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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: jodibuck on June 23, 2014, 07:36:06 AM
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We had a spirited discussion at our first local clinic concerning reporting fouls to the referee. We have always reported information on all fouls to the referee with no preliminary signal. Our discussion was how our wing officials are to handle encroachment and false starts. A new transfer member indicated his association wanted the wing official to signal from the sideline, instead of coming to the center of the field to notify the referee of the infraction. What is the approved NFHS procedure?
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There is no provision for signaling to the referee. You come and report that foul.
Mr. New Transfer Guy needs to learn "When in Rome......."
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The provision for the wing to signal to the Referee is an NCAA and NFL mechanic, and NOT an approved Federation mechanic.
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We stress to our officials to verbalize the "4 Ws" to the white hat : Who, What, Where & When ^talk
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The provision for the wing to signal to the Referee is an NCAA and NFL mechanic, and NOT an approved Federation mechanic.
Agree that it is not an NF approved mechanic. But maybe it should be.
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But maybe it should be.
And now we hippity hop down the rabbit hole!
<headsmack thingy>
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And now we hippity hop down the rabbit hole!
<headsmack thingy>
I confess that I have no idea what this means.
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I confess that I have no idea what this means.
Means we've been there before, there is often a heated argument, and it doesn't matter because nothing changes.
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This is when the crew communication system with two ways comes in handy.
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From the 2012 – 2013 Officials Manual page 51 … (I have not seen the new manual, but I cannot imagine it has changed.)
ADMINISTERING PENALTIES
VII. ALL GAME OFFICIALS
A. Observe live-ball foul:
1. Withhold whistle.
2. Drop penalty marker at proper yard line and continue to observe play, noting location of ball at time of foul.
3. When ball becomes dead:
a. Give time-out signal (S #3) twice.
b. Sound whistle.
c. Verbally report information to referee.
d. Give no visible signal.
e. Make mental note as to whether clock should be started on ready or on snap.
D. Calling game official (umpire, linesman, line judge, back judge):
1. After calling foul and ball has been declared dead:
a. Sound whistle and give time-out signal (S #3) twice.
b. Get referee’s attention by giving short blasts of whistle.
c. Make sure another game official is covering spot of foul.
d. Verbally report all information fully to referee:
(1) Identify foul.
(2) Identify offending team including jersey color and offense/defense or kicking/receiving team.
(3) Identify offending player’s number or position.
(4) Indicate spot of foul, end of run or end of kick.
(5) Indicate status of ball when foul occurred.
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for DB fouls, I rather prefer the wings don't run all the way in when the guy watching the game on the radio can see the foul.
I believe everyone has the wings toss the flag to the side of the LOS who committed the foul?
R does not need the number so toss the flag to the side of the LOS occurred, hit the whistle, and signal.
R signals whole U walks it off and we hit the RFP. as they said way back in the day "keep on truckin"
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so toss the flag to the side of the LOS occurred,
To paraphrase Ron White- "I had the right.....but I didn't have the ability" ^flag
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I believe everyone has the wings toss the flag to the side of the LOS who committed the foul?
You think I (and every other coach worth his salt) doesn't know that trick? And when I see one wing throw it on the defense and one throw it on the offense, your crew is about to have a bad day. Or other secret signals like the U grabbing his whistle for a ball in the EZ, or wings signalling how many they have on the line on their side? Secret signals aren't secret anymore, and lead to more trouble than they solve.
Drop the flag, and report the foul privately. That way we don't know you can't agree on the call.
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Agree that it is not an NF approved mechanic. But maybe it should be.
Why?
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Drop the flag, and report the foul privately. That way we don't know you can't agree on the call.
I agree. About 1000%.
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Agreed. Don't cut corners.
NCAA and NFL are worried about game time for TV (no such worry in HS)
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Even though it is not an NF mechanic, we in AZ have adopted the mechanic of wings signaling false stars and encroachments. If we have one flag down the wing will come on to the field towards the R and signal the infraction. If we have two flags down, from the wings, we have a signal between them that the foul is on the offense or defense. If they both have the same foul, the LJ will come in to signal the infraction. If they don't, they will come to the middle of the field and determine which foul occurred first. If three flags are down, includes the U mostly, then all three will meet in the middle of the field and the U will signal the infraction. This signaling of fouls are only on false starts and encroachments. All other fouls are reported to the R in the manner you are discussing. We all like it and it seems to speed up the game some. ^good
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RT Johnny jumps before the snap. Everyone in the park saw RT Johnny jump before the snap, including his blind grandmother in the top row. Ball is on the left hash, left handed QB so the R is even farther left. Under current mechanics, the LJ now has to run about 40 yards from his sideline on the right side of the field to go meet the R to tell him something that everyone in the stadium knows, most of all Johnny who is slapping himself in the helmet.
