more of my players to play defense. Heck, my players love playing defense so that is like a reward to them. Now if we score 91 points off of interceptions or fumbles, I probably couldn't do anything there. The coach ran up the score...or he allowed the score to be run up. No difference.
The bullying claim is stupid too.
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What is stupid and demeaning is punting the ball on 1st down. That is pretty close to taunting if you ask me. All the kids on the winning team work hard day after day and they deserve just as much a chance to play as everyone else. And when they are in there they need to play hard. What happens happens. It is not Aldo's fault the UIL put them in the District they did and I suspect if they had their druthers they would druther have been in a different district but it is what it is. Maybe something like this will cause the UIL folks to go ahead and admit the reality that there are some teams who are dominating year after year and take that into account (where possible) when they form the Districts.
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Let's be honest: coaches have a fear that if they dial down ANY on the throttle, that will have future negative consequences. Like in playoff games. I think much of that is overstated; not illegitimate, but overstated. I also think that things like not running out of bounds or putting 57 in to run dive plays for the sake of the other team is a little on the silly side. There's nothing wrong with doing either of these things -- it doesn't risk the kids getting hurt for not going full speed and its not any more demeaning than winning by a huge score.
However, if I were in a position where a weak district might hurt my team's preparation for a playoff game my first priority would be to make sure my team is prepared for any future game. If Aledo had run out of bounds a lot (or whatever -- concentrated on keeping the score down by whatever means) and later lost in the first round of the playoffs, you know the coach would have hell to pay.
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What is stupid and demeaning is punting the ball on 1st down. That is pretty close to taunting if you ask me. All the kids on the winning team work hard day after day and they deserve just as much a chance to play as everyone else. And when they are in there they need to play hard. What happens happens. It is not Aldo's fault the UIL put them in the District they did and I suspect if they had their druthers they would druther have been in a different district but it is what it is. Maybe something like this will cause the UIL folks to go ahead and admit the reality that there are some teams who are dominating year after year and take that into account (where possible) when they form the Districts.
You are 100% correct. How can you punt on first down. You have you third stinger in, and you run up the middle. It is not Aledo's fault that the other school cannot stop them. And I understand that the Aledo coach begged the UIL not to put them into that District - and warned them that this stuff would happen. He said putting him in that District would be a disservice to his kids because it would not prepare them for the playoffs because his starters would never play even a half of football.
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I pulled all of the scores from this past Friday night and did a little analysis.
highest winning scored - 88
average winning score - 42.7
highest losing score - 56
average losing score - 14.9
maximum point differential - 73
average point differential - 27.8
number of game with differential >45 - 56 or 16.8%
What this tells me is that of the 333 games I looked at, only 16.8% would have ended early with a 45 point mercy rule (or a "wind the clock" mercy rule).
That's really a low percentage of games that need to move along to try to get over. The TAPPS mercy rule would work great for UIL. There's no reason to not get the clock rolling in a game with a differential of 45 or more in the second half. Nothing good comes from allowing a team to get beat 91 to nothing. I'm sure the guys in that game were running the clock, but they should have never stopped it, not even after scores. Second half should have been 24 minutes (maybe it was). I had a 84 to 0 game a few years back and we did everything we could to keep the clock running and the winning coach apologized to me several times but the other team had just quit.
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^flag
Had a very classy 3A Head Coach tell me way back in the early 80's, when I was a "puppy" Referee, that whenever his team reached a 50 point differential over his opponent, "Do not let us score under any circumstances. Call anything you want, but do not let us score!"
Wish that there were more head coaches out there like him!
Thanks, Coach H! z^
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JUCO game Saturday...51-7 at the end of 1. 72-7 at the end of 2. 86-7 final score. Team B punted 4 times in the first 10 minutes of the game and Team A returned it for a TD 4 times. After that, all punt returns by A were fair caught. It wasn't bullying! It was a top ranked team against a really bad team! The 2nd half lasted 36 minutes...the 4th quarter lasted 16 minutes! The clock ran through all time outs by agreement of both coaches. Is a mercy rule needed? I'm not sure...but I know that nobody was hurt by the running clock!
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In the past 3 years of the 38 games I worked only 3 of them have been within 28 points of each other. Needless to say I am the blowout master.
During my stellar high school playing career I only got to play during blowouts. Do you know how many passes got thrown when I was in the game...zero. I still practiced and dressed out during those games, and now when I get in you expect me to go easy on the other team???? Forget you. This game is still about kids. If I was a coach and a referee asked me to run the clock I would say sure as soon as number 14's mother says to run it.
The true scrub backups get maybe 20 plays their entire HS career to actually play under the lights. So on top of everything else you are going to have them run plays besides what they have been practicing at for the past 4 years???
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JUCO game Saturday...51-7 at the end of 1. 72-7 at the end of 2. 86-7 final score. Team B punted 4 times in the first 10 minutes of the game and Team A returned it for a TD 4 times. After that, all punt returns by A were fair caught. It wasn't bullying! It was a top ranked team against a really bad team! The 2nd half lasted 36 minutes...the 4th quarter lasted 16 minutes! The clock ran through all time outs by agreement of both coaches. Is a mercy rule needed? I'm not sure...but I know that nobody was hurt by the running clock!
Yea, I thought I was a B instead of an R because I was signaling so many TD's
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JUCO game Saturday...51-7 at the end of 1. 72-7 at the end of 2. 86-7 final score. Team B punted 4 times in the first 10 minutes of the game and Team A returned it for a TD 4 times. After that, all punt returns by A were fair caught. It wasn't bullying! It was a top ranked team against a really bad team! The 2nd half lasted 36 minutes...the 4th quarter lasted 16 minutes! The clock ran through all time outs by agreement of both coaches. Is a mercy rule needed? I'm not sure...but I know that nobody was hurt by the running clock!
