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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: jj06878 on June 06, 2014, 06:44:58 AM
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Our chapter just did its picks and assignments. 514 games--46 crews. Should come out to every crew having 11 games and a full schedule right??? There are multiple crews with more than one open Friday!!
How many other chapters around the state allow select crews to work up to 3 games in one week. You know that no matter how good these guys THINK they are, come Sat they aren't near as sharp as they need to be.
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welcome to the world of cronyism. it is just as blatant in arkansas except its in the playoffs and not scheduling even though there is some in there also.
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Time to complain about the Picks again.
The best thing about the Picks is when a coach complains to the president or Executive Secretary the response is quite easy. " Coach you picked them, if you dont like the way they worked dont pick them next year"
I do a lot of upper level data analysis at my job. I have had a lot of quantitative and qualitative statistics classes. I really doubt that anyone in the state has looked at the (Houston) picks more then I have to try and figure out why coaches pick who they pick. In 9 years of really examining, interviewing, and surveying here is my conclusion:
A coach is going to go with the Devil he knows over the Devil he does not know.
Now if you want to debate the methods that a white hat gets to KNOW a coach then that is a different topic.
Here are some of my conclusions:
There is zero correlation between working scrimmages and getting picked (especially in the Fall).
There is zero correlation between working sub varsity and getting picked
I dont have as strong of a data set to compare it against but the correlation between 7 on 7 and getting picked is pretty low
The simple fact of the matter is no one in the state has surveyed coaches about why they picked who they pick. The local chapters love spreading myths about "working sub varsity games will get you known by the coaches" "coaches like it when the crew is clean shaven", "you need to wear a sport coat to games to impress coaches", "coaches scouting in the stands will report back to the head coach who they like". It is all Bull Crap. When someone mentions one of these myths ask them how they came to that conclusion. Who was their control group? Was it a 6A coach or a 3A coach? They will not have a clue.
With all of that being said I should get picked for 16 games this year.
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A coach is going to go with the Devil he knows over the Devil he does not know.
>Absolutely spot-on true!
Now if you want to debate the methods that a white hat gets to KNOW a coach then that is a different topic.
>Sometimes just meeting a coach outside of the football officiating arena is all it takes. I've come across some at events, track meets, basketball games, etc, and just said hello and introduced myself and had small talk. That's all it takes sometimes, for the coach to see, know and now trust you. Just a word of warning, don't ever even bring up the topic of working games. All it takes is for one person to misinterpret something and they think someone has solicited.
There is zero correlation between working scrimmages and getting picked (especially in the Fall).
There is zero correlation between working sub varsity and getting picked
I dont have as strong of a data set to compare it against but the correlation between 7 on 7 and getting picked is pretty low
>None of those can help you, and in fact, might hurt you more than help. Coaches are going to remember someone screwing up a lot more than someone that does a good job, since you should go unnoticed anyway, right? Working for the big schools in sv where you want varsity is usually just a bad idea.
The simple fact of the matter is no one in the state has surveyed coaches about why they picked who they pick. The local chapters love spreading myths about "working sub varsity games will get you known by the coaches" "coaches like it when the crew is clean shaven", "you need to wear a sport coat to games to impress coaches", "coaches scouting in the stands will report back to the head coach who they like". It is all Bull Crap. When someone mentions one of these myths ask them how they came to that conclusion. Who was their control group? Was it a 6A coach or a 3A coach? They will not have a clue.
>sv games can and will get you in trouble. Clean shaven, who cares in today's society. Sport coat? Really? Jeans and nice shirt and tennis shoes is just fine; coaches aren't going to comment about your cool jacket. Coaches scouting? Pleeeeeze. I agree with you. Learning the rules, acting professionally on the field and hustling go a long way.
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There is zero correlation between working sub varsity and getting picked
This isn't true. Its just that it takes longer than a few times and you have to be places where the head coach comes out. However, I know crews that have done this consistently over a 10 year or longer period and it has paid dividends. Its impossible to know exactly how much it affected selections but it didn't hurt. You said correlation so your statement is false. Causation, of course, is different.