Sometimes, the letter of the book doesn't make the most sense.
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Of course if it is obvious R just signals and no one reports. This can all be done with a look from the R and a nod from the L or H. There is no issue with that
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If we have two flags down, from the wings, we have a signal between them that the foul is on the offense or defense.
Personal opinion: I don't like this. Coaches know these signals too and will know that you don't agree on the call. If you both have flags just come in and have a quick word, most of the time it takes 20 seconds tops from flag to announcement.
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Legacy, I agree with you but the signal between wings is our own and, to my knowledge, has never been seen by a coach. Our signal is not a normal football signal. It's just a quick point to the team that fouled and it is quickly given by each. If they point to the same team that fouled, the LJ will head towards the R and give the signal. If they signal opposite teams, they continue in to determine who fouled. Each can easily see the others point and it has been, so far, quick and easy. Even if a coach figures out what we are doing we will explain what we did and how we determined who fouled. Not much different than any other foul we have to explain.
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...Our signal is not a normal football signal. It's just a quick point to the team that fouled...
You are kidding yourself if you think coaches won't pick up on that.
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It's just a quick point to the team that fouled and it is quickly given by each.
If officials aren't using the "drop the flag on the side of the team that fouled", then this is the next thing that we would see (or touch the side of the face of the team that fouled, or use the arm of the side of the fouling team across your chest or to the belt buckle, seen those too).
And if you signal white and your partner signals red, you've just told the coaches that the two of you couldn't even agree on who fouled. Sure, you can explain how you reached your decision, but why even put yourself in that spot, it's not a good conversation to have to have. If there's two flags down, don't signal anything and just go report. That way, the coaches never know you weren't on the same page.
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Our goal is to get the call right and on occasion we have dueling flags for "a tie" on quick trips into the NZ. With a quick conference, the white hat can correct the situation by ruling false start on A. B can be moving forward prior to the snap while A can't. Another reason why wings shouldn't use the penalty signal.
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Our goal is to get the call right and on occasion we have dueling flags for "a tie" on quick trips into the NZ. With a quick conference, the white hat can correct the situation by ruling false start on A. B can be moving forward prior to the snap while A can't. Another reason why wings shouldn't use the penalty signal.
Or, with young officials, they may get a bit confused on encroachment/ false start. Had a young official come in after a flag and tell he had a false start on A, because B jumped into the neutral zone, but got back before A moved. I asked him "does it matter if B gets back in high school ball"? He thought for a second and said "I've got encroachment on B, then." I smiled and said "all right, then" and we moved on.
How much time does it really take to get both officials to job in to the middle and confirm which way the penalty is going, even on the obvious ones? I'd rather take a few seconds, and prevent the coaches chewing on my posterior the rest of the night because we couldn't even agree on a simple false start...
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Our goal is to get the call right and on occasion we have dueling flags for "a tie" on quick trips into the NZ. With a quick conference, the white hat can correct the situation by ruling false start on A. B can be moving forward prior to the snap while A can't. Another reason why wings shouldn't use the penalty signal.
That is my feeling also, FS trumps encroachment
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Depends on whether the B player breaks the NZ before A moves.
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Depends on whether the B player breaks the NZ before A moves.
Beat me to it.
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I'd rather run in anyway. It gets boring on the wing! I need someone to talk to once in a while and the Umpire and R seem to be having so much more conversation!! Maybe that's why I throw so many flags ^flag :sTiR:
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You think I (and every other coach worth his salt) doesn't know that trick? And when I see one wing throw it on the defense and one throw it on the offense, your crew is about to have a bad day.
AB, don't make the mistake of assuming too much. Just because some officials do this, it does not mean everybody does it. Just because the new LJ throws his flag and it lands on your opponent's side of the field, it doesn't mean the foul is on them. He may just be happy he was able to see the foul and kill the play.
Just because the U grabs his whistle, it doesn't mean a TD has been scored. It only means he sees the ball across the goal line. That does not mean the wing official did not have a knee down.
We use signals to communicate with each other. Personally, I don't care of the coach thinks he knows what a signal is. And if he wants to be an BUTT ("...your crew is about to have a bad day") I can give as good as I get.
