RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: mantle on July 29, 2014, 11:16:22 PM
-
Still having a little problem with the new procedures on the kickoff. Rule 6, Section 1, Article 3. I quote "After the ball is marked ready for play, and until the ball is kicked, K must meet the following formation requirements:" I understand the requirements but can K correct any mistakes before the ball is kicked? Example - 3 players on one side after RFP, player touching the 35 yard line on his run up for the kickoff (not the kicker) or any other procedure prior to the actual kick. In all of these examples the kicking team meets the requirements at the actual kick of the ball.
-
That question came up in our recent clinic. Colorado's rules interpreter reminded everyone of the importance of preventive officiating, which made a lot of sense. We were encouraged to have the BJ remind the kicker of the restrictions before handing him the ball, and to encourage him to make sure his teammates are in immediate compliance. When the kicker conveys understanding, hand him the ball and then move into position and signal to R that his zone is ready for RFP. It may take a few times before the new rule is second nature to the athletes, but this brief reminder should help them catch on quickly. It should also help to minimize flags during the beginning of the season.
-
Technically, you have fouls in both cases, which is why these are such poorly written rules. But as COLOUMP, use some common sense, and fix these things before they become problems. The only time you should have a formation foul on a kickoff is if the team shifts after the RFP.
-
IMHO, for years we used to have the official at R's line remind them that : "You guys need 5 players between the 45 and 50" and I see this as little difference. 3 states experimented with this last year and one (Iowa) for the last three with few problems reported.
-
At our state clinic last night, we were instructed to hold the RFP until K is properly in formation, to be proactive in encouraging in K to get into proper formation, and to flag DOG if they abuse it. If the identified kicker, who is the only one who can be on or beyond the five yard boundary, lines up there, he is locked in as THE kicker.
-
In Missouri, we are instructed to not worry about the "From the RFP" part of the rules. Teams can remain at the sideline until the RFP and come out, or be is a huddle and then come out. Either one will be allowed. As long as they don't try to use either method to get a running start, we're just told to worry that they are legal at the time of the kick. Shifts, lining up wrong, etc. can be corrected.
-
In Missouri, we are instructed to not worry about the "From the RFP" part of the rules. Teams can remain at the sideline until the RFP and come out, or be is a huddle and then come out. Either one will be allowed. As long as they don't try to use either method to get a running start, we're just told to worry that they are legal at the time of the kick. Shifts, lining up wrong, etc. can be corrected.
Missouri making up their own rules this year? :sTiR:
-
At our state clinic last night, we were instructed to hold the RFP until K is properly in formation, to be proactive in encouraging in K to get into proper formation, and to flag DOG if they abuse it. If the identified kicker, who is the only one who can be on or beyond the five yard boundary, lines up there, he is locked in as THE kicker.
This is how we are being instructed in SoCal as well. Don't signal to R for RFP until BJ get 11 players on the field, all within the 5 yrd box (except kicker if so declared). Get to your spot and be ready to officiate - very important. And then give the signal. Just need to watch for motion and make sure that when the ball is kicked we still have 4x4 and any shifts players don't leave the box.
We also watched some preliminary video of a game played under the new rules and it really took the steam out of K. Look for more run backs, which could mean more blocks in the back and low blocks, or touch backs. I will be curious to see how long this rule is in effect as it really changes the game.
-
Missouri making up their own rules this year? :sTiR:
They see at as a more reasonable interpretation of the new rule.
How are you guys going to handle a team that's huddling on the side line? Since the RFP hasn't sounded, a delay of game will be akward since 3-6-2 calls for delay after "Failure to snap or free kick within 25 seconds after the ball is marked ready for play."
-
They see at as a more reasonable interpretation of the new rule.
How are you guys going to handle a team that's huddling on the side line? Since the RFP hasn't sounded, a delay of game will be akward since 3-6-2 calls for delay after "Failure to snap or free kick within 25 seconds after the ball is marked ready for play."
3-6-2f:
ART. 2 . . . Action or inaction which prevents promptness in putting the ball in
play is delay of game. This includes:
f. Any other conduct which unduly prolongs the game.
While I don't mind the Missouri "interpretation", I do think it enters the realm of "new rules"!
-
Maybe we'll all be lucky, and that small percentage of people who insist on trying to impress everyone with how clever they are, won't go out of their way with nit-picking options to punch holes in this revision. Hope springs eternal.
-
They see at as a more reasonable interpretation of the new rule.