I'm sorry but if you're impatient, officiating is probably not for you.
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If you want games come join my chapter. We don't let the coaches pick.
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This isn't true. Its just that it takes longer than a few times and you have to be places where the head coach comes out. However, I know crews that have done this consistently over a 10 year or longer period and it has paid dividends. Its impossible to know exactly how much it affected selections but it didn't hurt. You said correlation so your statement is false. Causation, of course, is different.
I'm sorry but if you're impatient, officiating is probably not for you.
My 27th year. Been around a while.
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Here's the kicker... when crews are getting picked and assigned the same week to three games and there are crews that are open... its not right.
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This year might be an odd mix of crews. A school checked in to see if their schedule could be covered. And the answer has been don't think so from several chapters. Travel is a large part of the problem, but another part is more seasoned officials don't want the mileage or can't get off work. This may bring officials from even farther away and the problem gets bigger.
Then the chapter that has 3 or 4 officials not working and the reluctance to work split crews with the 1 or 2 officials 90 miles over. Rather than have a working relationship, both chapters turn down games and the shortage keeps being a bigger problem.
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Our chapter just did its picks and assignments. 514 games--46 crews. Should come out to every crew having 11 games and a full schedule right??? There are multiple crews with more than one open Friday!!
How many other chapters around the state allow select crews to work up to 3 games in one week. You know that no matter how good these guys THINK they are, come Sat they aren't near as sharp as they need to be.
Every crew should have 11 games? Eventhough I don't think the picks are fair, I also don't think every crew should have 11 games. Some crews received 3. This was done out of necessity not because they were good. Not every crew should be working every Friday night. Just my opinion. I was fortunate enough to receive 13.
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Next evolution of this discussion: What can the local chapter do to make sure that schools diversify their selections? What information should a chapter provide the coaches to help them make an educated decision? :sTiR:
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Next evolution of this discussion: What can the local chapter do to make sure that schools diversify their selections? What information should a chapter provide the coaches to help them make an educated decision? :sTiR:
Just wondering....why should the Chapters make sure the Coaches diversify their selections? Isn't that why Chapters went to the Crew draft system? Coaches wanted more say and the Chapters gave it to them. Giving Crews all the same number of games is like playing a game and not keeping score and then giving everyone a medal afterwards.
As I've told many young Crew Chiefs over the years if you want to get more games....get better. Don't pick your buddies to be on your Crew, pick the best Officials you can find and they will become your buddy.
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Quality of officiating is not always reflected in the number of games for which a crew is selected.
One thing that I think is very important, limit the number of games any one official or any one crew can officiate in one week at the varsity level to 3. That means your crew will get a Friday, and then either a Thursday or Saturday. This is not so much for equity of quantity of games, but more because a crew working their second game of the week is much, much fresher than a crew working their third game of he week; it is really for the players and teams, not for any semblance of equity.
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Quality of officiating is not always reflected in the number of games for which a crew is selected.
One thing that I think is very important, limit the number of games any one official or any one crew can officiate in one week at the varsity level to 3. That means your crew will get a Friday, and then either a Thursday or Saturday. This is not so much for equity of quantity of games, but more because a crew working their second game of the week is much, much fresher than a crew working their third game of he week; it is really for the players and teams, not for any semblance of equity.
Doc, I agree on the limit. In Dallas, a Crew can only work 2 games per weekend. Additionally they can work a team a maximum of 3 games per season (no more than 2 at home).
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These guys have already hit the nail on the head.
If you want to get more games than you are currently getting, or "better" games than you are currently getting there are a few things you can do.
- Get chapter bylaws passed that will make it more "equitable"
- Get chapter bylaws passed that will make others "ineligible"
- Get better
In regards to #1, it really depends on the crew, you could have a group of guys in their 40's they all run 5K's daily, are in great shape, etc... Theoretically they could be just as fresh on day 3 as day 1, but that group would be the exception and not the rule. So "limiting" to two games per week probably wouldn't be a horrendous idea plus I would guess that the majority aren't doing 3 games per week and that would be something that would more easily pass through the chapter.
