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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: Rulesman on February 12, 2014, 04:53:11 PM
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Link to Committee Proposals (http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/football-rules-committee-slightly-adjusts-targeting-rule-defensive)
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I dont know about this defense sub one.
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I really like the substitution rule. Too often you see defensive players too tired to even stand near the end of a fast drive putting them at a great risk of injury. Giving them a brief window in order to substitute without a concern that the offense will snap the ball can only help make sure the defensive players stay safe. It is also easy to officiate as there is no subjectivity to when they are allowed to snap the ball.
However, it does seem to defeat the reason behind adding an 8th official in the Big 12 last year as the main purpose was to assist with spotting the ball faster.
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If the offense rarely snaps the ball before thirty seconds left o. The play clock, why have a special rule to allow a def. sub in the first ten seconds?
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If the offense rarely snaps the ball before thirty seconds left o. The play clock, why have a special rule to allow a def. sub in the first ten seconds?
That was my thinking as well. I watch lots of video and it is rare for a team to snap that fast. Even in a hurry up situation where they are not even calling a play at the line, just lining up and snapping, it usually takes more than 10 seconds from previous dead ball to pull it of.
I assume , like always, the devil is in the details because there has to be something written in there that would prevent this:
Team A needs a score to tie or win the game and there are 15 seconds left in the game. They have no timeouts left. , Team A's 2d down play ends inbounds with 10 seconds left on game clock (running)and they are hustling to get to line to either spike it or run another play. Team B starts subbing so A is prevented from snapping and clock runs out. We can't have that.
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I'd say I'm against the defensive sub rule, but I'm glad to see the revision to the targeting rule. I think another thing to keep in mind on that subject would be to consider the situations like the Notre Dame/Pitt incident where the ball carrier was equally at fault for the helmet-to-helmet contact, where the QB ducked his head forward in the direction of the ND player.
I'm still against the ejection, but at least this rule change fixes the major bug, where even in the case of the Navy/Middle Tennessee, where even though it was clearly a clean hit (Even though in that game it somehow wasn't overturned), at least the offensive team won't be getting a cheap 15 yards.
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Mike, pretty certain the proposal reads that the new defensive sub rule would not be in effect during the last two minutes of each half.
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I know this is all conjecture until the change becomes "official" BUT I am trying to see how - "This part of the rule will remain in place in scenarios where the play clock starts at 25 seconds" - comes into play. Surely it can't mean that the offense cannot snap the ball until 13 seconds on the play clock! Maybe I am a little slow this morning.
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Red, judging from that statement's placement in the release, I believe they were referring to the old rule that says if the offense is subbing then the D gets an opportunity to sub if they desire and act promptly. I could be wrong but think they are simply emphasizing that the existing rule stays in place if the play clock is set to 25.
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In games where instant replay is not in use, the committee recommended an option to permit on-field officials to review targeting calls during halftime that were made during the first half. This is a permissive rule by conference policy or mutual consent of the teams and is the responsibility of the home team to provide the parameters for the use of video. The review must be conducted by the referee in the officials’ locker room.
Well, if you're on ESPN3 (or similar) you might have some looks. If not, are you dependent on the home team's video? If the visiting team member is the one removed, will the home team do it's 'best' to provide you with video to review?
Methinks I hear a can opener...
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B Subs.
Maybe I'm missing something.
A cannot snap the ball until 29 sec remain on the play clock. - ok.
A particular team out west wearing green & yellow gets the ball snapped quicker than anyone I'm aware of - and it takes them like 16 sec to get it snapped.
Am I missing something?
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I think the reason behind having the 10 second period for defensive substitution is that while most snaps occur after that period, many teams at least line up their offense before that period and since the defense cannot rely on the fact that they will not snap the ball before 29 on the play clock they don't feel they can substitute. This is especially for those big boys up front. If most snaps occur after 29 on the clock then this change shouldn't be too much of a problem for most teams and might protect some exhausted defensive lineman from getting rolled up and hurt when he can barely stand much less rush the passer.
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I would hope the existing rule is still always in effect. If Team A subs later in the play clock, Team B still should have an opportunity to match up. The new rule should be an additional restriction on Team A.
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A particular team out west wearing green & yellow gets the ball snapped quicker than anyone I'm aware of - and it takes them like 16 sec to get it snapped.
Am I missing something?
The NFL has the tuck rule. Maybe the NCAA should dub this the duck rule. pi1eOn
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Some more on the rule: ( there is an exception in last 2 minutes)
http://msn.foxsports.com/college-football/story/bielema-saban-supported-slow-down-rule-proposal1-021314
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I for one do not see how this is a player safety issue.
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As TNofficial pointed out earlier, the safety issue is the ability to replace an exhausted defender as that player may be more prone to incurring an injury. This may or may not be a legitimate argument. I'm quite confident that the true motivation for those coaches supporting it is their concern that the exhausted player won't be able to defend as well as the fresh legs they want to send in as subs.