"Reasonable interpretation" ??? LOL
Really now! How about "Blatant disregard?"
-
"Reasonable interpretation" ??? LOL
Really now! How about "Blatant disregard?"
OK, "blatantly disregarding" a badly written rule is an act of civil disobedience!
-
OK, "blatantly disregarding" a badly written rule is an act of civil disobedience!
FIGHT THE POWER!!! ;D
-
OK, "blatantly disregarding" a badly written rule is an act of civil disobedience!
There are a lot of badly written rules. There are a lot of badly written laws, too. So it's OK to choose which ones we want to follow and which ones we don't?
-
There are a lot of badly written rules. There are a lot of badly written laws, too. So it's OK to choose which ones we want to follow and which ones we don't?
My goodness, we do that all the time. Show me in the rule book where it says it's legal to hold away from the ball. It's not - a hold away from the ball is a foul that we chose not to call because we have decided it's better deal with it in a different way.
Since this is a brand new rule, I think the state realizes the NF may tweak it as the year goes on. That often happens with new rules so I think their interpretation is reasonable given the circumstances.
-
My goodness, we do that all the time. Show me in the rule book where it says it's legal to hold away from the ball. It's not - a hold away from the ball is a foul that we chose not to call because we have decided it's better deal with it in a different way.
Since this is a brand new rule, I think the state realizes the NF may tweak it as the year goes on. That often happens with new rules so I think their interpretation is reasonable given the circumstances.
It's not an interpretation. It is a 'not seeing it happen,' as we do for holds away from the play.
Not saying I agree with it, just offering justified wording for your case. If that's how MO wants to do it, more power to them if they have to answer to NFHS ... I've heard of many local associations that adopt their own versions of 'Don't see this in your games'
-
Since this is a brand new rule, I think the state realizes the NF may tweak it as the year goes on. That often happens with new rules so I think their interpretation is reasonable given the circumstances.
I have been assured by three different people involved with the rules that it WILL be tweaked in January, but not before.
It HAS to be tweaked. The rule currently requires at least 4 players on either side of the kicker. Until toe meets leather, there is no kicker. How can we have 4 on either side of something that by rule doesn't exist?
-
How can we have 4 on either side of something that by rule doesn't exist?
Ah, the Law of Unintended Consequences.
Oh how I pine for the heady days of the Horsecollar tackle.
-
I have been assured by three different people involved with the rules that it WILL be tweaked in January, but not before.
It HAS to be tweaked. The rule currently requires at least 4 players on either side of the kicker. Until toe meets leather, there is no kicker. How can we have 4 on either side of something that by rule doesn't exist?
I've been told more than once the proposal that came to the floor from committee said "...on either side of the ball." If that's the case, somebody changed it after the vote, and changing the word "kicker" to "ball" is the tweak we will likely see.
Meanwhile, I've also been told the Missouri folks who come to play in Arkansas and Tennessee this season (and probably the other border states) need to be aware the rule will be enforced as presently written.
-
It's not an interpretation. It is a 'not seeing it happen,' as we do for holds away from the play.
Not saying I agree with it, just offering justified wording for your case. If that's how MO wants to do it, more power to them if they have to answer to NFHS ... I've heard of many local associations that adopt their own versions of 'Don't see this in your games'
I've never heard the back side hold referred to as "not seeing it happen." We often talk about making it a talk to so they are aware you saw them. It goes to the philosophy of advantage/disadvantage and applying the spirit of the rule. It helps with game management and keeping things flowing.
The Missouri interpretation follows the intent and spirit of this rule, especially since the approved version did have the word "ball" rather than "kicker". There is no advantage gained if 3 guys are next to the kicker when they are set. It matters where they are when the ball is kicked.
-
I'm pretty sure Ralph told us that the original proposal said "kicker, not "ball". Obviously, "ball" makes more sense, but this was not fully vetted from the start.
As far as MO having to "answer" to the NFHS, they don't have to answer to anyone. Each state is free to adopt their own rules, and is responsible for their own interpretations.
-
As far as MO having to "answer" to the NFHS, they don't have to answer to anyone. Each state is free to adopt their own rules, and is responsible for their own interpretations.
100% correct!
-
I'm pretty sure Ralph told us that the original proposal said "kicker, not "ball". Obviously, "ball" makes more sense, but this was not fully vetted from the start.
As far as MO having to "answer" to the NFHS, they don't have to answer to anyone. Each state is free to adopt their own rules, and is responsible for their own interpretations.