As far as 2 goes, good luck with that, we have groups within our chapter that have sought to make meetings almost mandatory for each week with no excused absences to be playoff "eligible". This group is all retired and none of them travel for work or have kids in activities, etc. They see their twilight years coming rapidly and they want to make sure that the younger generation is kept in their place and they can dominate what playoffs we get because they will be the only ones that can adhere to their own rules for "eligibility". It isn't flying, but that doesn't mean that they aren't continuing to push their agenda.
#3. Officials, as a group, are typically more conceited in their own ability than many would like to admit, you have to be somewhat to do what we do, but many times the biggest obstacles are found when we look directly in the mirror. The biggest obstacle could be staring right back at you.
like was said by texref, picking your buddies to be on your crew isn't always a good thing, find the best officials available and work with them sometimes they are one and the same, if you all have common goals in officiating. Be with a group that is good and wants to be better. Even if you only get 4 games a season, knock those four games out and then instead of bitching about what you didn't get, be thankful for what you got, and work to get more.
you have a better chance walking across I-35 in austin at rush hour and not getting hit than you do changing coaches minds and perceptions after they have formed. They are enigmas wrapped in riddles, they talk, as much or more than officials do about crews, they are suspicious, they are superstitious, and they are creatures of habit.
if you do a bang up job in your games that you have, the coaches talk, the coaches watch film of other teams, if your crew nitpicks the game to death and you have 20-30 fouls per game, guess what, not many coaches are going to pick you. Every once in a while everyone will have that sort of game, but make those rare, good crews head that sort of night off early and get control of the game. Yeah you may know the rules, but unless things are totally out of hand, and again, we are many times the primary reason games get to that point. Be more willing to throw that UNS for a late hit than you are that marginal hold that had no impact on the play.
The only person that matters on the crew is the White Hat, when it comes to selections. Unless a coach has had a major run in with a certain official, you could mix and match all of the other officials and the coach would still pick the same "crew". Why? Ever had a coach ask "Hey, I don't care about the rest of the crew, as long as Larry is the umpire" However, coaches know that WH is the "head coach" on the crew and they are going to have "like-minded" guys calling with them. Is that fair, no, but nothing is.
Think of the crew as staff at a restaurant, the R is the manager, he walks around, looks like he is busy, occasionally comes over to make an appearance, but really doesn't do a whole lot. The most important guys for keeping things going smoothly are H and L, the waitstaff, if they can keep the customers happy, the whole evening will be productive. The busboy is of course the U, they handle all the dirty work, clean up the crap, are under appreciated and made fun of, but without them the trash piles up and gets out of control, if they keep the trash clean everything runs smoothly. The B, well, of course they are the hostesses, buzzing around looking busy but only really make any significant decisions a few times during the evening, but they stand there and look pretty, and tell people how long they have to wait before they can do anything.
R's and B's are quite similar, however, no one calls and talks to the hostess if they have a problem, they call the manager and depending on how the manager handles any difficult situations, and how the whole group works together, will determine if the customers come back to that restaurant again and if they tell their friends how good a particular restaurant may be.
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Fencewire,
Great ideas and I love the analogy with the restaurant staff. ^good
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One thing that I think is very important, limit the number of games any one official or any one crew can officiate in one week at the varsity level to 3. ..... it is really for the players and teams, not for any semblance of equity.
I thought you wanted to limit it to 2 ? ? ? The coaches are picking. They know the ones they are picking for Saturdays had a Friday. And if they were concerned about "freshness" I guess they could ask if the crew also had a Thursday. They don't ask. And really, if they were concerned about physical ability to work that 3d game don't you think they would be picking the more "athletic" crews. They don't. My conclusion is they don't care. There is something else, some intangible they are looking at, which drives their selection. Do you think Dallas' policy is driven by their desire to provide fresh crews? I doubt it. they likely put it in as a way to be "equitable."