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Red, judging from that statement's placement in the release, I believe they were referring to the old rule that says if the offense is subbing then the D gets an opportunity to sub if they desire and act promptly. I could be wrong but think they are simply emphasizing that the existing rule stays in place if the play clock is set to 25.
Jeff, That does make sense!
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As TNofficial pointed out earlier, the safety issue is the ability to replace an exhausted defender as that player may be more prone to incurring an injury. This may or may not be a legitimate argument. I'm quite confident that the true motivation for those coaches supporting it is their concern that the exhausted player won't be able to defend as well as the fresh legs they want to send in as subs.
I don't buy into the belief that an exhausted player is more likely to be injured so I don't see exhaustion as a safety issue. Exhaustion is a player effectiveness issue. To wear out and wear down your opponent is part of the game and why some teams train harder than others. I have no problem with allowing the defense to match up when offensive substitutions are made but this is just an attempt to take away a tactical advantage that some teams are able to use in short bursts. I say shorts bursts because no team that I have seen is capable of snapping it with more than 29 on the play clock on a consistent basis for more than a few plays in a row. Also, if it is about exhaustion or even safety then why are they proposing to apply it in the first 2 minutes of the game but not the last 2 minutes?
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I know this is all conjecture until the change becomes "official" BUT I am trying to see how - "This part of the rule will remain in place in scenarios where the play clock starts at 25 seconds" - comes into play. Surely it can't mean that the offense cannot snap the ball until 13 seconds on the play clock! Maybe I am a little slow this morning.
I don't think the proposed rule is intended to be used with a 25 sec. play clock. The 25 sec. clock is used after "administrative stoppages", e.g. time outs, kicks, measurements, change of possession, processing fouls, etc. There is usually plenty of time prior to the R marking the ball RFP in these situations. The defense should easily be able to sub before the 25 sec. clock starts.
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I don't buy into the belief that an exhausted player is more likely to be injured so I don't see exhaustion as a safety issue. Exhaustion is a player effectiveness issue. To wear out and wear down your opponent is part of the game and why some teams train harder than others. I have no problem with allowing the defense to match up when offensive substitutions are made but this is just an attempt to take away a tactical advantage that some teams are able to use in short bursts. I say shorts bursts because no team that I have seen is capable of snapping it with more than 29 on the play clock on a consistent basis for more than a few plays in a row. Also, if it is about exhaustion or even safety then why are they proposing to apply it in the first 2 minutes of the game but not the last 2 minutes?
Next rule to come will be to require Team A to sub whenever B subs during that 10 secs. We wouldn't want to A to be more exhausted than the Team B players who just subbed in.
Is the Referee going to blow his whistle so Team A will know that ball is ready for play after the 10 secs?
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Is the Referee going to blow his whistle so Team A will know that ball is ready for play after the 10 secs?
With the 40 second clock running, the ball is actually RFP as soon as it is set down. It just can't be snapped for those first 10 seconds. Go figure.
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Stupid rule change!!!! hEaDbAnG
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It's about time that there is a rule change that favors B. We have been swinging in the favor of A for a long time now. It does make the game harder to officiate, but that is really not a consideration.
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The opponents of the change seem to be taking 2 tacks to approach this:
1 - The rule really does not affect safety and therefore should not have been allowed to be made in an "off year" since only safety-related changes are "supposed to be made" in off- years (yeah, right)
2 - The change was made because of the undue influence of a "legend" coach and that is not how the committee is supposed to work
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2014/02/13/Putting-the-Brakes-on-the-Blur?utm_source=contentsharing&utm_medium=linkexchange&utm_term=postion5&utm_content=Putting-the-Brakes-on-the-Blur&utm_campaign=foxnews
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More on unhappy coaches:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140213/rule-change-no-huddle-ncaa/ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140213/rule-change-no-huddle-ncaa/)
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With the 40 second clock running, the ball is actually RFP as soon as it is set down. It just can't be snapped for those first 10 seconds. Go figure.
It appears Rogers supports this change. If it doesn't pass maybe we get a direction to make sure we are all set before the umpire backs away from the ball. Maybe that process takes around 9-10 seconds. The umpire ultimately controls the pace and 10 seconds is pretty quick. I also wonder if some of these coaches opposing it realize it wouldn't affect them that much.
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I don't think RR is all that fired up about this 10 sec change. His comments suggest he thinks it is a whole lot about nothing. That being said, he will not be the 1st editor who had to implement something the Committee wanted but that he did not think warranted inclusion. I would not be surprised if the proponents can't come up with some empirical safety-related "proof" that the change was needed that the PROP disallows it.
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As TNofficial pointed out earlier, the safety issue is the ability to replace an exhausted defender as that player may be more prone to incurring an injury. This may or may not be a legitimate argument. I'm quite confident that the true motivation for those coaches supporting it is their concern that the exhausted player won't be able to defend as well as the fresh legs they want to send in as subs.
This rule is mainly referring to defensive linemen. Yet the offensive linemen are out there every play and it's not a safety issue... makes no sense to me.