I'm led to believe that if a state has representation on the rules committee, they are to follow the playing rules by "all material aspects." I am not sure if MO has that representation; however, I never said the NFHS was going to call them either.
Not a major deal because we all understand (in spirit) why the new rules are there; however, I don't see how blatantly disregarding the rules as written is helping the matter.
-
Missouri's representative is Harvey Richards.
-
We have a team in our area which goes immediately from the try to its KO positions (no sideline huddle, pep talk etc.) and waits for the other team to get into its own KO formation. This team's coach is aware that the rules call for a one minute long official time out after a try. At the one minute mark he is asking why we aren't sounding the RFP. If this team is now going to be R, what do we tell this coach when we are allowing K extra time to get into legal formation before sounding the RFP?
-
If this team is now going to be R, what do we tell this coach when we are allowing K extra time to get into legal formation before sounding the RFP?
"Because that is what <insert your state office here> told us to do Coach. Now please get back in the box. Thank you."
-
"Because that is what <insert your state office here> told us to do Coach. Now please get back in the box. Thank you."
If your state has provided guidance in this area (specifically, told you to ignore the one minute limitation on official time outs after a try) then at least you have something to say to the coach. Our state has not provided any guidance/instructions for such a situation.
-
Might be a good idea to ask them to provide some clarity. Or conversely, drop some DOG's on meandering K.
Our director did tell us to be lenient and helpful during the first few weeks as the teams adjust.
-
We give each team a 15-second warning, just like we do after any other TO, and rarely have a problem. I would certainly support a DOG penalty if one team keeps dawdling after being warned.
Also, we deem the one-minute interval to have started as soon as the whistle blows on the XP attempt. By the time the teams run off the field & the under-post officials have made it upfield, the 15-second warning isn't far off.
-
The simplest answer might be, "The Referee will sound the RFP when he deems both teams and the field officials are all ready for play to commence". If there is unnecessary delay caused by either team, the Referee has remedies available, when he deems they are appropriate.
-
In Illinois we have been instructed to hold the RFP whistle until we get everyone lined up correctly. They stressed to us that this rule will be handled with preventative officiating.
-
As always, I'll preface this by apologizing in advance if there is already a thread on this...
New rule for 2014 re: 4 on either side of the kicker. Unlike NCAA where it's a "snapshot" at the kick, in Fed it's from the time of the RFP to the kick. Are the traditional "bunch formations/huddles" and then they 'break' just out of the question? Obviously we're not going to ticky-tack this and coach them up especially at the beginning of the season but at the same time the rule was passed for a reason. I assume that the rules committee is indicating that they want these types of pre-kick actions gone.
How are we all going to officiate this from a practical standpoint? Tell the coaches ahead of time that this is a foul this year or are you going to let the kicker "call a play" after the whistle and then they break to their kickoff lanes. Obviously any trickery or surprise onside from this formation is an automatic DB foul for encroachment if they're not perfectly legal.
Thoughts/comments?
-
In NC, at least, the huddle is dead because you have to have at least 4 on each side of the kicker and once the kicker is designated, you've got to be able to officiate the 4 per side.
See also- http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=11021.0
-
The kicker isn't designated until toe meets ball (2-32-8) so what do you do before then?
-
For this situation, the Fed has bent the rules. There are several discussion threads about it here.
-
I plan on telling our guys (officials & coaches) that when the official hands the ball to the kicker, he is the guy expected to do the kicking. If someone else decides to kick we need to be sure that the surprise kicker comes from the side of the expected kicker where there are at least 5 players and that the expected kicker is not more than 5 yards deep. The 3 states that experimented with this reported little confusion and few penalties after the first couple of weeks.
-
Ralph can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told part of the reason for this rule was to prevent the bunch kickoff. Problem is, if done right, this doesn't eliminate the bunch kickoff at all. If the huddle has no player more than 5 yards deep, and the huddle keeps 4 on either side of the kicker, nothing makes them spread out, nothing prevents the bunch, it can be done just as before.
If you can't see there are 4 on either side, that's not a foul. You have to see that there AREN'T 4 on each side for there to be a foul. And in that bunch kick, you may not have any idea who the kicker is until he kicks the ball. If there were then less than 4 on one side of that player, then the play is "retroactively" killed, which also violates the principle that no foul causes the ball to be dead.
FED didn't "bend" the rules here, they butchered them and pieced them back together to fix something that could have easily been prevented by using the word BALL instead of KICKER.