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I would think the chapter would want all the crews working every Friday in order to improve. We all know training and EXPERIENCE make you better. The D-1 crews are the one with all the games. We all listen to the chapter brass talk about mentoring the new guys and getting better as a crew. Having open dates on a Friday does NOTHING to advance these objectives. I guess its all talk until it affects their 3 games a week, all within a few miles of their house!!!!
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Impossible for all crews to work every Friday as there are more crews than games most weeks.
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I thought you wanted to limit it to 2 ? ? ? The coaches are picking. They know the ones they are picking for Saturdays had a Friday. And if they were concerned about "freshness" I guess they could ask if the crew also had a Thursday. They don't ask. And really, if they were concerned about physical ability to work that 3d game don't you think they would be picking the more "athletic" crews. They don't. My conclusion is they don't care. There is something else, some intangible they are looking at, which drives their selection. Do you think Dallas' policy is driven by their desire to provide fresh crews? I doubt it. they likely put it in as a way to be "equitable."
I meant 2, of course.
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The coaches are picking. They know the ones they are picking for Saturdays had a Friday. And if they were concerned about "freshness" I guess they could ask if the crew also had a Thursday. They don't ask. And really, if they were concerned about physical ability to work that 3d game don't you think they would be picking the more "athletic" crews. They don't. My conclusion is they don't care. There is something else, some intangible they are looking at, which drives their selection. Do you think Dallas' policy is driven by their desire to provide fresh crews? I doubt it. they likely put it in as a way to be "equitable."
Since when do we let coaches dictate what we do and what is best for everyone? LOL LOL LOL
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Since when do we let coaches dictate what we do and what is best for everyone? LOL LOL LOL
Do they get to decide rankings for playoff assignments too? In Indiana crews book regular season games directly with the ADs sometimes 5-6 years in advance. But playoffs are assigned and based largely on a coaches' vote.
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Impossible for all crews to work every Friday as there are more crews than games most weeks.
Big chapter problem not a small chapter one.
We used to have a draft and a bunch of crew regualtions around how you could form crews etc. It got to be a real admin pain when we needed to have fill ins from other crews etc because of all these rules we had around who could work what. Most of our coaches started asking us to assign the games. We have done it for two years and had no complaints or requests to go back to draft. We have a good secretary who is pretty fair to everyone. After all coaches follow the UIL scratch guidleines and get them entred he assigns the games. He tracks to make sure you do not see a team more than twice regular season and not back to back.
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Do they get to decide rankings for playoff assignments too? In Indiana crews book regular season games directly with the ADs sometimes 5-6 years in advance. But playoffs are assigned and based largely on a coaches' vote.
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Actually, they pick their officials and mutually agree on them. If they can't pick a crew, they go to the UIL and a chapter is given the assignment to choose a crew from their chapter, and then the coaches agree on who is assigned.
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Impossible for all crews to work every Friday as there are more crews than games most weeks.
Mike, come to west Texas.
Yeah, I know: You did once, and I was grateful to you and TexDoc for the help.
We have one, that's ONE, week that we have enough officials to cover games with a full crew. That's the open date before district starts for some of our local districts.
We have one week when we are 30 guys short, assuming everyone, the entire chapter membership, including rookies, can work. Of course, a few guys are going to be closed due to obligations at work, personal illness, family deaths, etc.
Yes, the Head Shed is aware, & has pledged assistance; however, the schools are going to be responsible to pick up the increased mileage for the imports. Unpleasantness in these days of tight budgets.
Just a reminder that every chapter does NOT have a glut of membership, who are crying for games.