Plus, if the offense subs, the defense can match up. The rule doesn't need changed.
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I do not believe this is mainly referring to linemen. The issue here is that the offense can totally prevent the defense from subbing and they do not even have to rush. All A has to do is go to the line and delay snapping the ball without subbing. This effectively stops B from subbing because they could easily get caught with 12 on the field during the process or have to play with 10 if A snaps the ball in the middle of the substitution. A can stop B from subbing without actually snapping the ball quicker just by not subbing themselves. This seems unfair.
I read the article, and I do not agree that it is a tenant of football that A snaps the B has to react. Not so long ago, NCAA had a ready whistle like NFHS and neither side could snap until the R blew the RFP. The defense could freely sub prior to the RFP.
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The defense was still limited in subbing even with the RFP. Once a possession had started, R's would not wait for B to finish subbing before blowing the RFP.
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If B is that tired and needs to get a sub there is a thing called a TIMEOUT they can always use. They are allowed 3 a half, maybe get the big fatties upfront in shape as well. Quit recruiting guys that way over 320 pounds.
I ref at the D-III level and my umpire and I try to have the ball set by 32 seconds.
Play gets over have to get the spot, then get the ball relayed in. I would like to know what the average time is getting the ball set for the next play. I would be amazed if its quicker than 35 seconds on the clock. I feel we bust our bet to hit 30-32 seconds.
So in reality the same speed of offenses is going to be kept.
Maybe the defense coaches need to have subs ready right after the play and get them in as fast as they can.
I do not think this is play safety at all. Like the second article states Alabama and Arkansas are old school teams that run some of the fewest plays per game and they don't like they are getting beat
I hope the committee has balls to stand up and say No its not going to change
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I must be missing something. You take 32 seconds from the ball is dead until you have spotted the ball? Surely not, but that's how I read what you wrote.
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Would seem to be kind of slow. We average 13-16 seconds in HS with a five man crew and 8 year old ball boys.
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I read it to mean 32 seconds remaining on a 40 second play clock.
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That makes sense.
Should have figured that one out on my own, really couldn't have been anything else. :)
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Yes i am sorry our goal is to have the ball spotted with 32 seconds to go on the play clock
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Yes i am sorry our goal is to have the ball spotted with 32 seconds to go on the play clock
My goal is 28-32 and that probably happens 95% of the time. Anything beyond that is usually due to addressing some kind of extra-curricular or a ball boy delay. I try to look most of the time and especially if it seems like we've had an extra delay and need to reset the play clock. In the past 3 years I think we've only done that once.
I think we can be in too much of a hurry. We still have to dead ball officiate and if our only goal is to get the ball spotted we are going to miss something. I really learned this when I worked as a deep wing, but it applies as umpire as well.
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Definitely something we need to reinforce with our guys in Texas as we transition to this next season. It would be easy to get so focused on getting the ball spotted that we neglect things we should be looking at.
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With the 40 second clock running, the ball is actually RFP as soon as it is set down. It just can't be snapped for those first 10 seconds. Go figure.
^flag
The only feasible mechanic that I could possibly envision regarding this would be for the U to place the ball down at the LOS spot, and then to stand over the ball, until such time that the "shot clock" hits 29, and then to quickly get himself out of there before the ball is snapped. Ultimately meaning that we're going to need faster Umpires! z^
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^flag
The only feasible mechanic that I could possibly envision regarding this would be for the U to place the ball down at the LOS spot, and then to stand over the ball, until such time that the "shot clock" hits 29, and then to quickly get himself out of there before the ball is snapped. Ultimately meaning that we're going to need faster Umpires! z^
We're "quicker" not faster!
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I don't envision that degree of interference with the snap. It should be sufficient to let them in know in pregame there will be times when they cannot snap until play clock gets to 29. In those times, you will verbally alert them (snapper and QB) and use a hand signal to hold them up. Drop it at 29. If they ignore and snap, they get a delay of game penalty.
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Just because a rule change is recommended doesn't mean it will pass...
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/rules-chair-rule-safety-issue-22571107
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The only feasible mechanic that I could possibly envision regarding this would be for the U to place the ball down at the LOS spot, and then to stand over the ball, until such time that the "shot clock" hits 29, and then to quickly get himself out of there before the ball is snapped. Ultimately meaning that we're going to need faster Umpires!
No U mechanic is necessary. Players can simply check the play clock to determine whether they can legally snap, and if they screw up, the B blows and throws.
The B's job gets a little harder - now he has to keep an eye on the play clock while also determining his key. Perhaps this call could go to the S or F, since they can find their key much more easily, almost instantaneously.
The hard part for the U is the rule we already have, when Team A substitutes and then the U *does* have to move and communicate that they're not allowed to snap.
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More on the tabling of the 10 second slowdown
http://archive.ksdk.com/usatoday/sports/6036617/Rules-Committee-drops-slow-down-proposal-?usatref=sportsmod