-
At our state clinic last night, we were instructed that if K likes up with three on one side of the player who lines up deep as a kicker, to give them a few seconds to try to correct it, and if there's nobody moving to fix the problem shut the play down right away. For a seven-man crew, the R is going to be the best one to determine this, so it's primarily his call.
I also think that a good amount of preventive officiating will be in order for the first few weeks of the regular season. Ultimately, though, if a team gets popped for this once or twice, they'll pay a lot more attention to this and we should have minimal issues as the season progresses.
Not entirely unrelated - the instructor mentioned that there was also a proposal during the rules committee meeting to just eliminate kickoffs entirely that wasn't dismissed out of hand. Ralph, if you can discuss without giving anything away, how much traction did this idea have? Is this something that should be on our radar for the next few years as a possibility?
-
There was a third rule proposal that would have eliminated the bunch kick by requiring at least 3 yards between each K player. It was very confusing to understand and considered unofficiateble by many and died on the vine. So the K players could bunch as long as there was 4 on each side of the kicker. While plays reflecting some rule changes rarely occur, we are assured of this change occurring at least twice a game (in a 0-0 tie ::)), so we need to be prepared for it and give the players time to adjust.
-
We've had this rule for two years as a test case state. Our crew, plus the games I filled in on other crews, did not have a single penalty. We only had one that was close because the player next to the kicker ran behind the kicker about the time the ball was kicked (and it was a deep kick). There is a lot of discussion about this across the board, however, I don't think it will cause the angst that some thing it will.
-
I don't think it will cause the angst that some thing it will.
I think any angst will result in those coaches who dream up ways to circumvent it.
-
We were instructed by the PIAA that if one person is lined up deep past 5 yards, he is the ONLY person that can be the kicker (else, there will be a violation of the 5 yard run-up rule). So therefore, he cannot have less than 4 players to one side of him at ANY TIME after the ready.
If all K players are within 5 yards of the restraining line, then we must wait until he kicks the ball before we can determine 4 on each side of the kicker.
-
I think any angst will result in those coaches who dream up ways to circumvent it.
+1
-
The directions we got in Oklahoma were that we could only call the foul when we knew the kicker, so we have to wait until the ball was kicked to make a call (even if someone is lined up past the 35, he isn't the kicker until he kicks it). The only thing we've been told to shut down early is multiple people on or behind the 35.
-
so we have to wait until the ball was kicked to make a call (even if someone is lined up past the 35, he isn't the kicker until he kicks it).
You Okies not get the memo that the Fed suspended the definition of a kicker for this instance?
:!#
:sTiR:
-
If it isn't sent in smoke signals, we didn't get it.
-
So what we are saying is that once the ready for play is given, all 11 players are frozen. If there are not at least 4 players on each side of the kicker, we have a dead ball foul immediately after RFP whistle.(assuming the kicker is behind the 35 yard line.) (If all 11 players are inside the zone, we have a dead ball foul when the ball is kicked if less that four are on one side) If more that one player is in contact with the 35 yard line at the RFP we have an immediate dead ball foul. After the RFP whistle, kickers have 25 seconds to kick the ball but no one can move. Only after the kicker is determined do we have a possible dead ball foul.
-
but no one can move.
They are allowed to move after the RFP, but they must have at least four on each side of the kicker (ball) when the kick is made and only the kicker can be on or behind the 35 yard line between the RFP and the kick.
-
They are allowed to move after the RFP, but they must have at least four on each side of the kicker (ball) when the kick is made and only the kicker can be on or behind the 35 yard line between the RFP and the kick.
Because of the way a kicker is defined, a better way to say it might be that K must have at least four on each side of the kicker (ball) when toe meets leather, and if one player is on or behind the 35 yard line between the RFP and the kick he must become the kicker.
-
I do not understand why so many are hung up on "At least four K players must be on each side of the kicker" and debate he is not a kicker until he kicks the ball.
To my knowledge, this was never an issue in the past with 2-14-3b and 6-1-3a. Each state something similar to "Following the ready-for-play for a free-kick down and until the ball is kicked all K players, other than the kicker and holder, must be behind their free kick line."
I would say it is impossible for the Kicker to be in front of the free kick line before he actually kicks the ball. I'm sure the rule is referring to the "plant foot" of the "player that is about to kick the ball." Technically the "plant foot" goes down before the ball is kicked so the player is not a Kicker when he is on or beyond his Free Kick Line.