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Don
I know there are many, too many, Chapters where that is the case. I was referring to the situation in Houston (and in a few other Chapters) where there continues to be the issue of how many games a week do you work. It is somewhat ironic that we have the 2 "issues" simultaneously, i.e. part of the state where guys struggle to even get on a varsity field and parts of the state where schools struggle to even get enough guys to cover the games. The "easy" answer of sharing officials is not that easy because of the significant travel distances involved, even if there is reimbursement. Clearly schools need to be more flexible and start playing varsity on Thurs and Sat in some cases. (I know...that then affects the subvarsity situation) Bottom line is there is room for changes in the way every entity connected with the game operates if this is to improve. Chapters need to recruit and retain better, schools need to schedule better, & UIL needs to exercise better administration over the process.
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Don
I know there are many, too many, Chapters where that is the case. I was referring to the situation in Houston (and in a few other Chapters) where there continues to be the issue of how many games a week do you work. It is somewhat ironic that we have the 2 "issues" simultaneously, i.e. part of the state where guys struggle to even get on a varsity field and parts of the state where schools struggle to even get enough guys to cover the games. The "easy" answer of sharing officials is not that easy because of the significant travel distances involved, even if there is reimbursement. Clearly schools need to be more flexible and start playing varsity on Thurs and Sat in some cases. (I know...that then affects the subvarsity situation) Bottom line is there is room for changes in the way every entity connected with the game operates if this is to improve. Chapters need to recruit and retain better, schools need to schedule better, & UIL needs to exercise better administration over the process.
Actually this should be a TASO and local chapter issue only! I don't see where UIL should be involved in telling chapters what to do.
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No but they should be involved in telling the schools what to do and that's what I was talking about.
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:thumbup
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I just want to know if anyone cared about the crews that are getting 3 games a week back when they were barely getting 1 game a week?
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Obviously not many folks in that chapter cared or the practice would have been stopped . But just because something was wrong long ago and never addressed is not any justification for it to continue. That being said, obviously the majority of folks in that chapter are okay with continuing the practice so more power to them. As long a you have a ready supply of officials and coaches are willing to have guys work 3 varsity days in a row it will go on. I would not favor a statewide ban on the practice but if I were in a chapter where the majority wanted to limit it, I would support them.
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I have a friend in Houston who is a great official but stuck on one of those crews that can't get a game while other crews are working 3 games. I don't care how good you are, there is no excuse for that. This will bite them if and when they ever start to realize a shortage of officials and the snubbed officials have either left or don't have the experience necessary to work the big games.
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Obviously not many folks in that chapter cared or the practice would have been stopped . But just because something was wrong long ago and never addressed is not any justification for it to continue. That being said, obviously the majority of folks in that chapter are okay with continuing the practice so more power to them. As long a you have a ready supply of officials and coaches are willing to have guys work 3 varsity days in a row it will go on. I would not favor a statewide ban on the practice but if I were in a chapter where the majority wanted to limit it, I would support them.
The coaches are aware that a crew can work Thursday through Saturday and want the option to have the "pick of the litter" on Thursdays and Saturdays since there are much fewer games. What they don't know is whether the crew they are using on Saturday has worked the two nights prior. It's been suggested that the Houston Chapter limit games to no more than 2 per week, but it seems the coaches have too much clout.
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It's been suggested that the Houston Chapter limit games to no more than 2 per week, but it seems the coaches have too much clout.
Not only the coaches but the crews getting 3 games a week don't want to give them up either. I bet they would be more inclined if they were all TAPPS games paying $80 a pop. ;)
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The coaches are aware that a crew can work Thursday through Saturday and want the option to have the "pick of the litter" on Thursdays and Saturdays since there are much fewer games. What they don't know is whether the crew they are using on Saturday has worked the two nights prior. It's been suggested that the Houston Chapter limit games to no more than 2 per week, but it seems the coaches have too much clout.
Our Chapter did this somewhat this year. Our crews were allowed to voluntarily agree to no more than 2 games. Of all the crews, the number that opted in was not that great. But when you look at the final analysis, in our chapter's case it is miniscule number of games that are worked by guys who have 3 in a week. And even if those 3d games were worked by someone else, it would not make any real impact on the availaility of games for other officials. There would still be guys sitting at home because many of the crews that only had 1 in the week would then have 2 in the week.