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AB, don't make the mistake of assuming too much. Just because some officials do this, it does not mean everybody does it. Just because the new LJ throws his flag and it lands on your opponent's side of the field, it doesn't mean the foul is on them. He may just be happy he was able to see the foul and kill the play.
Just because the U grabs his whistle, it doesn't mean a TD has been scored. It only means he sees the ball across the goal line. That does not mean the wing official did not have a knee down.
We use signals to communicate with each other. Personally, I don't care of the coach thinks he knows what a signal is. And if he wants to be an BUTT ("...your crew is about to have a bad day") I can give as good as I get.
What he said!
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AB, don't make the mistake of assuming too much. Just because some officials do this, it does not mean everybody does it. Just because the new LJ throws his flag and it lands on your opponent's side of the field, it doesn't mean the foul is on them. He may just be happy he was able to see the foul and kill the play.
Usually, you can tell the difference between a wing that is simply dropping the flag (or worse off, throwing it high in the air), and one that is deliberately trying to determine the side on which he is dropping it. If he can do it so subtly that I can't tell it was intentional, good for him!
Just because the U grabs his whistle, it doesn't mean a TD has been scored. It only means he sees the ball across the goal line. That does not mean the wing official did not have a knee down.
I fully realize that. But when the ump grabs his whistle and the wing somes in digging in the pile, someone has screwed up. Now, if the wing comes in marking a spot and sells the knee down, great, the ump's grab means nothing. But a wing that comes in digging after getting the signal either isn't paying attention, or doesn't know what hes doing.
We use signals to communicate with each other. Personally, I don't care of the coach thinks he knows what a signal is. And if he wants to be an BUTT ("...your crew is about to have a bad day") I can give as good as I get.
Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight. But I'll win the war. We needn't go into details here, but I've only taken my complaints to the highest levels twice, and in both cases, I was the one shown to be correct.
There's a difference between a coach that whines all the time, and one that is judicious in his complaints, and can back them up. The latter gets listened to.
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Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight. But I'll win the war. We needn't go into details here, but I've only taken my complaints to the highest levels twice, and in both cases, I was the one shown to be correct.
There's a difference between a coach that whines all the time, and one that is judicious in his complaints, and can back them up. The latter gets listened to.
And did it change the outcome? ???
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And did it change the outcome? ???
I wasn't going to go there, but you asked. In both cases, the crew was reprimanded, and their playoff games were taken away from them.
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If I may, what was so egregious that it warranted that kind of reaction? Surely it was bigger than the types of things discussed in this thread.
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If I may, what was so egregious that it warranted that kind of reaction? Surely it was bigger than the types of things discussed in this thread.
Of course it was. As I said, I don't whine just to whine. If I escalate an issue to the state level, then it was something significant, that wasn't handled right. Something like this, I might mention it to the association president to let him know, and they always get back to me after talking with the crew.
Some coaches whine incessantly, even to the state, and therefore, when they really do have a legitimate complaint, they don't get heard (the boy who cried wolf). But if you rarely complain, back up your complaints with video and an include an unemotional explanation with facts instead of opinions, you get heard.
Reputation is everything. Greatest football compliment I was ever given came from the state's head of officials when I was being introduced at a clinic, "If Coach here is in your ear and telling you something's wrong, you better call timeout and get to your referee, because odds on, you've got a problem."
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I wasn't going to go there, but you asked. In both cases, the crew was reprimanded, and their playoff games were taken away from them.
But did it change the outcome?
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But did it change the outcome?
Of our games, no, the damage was done.
Of their future, absolutely. So ultimately, they did have a bad day.
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Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight. But I'll win the war.
But did it change the outcome?
Of our games, no, the damage was done.
Of their future, absolutely.
My point being nothing was accomplished other than the satisfaction of getting your "revenge." And we wonder why officials mistrust coaches.
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If officials aren't using the "drop the flag on the side of the team that fouled", then this is the next thing that we would see (or touch the side of the face of the team that fouled, or use the arm of the side of the fouling team across your chest or to the belt buckle, seen those too).
And if you signal white and your partner signals red, you've just told the coaches that the two of you couldn't even agree on who fouled. Sure, you can explain how you reached your decision, but why even put yourself in that spot, it's not a good conversation to have to have. If there's two flags down, don't signal anything and just go report. That way, the coaches never know you weren't on the same page.