We do not call encroachment because we know what the rule means. It is no different than the wording of 6-1-3c ... we know what the rule means.
-
So, on a free kick following a fair catch, all of these restrictions apply - right?
Also, if (on a wind day) K is using a holder, does he count as one of the 4 players on his side of the kicker? :sTiR: :sTiR: >:D
Good night all!
-
Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?
-
Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?
I will use the press box sideline for my reference. So the 5th, 6th and 7th players from that sideline are all eligible kickers.
-
So then we are contradicting the rule book which, on page 35, defines a kicker as"any player who legally punts, dropkicks or place kicks. A player becomes a kicker when his knee, lower leg or foot makes contact with the ball"
-
You are several weeks late with that observation.
-
I guess better late than never.
-
Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?
The player the official hands the football to is assumed to be the kicker. The white hat is responsible for the enforcement of the "4 on each side " rule. If it is an onside kick situation, he should focus on the weak side - if the kick formation is unbalanced - for if one of the 4 becomes a surprise kicker, you have a violation. We had our first meeting with the coaches last night and several expressed this would hurt their onside kick game ; after thinking for a few minutes they realized it would effect their opponent's onside kick game,too.
-
after thinking for a few minutes they realized it would effect their opponent's onside kick game,too.
Rarely do they have that much foresight. You might want to call Ripley's.
:sTiR:
-
Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?
Let's not over-think this situation. When all 11 K players are positioned inside the 5 yd "belt", there are only three positions which may produce a kicker. The four outside positions (on each side) may never kick the ball. That's 8 of the 11 player positions - leaving only the three remaining positions eligible to kick.
There is/are no shift scenarios that I can think of that could change this.
-
Aren't all 11 players eligible to kick the ball? A player may have to change positions within the formation to make it legal, but can't he do that without a foul? Example- the player on the outside end of the formation simply runs behind the others, turns and kicks the ball. If there were 5 on that side, there would still be four. What am I missing?
-
Aren't all 11 players eligible to kick the ball? A player may have to change positions within the formation to make it legal, but can't he do that without a foul? Example- the player on the outside end of the formation simply runs behind the others, turns and kicks the ball. If there were 5 on that side, there would still be four. What am I missing?
Since there has to be 4 on each side FROM THE RFP THROUGH THE KICK (unless you are in Oregon or Missouri), then your outside man kicking would be an encroachment foul assuming he started running after the RFP.
-
Aren't all 11 players eligible to kick the ball? A player may have to change positions within the formation to make it legal, but can't he do that without a foul? Example- the player on the outside end of the formation simply runs behind the others, turns and kicks the ball. If there were 5 on that side, there would still be four. What am I missing?
Notice, I wrote the four OUTSIDE POSITIONS - not PLAYERS. Your example - 5 on that side - would be legal (sorry AB) because 4 players would always remain POSITIONED to that side of the eventual kicker. All I'm saying is that any of the other four on that side, and any of the outside four positions on the other side would NEVER be eligible to kick the ball.
-
Notice, I wrote the four OUTSIDE POSITIONS - not PLAYERS. Your example - 5 on that side - would be legal (sorry AB) because 4 players would always remain POSITIONED to that side of the eventual kicker. All I'm saying is that any of the other four on that side, and any of the outside four positions on the other side would NEVER be eligible to kick the ball.
Gotcha. I understand that. Thanks.
BTW, hello to everyone. I used to be on the old FED forum before they shut it down, and was pleasantly surprised to see some of the old screen names here when I logged on. Hope to continue my education here; there is a lot of football savvy and rules knowledge here.
-
I work both NFHS and NCAA officiated games it seams pretty straight forward to me. Not sure what's all the confusion. It's at least four on one side of the ball besides the kicker. Only the player who kicks the ball may be behind K35. I'm sure during the first few weeks of the season there will be a learning curve for schools, but by the end of the season its a done issue, minus some dumb coaches who will learn by the penalties he receives. As the WH, during my on field pre-game meeting with the HC's I will ask if they understand this rule change.
-
I work both NFHS and NCAA officiated games it seams pretty straight forward to me. Not sure what's all the confusion. It's at least four on one side of the ball besides the kicker.
If that's the way you call it, you're making up new rules in FED. The problem is that the rule says you must have 4 on each side of the KICKER, not the BALL. And in FED, it's for anytime after the RFP, not at the kick.
Yes, the NCAA rule is pretty straight forward. The FED rule isn't worded the same.