I remember these games in JUCO. We did one when it was frigid and sleeting outside. High ranked team against a really bad one. The really bad coach told us after run run the %^&(^ clock and the other coach was on board. We had a 35 minute second half. Only because we had bad weather. The other times we were not as lucky.
I agree and think UIL would benefit with the TAPPS mercy rule. I have been on really rough 11 man games where the team ahead was doing what they could not to score yet it still happened.
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Worked a varsity game this past week...1st play after opening kickoff..Team A touchdown....the team B coach was asking for a running clock as I was running past him headed for the end zone!!!!
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The game I had early in the year, the team that was getting beat 72 to 14 had also put in their scrubs and those kids were having fun and even stated so several times. They could care less that they were getting throttled on the score board, they were just enjoying every minute of playing time that could get, even in defeat.
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Worked a varsity game this past week...1st play after opening kickoff..Team A touchdown....the team B coach was asking for a running clock as I was running past him headed for the end zone!!!!
Had about the same thing happen last year except it was after 2 1-play drives that ended in TDs. That game only ended up 49-0 and the winner deferred but chose to kick in the second half.
Doc's analysis is eye opening. UIL needs to do a better job of district and class alignment. A strict daily attendance classification may no longer be practical. Fort Worth schools may have a 4A enrollment number but also might only have 25 total football players -- no JV and certainly no Freshman teams. Other schools not too far away have the numbers for 3 JV and 3 Freshman teams. That's AND.
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UIL needs to do a better job of district and class alignment. A strict daily attendance classification may no longer be practical. Fort Worth schools may have a 4A enrollment number but also might only have 25 total football players -- no JV and certainly no Freshman teams. Other schools not too far away have the numbers for 3 JV and 3 Freshman teams. That's AND.
That problem is not unique to the state of Texas.
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It is a tough enough job for them to juggle the travel distance issues when forming the Districts. And on the field success is a cyclical thing. A school might be tough one year and suck 2 years later so trying to use a "power rating" is a recipe for disaster. No need for all that. Just make the Districts like they normally do and put in a Mercy Rule that provides for a running clock. (Not to the extent Doc wants, but a clock that runs after out of bounds plays, incomplete passes and 1st downs).
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We do not need a "mercy rule", IMHO,!
In all of the cases noted above, we as officials and they as coaches did the right thing and let the game continue,albeit with a quick or running clock.
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The reason a "clock mechanic adjustment" rule would be beneficial is that it would eliminate any confusion, discussion, disagreement, argument, consternation, or debate between players, coaches, officials, administrators, and fans about when and how the clock would be handled after the score reached a differential of X that would be consistent from crew to crew and chapter to chapter across the state. Period.
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agree with fencewire z^
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Does Texas have the running clock rule? Here in Michigan when I was coaching (and it may have changed), if the score differential was 35 points, the clock only stopped for TIPS-Timeouts, Injuries, Penalties, Scores. Basically the same timing rules as Arena Football. When it hit 40 points (and again, it may have changed) then the clock didn't stop for anything other than officials' timeouts.
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Does Texas have the running clock rule? Here in Michigan when I was coaching (and it may have changed), if the score differential was 35 points, the clock only stopped for TIPS-Timeouts, Injuries, Penalties, Scores. Basically the same timing rules as Arena Football. When it hit 40 points (and again, it may have changed) then the clock didn't stop for anything other than officials' timeouts.
Not in UIL games. In TAPPS 11 man games there is.
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Does Texas have the running clock rule? Here in Michigan when I was coaching (and it may have changed), if the score differential was 35 points, the clock only stopped for TIPS-Timeouts, Injuries, Penalties, Scores. Basically the same timing rules as Arena Football. When it hit 40 points (and again, it may have changed) then the clock didn't stop for anything other than officials' timeouts
^flag
In several UIL districts, the AD's will not hesitate to discreetly ask the R to run the clock at some given point in time, whenever the score is getting out of hand. Speeds up the game and greatly reduces the liklihood of fights breaking out! z^
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I don't like the idea of a 40 second clock or a mercy rule. Sometimes, a coach will get down 21 and ask that the clock be milked along and I'm usually happy to oblige him...especially in sub-varsity. If we had a 40 point rule, I know there would be great gnashing of teeth by one team or the other. If you do it discreetly, most coaches don't even know you are doing it. They don't pay that much attention to us...especially in a game where the outcome is not in question. A lot of times, we switch out balls in the 4th quarter regularly to delay the start of the 25 second clock. If the winning coach doesn't pick up on it fairly quickly, my wings will tell the coach to pay attention to the pace. A 40 second clock takes that out of our hands.
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I don't like the idea of a 40 second clock or a mercy rule. Sometimes, a coach will get down 21 and ask that the clock be milked along and I'm usually happy to oblige him...especially in sub-varsity. If we had a 40 point rule, I know there would be great gnashing of teeth by one team or the other. If you do it discreetly, most coaches don't even know you are doing it. They don't pay that much attention to us...especially in a game where the outcome is not in question. A lot of times, we switch out balls in the 4th quarter regularly to delay the start of the 25 second clock. If the winning coach doesn't pick up on it fairly quickly, my wings will tell the coach to pay attention to the pace. A 40 second clock takes that out of our hands.
No reason to swap out balls, just delay the ready when the clock is running. I always wait at least 15 seconds from the dead ball whistle to the ready if the team is not up at the line wanting to hurry up. I very few delays of game that way and it keeps the clock moving if teams are taking the full 40 seconds.