I thought eavesdropping on conversations between other people was a sign of bad manners. One would think conversations between field officials, either by voice or by signal, were intended to be limited to field officials, since we ALWAYS have the option to include coaches, or ask for their advice, when we think it may be helpful, or beneficial to the game.
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My point being nothing was accomplished other than the satisfaction of getting your "revenge." And we wonder why officials mistrust coaches.
Would have to hope that for this to progress to this level the incident was much more egregious (as stated in a previous post) than the run of the mill disagreement. Would hope this went through the chain of command, crew chief, assigner, local board etc. before reaching the state level. And even then could only imagine taking it to state level if the crew was found wrong at the lower levels and still refused to acknowledge it and learn from it. If that were the case I don't feel "revenge" was what was accomplished. If it was a mistake that the crew acknowledged (admittedly probably well after game had ended) and learned from then this would seem more like a revenge motive. Only other valid reason to approach state would be to use this play situation as a learning experience for all officials but without an attempt at retribution.
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My point being nothing was accomplished other than the satisfaction of getting your "revenge." And we wonder why officials mistrust coaches.
Mistrust? So we are just supposed to accept whatever the official says, no matter how wrong they may be?
It's bad enough they took away the formal protest of a rules misinterpretation (which used to exist in Georgia until about 8 years ago). Official is dead wrong on a rule interp. I'm just supposed to say, "Thank you, sir" and move on? Sorry, not going to happen. That official doesn't deserve to work playoffs, just figure it's my responsibility to make sure the state knows it.
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So we are just supposed to accept whatever the official says, no matter how wrong they may be?
No more than officials are supposed to accept whatever a coach says, no matter how wrong they may be. And they can be wrong.
Last year, an entire coaching staff - all 7 of them - insisted a crew gave the opponent 5 downs in a series. After reviewing the film, including down, distance and a copy of the play-by-play, we found the "extra" down came because - cue the band - they thought OPI still carries a LOD. Really?
I guess the crew could have reported the coaching staff to the state and kept them from coaching in the playoffs.
Your crew won your battle; you won your war (your words), and the crew suffered consequences. Too bad those battles and wars are only fought on one front.
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Sometimes it makes sense and pause to reflect that football is a game, played by scholar athletes, that is an additional part of their basic learning experience. It's NOT a contest between supervisory adults as to who happens to be smarter, or who shouts louder.
When there is a disagreement related to any matter, there is a defined protocol designed to resolve the disagreement (You might review NFHS 3-5-2c) from which after THE decision is reached, the game moves on.
Any individual coach should be focused on whether he, has earned the right to participate in post season play, rather than worry about what is necessary for a game official to advance. I stronglt suggest the extreme rarity of ANY official working a perfect game is similar to the extreme rarity of any coach, achieving coaching perfection. People who live in glass houses, on either side of a sideline, should think twice before throwing any rocks.
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No more than officials are supposed to accept whatever a coach says, no matter how wrong they may be. And they can be wrong.
Oh, they can be quite wrong about the rules, quite often. I find it embarrassing to hear how wrong coaches can be. Unfortunately for officials, yes, you pretty much have to listen to what they say, within reason. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to rule in their favor, but if they do it it properly, you have to listen. Comes with the job.
Last year, an entire coaching staff - all 7 of them - insisted a crew gave the opponent 5 downs in a series. After reviewing the film, including down, distance and a copy of the play-by-play, we found the "extra" down came because - cue the band - they thought OPI still carries a LOD. Really?
Wrong, but not outrageous. They just weren't up to date. But you couldn't straighten that one out?
And believe me, they were closer to "up to date" than the H who this past season told me Illegal Procedure certainly was a penalty in HS football, and he pulled out his signal card to prove it to me. Sure enough, his card said signal 19 was Illegal Procedure. I think it also said Lyndon Johnson was President, but he didn't let that get in the way of his ignorance.
I guess the crew could have reported the coaching staff to the state and kept them from coaching in the playoffs.
If you think that will get you anything other than laughed out of the office, then have at it.
Look, coaches make tons of mistakes, I'm not defending them. And if they were to do something egregious (shoving an official, or an opposing player, or instructing his players to intentionally injure an opponent, etc,), then they absolutely should be reported to the state and banned from coaching in the playoffs. But if an officiating crew completely ignores or misinterprets a rule, and refuses to look it up or allow it to be looked up, then they too should be reported and removed, as they obviously aren't competent to do the job at that level.
Your crew won your battle; you won your war (your words), and the crew suffered consequences. Too bad those battles and wars are only fought on one front.