-
It was suggested during our weekly meeting last night that whoever is giving the ball to the K enlists the help of the player to whom we hand the ball. Something to the effect of "OK, tell everybody to keep their feet inside the 35, and make sure that there's at least four on either side of you when you kick the ball. Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."
The one making the suggestion figures that it gives us another layer of preventive officiating. YMMV.
-
"Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."
We're requiring the goal line to wear a hat now? >:D >:D
-
It was suggested during our weekly meeting last night that whoever is giving the ball to the K enlists the help of the player to whom we hand the ball. Something to the effect of "OK, tell everybody to keep their feet inside the 35, and make sure that there's at least four on either side of you when you kick the ball. Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."
This is now the interp in Oregon as well, but isn't it in conflict with the rule which says you have to have 4 on each side from the RFP to the kick? I agree, it's simpler and makes more sense, but aren't you applying a fix that isn't really there?
Is it an act of civil disobedience (and common sense) that FED should have written, but didn't?
-
I am just going to post once because I believe this posting has about run its course. This is a time where intent of the rule and common sense really does matter. If the team is at the sideline or kind of muddling around after the RFP, we should not immediately throw a flag and call a foul. This is unnecessarily inserting ourselves into the game and being over officious. If it is obvious that K is going to kick the ball with less than 4 on one side of him or the other. We kill the play and enforce the penalty.
Let's not look for trouble and nit pick a rule. Intent is important here, and the intent of the rule is clearly to prevent a possible injury by overloading one side of the kicker especially on onside kick situations. What advantage is K gaining by muddling around right after the RFP?
-
What advantage is K gaining by muddling around right after the RFP?
Ask a special teams coach and see what kind of answer you get.
-
I know I said I would post only once...However, I would like to hear from them.
I am always open to listening, and *gasp* may even change my mind. That is hopefully why we have boards like this.
-
"Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."
We're requiring the goal line to wear a hat now? >:D >:D
OK, so I dangled my participle. So what? ;D
-
I know this rule is meant for safety, but they could have just as easily said, 'At the kick, there must be at least 4 players on each side of the kicker'. There is really no reason why you need this number to be correct at the ready for play, for safety reasons.
I'll give you an unsafe play that is totally legal:
Ball spotted at right hash for an attempted onside kick at the K40.
4 K-players line up on the left numbers, all other K players are between the right hash and the sideline.
The K team has timing planned where the 4 K players get a running start, run to the right and almost reach the kicker when he kicks the ball toward the right sideline, they then pass the kicker (after the ball has been kicked), and now all 10 players are to the right of the kicker in attempting to get the onside kick (with 4 of those kickers having a 20 yard running start)
There is no way that this is 'safe' the way the new rules, I think, are meant to provide more safety.... but I expect many kicking teams to try something like this now.
-
but I expect many kicking teams to try something like this now.
We tried it at camp last week. It's possible, but REAL hard to time up right, and it gives the kicker a short field to try to bounce a kick into.
Not saying we won't work on it, but it's tough.
-
This is now the interp in Oregon as well, but isn't it in conflict with the rule which says you have to have 4 on each side from the RFP to the kick? I agree, it's simpler and makes more sense, but aren't you applying a fix that isn't really there?
Is it an act of civil disobedience (and common sense) that FED should have written, but didn't?
AB, is Oregon/Garrett actually adopting the "ball" scenario v the "kicker"? :!#
-
AB, is Oregon/Garrett actually adopting the "ball" scenario v the "kicker"? :!#
He still says "kicker, but it it is "at the time of the kick", not the time between the RFP and the kick. As it was told to me, an association president/trainer in Oregon took that away from his presentation. That same president/trainer put it in writing and asked Garrett if that was how it was to be ruled, and he said yes, so that's what is being taught.
If we have to have the silly rule, then I like this interpretation, I think it makes sense. It just isn't what they passed coming out of Indy.
-
Thanks AB.
I agree it's a better "take"; but why not take it all the way and say "ball"?
I'll pass this on to our state folks and let you know what they have to say.... hEaDbAnG
-
Thanks AB.
I agree it's a better "take"; but why not take it all the way and say "ball"?
OK, let's change it to BALL. At the time of the kick, there must be 4 players on either side of the ball. Now, how do you count the kicker? If he's right footed, is he on the left side of the ball?
I have no problem with "kicker" as long it's at THE TIME OF THE KICK. It's a combination of "kicker" and "from the RFP to the kick" that creates the problem.