But they aren't. There are a number of coaches around our state that served suspensions last year because the officiating crew filed a report. Far more than the other way around. And I'm betting most all of them deserved it.
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If the officials make an egregious mistake, coaches should report it to the appropriate people and if that causes the officials to miss out on playoffs, I have no problem. AB should report the mistake especially if the official will not acknowledge the mistake. It is not about revenge. It is about having the best officials available work playoff games. No official works perfect games. Errors are going to occur but when the error is huge and affects the game significantly there should be consequences to the officials.
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It is not about revenge.
Right! Then explain the quote: "Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight. But I'll win the war."
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Right! Then explain the quote: "Of course, you will win the battle and have the last word tonight. But I'll win the war."
Here is the evolution of that comment, which is way off where we started. I said if officials have disagreeing signals that a coach can see, the crew is setting themselves for a bad night, needlessly. FBUmp said go ahead, he can give as good as he gets. That is when I pointed out, "You will win the battle, but I will win the war." If an official decides he's going to "give it to a coach" when they have made an egregious error, then yes, I will escalate the issue to the state. As I said. In 14 years, I have done it twice, and both times, I was shown to be correct and the officials incorrect.
It's not just an official making a mistake, heck, that happens every game. But the official that "gives as good as he gets" when wrong needs to miss the playoffs. As far as I'm concerned, he should lose his Varsity schedule for the year. That's a FAR different situation than an official that remains respectful, admits there is a chance of being wrong, and is willing to look into it. That official gets respect. The former gets reported.
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he should lose his Varsity schedule for the year.
How did we go from proper mechanics for an encroachment/false start to losing a varsity schedule for a year?
I am thankful I work the cornfields of the Midwest and not the red clay of Georgia.
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A word about our "secret signals".... ???( I've never really considered them secret as they are published in the Officials Manual - pg 23 & Simplified & Illustrated -pg 206), they are used as aids to both officials and players, alike. When a wideout asks : "Am I OK??"; we respond : "If my fist is pointing towards your backfield, you are off the line; if it's at my side then you're on." The touching signal ,if kick is touched downfield by R; the tapping of the cap if the TE is covered, etc,etc are other examples of signals to aid the game and aren't intended to be secret. Three underused words that somehow defuse combative situations are "please" and "thank you". IMHO, our job as zebras isn't to argue with coaches, but to listen and respond. We are neutral and the coach is not. Once you've heard enough let him know it's time to move on. Enough from my soapbox.... yEs:... time to watch a soccer game FlAg1 aWaRd :patrioticon:
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When a wideout asks : "Am I OK??"; we respond : "If my fist is pointing towards your backfield, you are off the line; if it's at my side then you're on."
"I don't know how good you are, 87, but you're on the line." ;)
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It's not just an official making a mistake, heck, that happens every game. But the official that "gives as good as he gets" when wrong needs to miss the playoffs.
It would appear that you are laboring under a presumption that "officials are somehow required to "take" whatever coaches choose to "give" which is totally insane, under any circumstance.
Perhaps you've skimmed over NFHS 9-8-1, which applies to Coaches, substitutes, athletic trainers, or other team attendants and contains the following "examples" of violations are, but not limited to"
b. Attempting to influence a decision by a game official.
c. Disrespectfully addressing a game official
d. Indicating objections to a game official's dcisions
j. Being on the field except as a substitute or replaced player
k. Being outside the team box, but not on the field
It is NOT UNUSUAL that most, if not every one of these examples, occurs at some point during EVERY game, and are usually handled judiciously, an inoccuously, by game officials without the necessity of administering the appropriate major penalty. Understanding the excitement and emotional involvement of sideline personnel is an integral part of game officials responsibilities, requiring patience, constructive advice and controlable temperment.
However the primary responsibility for any and all sideline personnel is self control over excitement and emotion and maintaining appropriate decorum during any interaction with game officials. Rule makers have long established, that sideline personnel have no proscribed interaction role with game officials aside from that defined in NFHS 3-5-10 and 11, although it is generally accepted practice for game officials to respond, whenever possible and game situations allow, to a genuine, respectfully asked questions.
There is no "Taking whatever is Given", simply because there is NO allowance for "giving" ANYTHING inappropriate, and doing so includes blanket acceptance of WHATEVER consequences are provided in response. In many circles, Coach/Official interaction is based on something we all should have learned at a young age, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar", which usually makes for a far more enjoyable experience for everyone concerned.