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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: jodibuck on August 12, 2014, 07:17:08 AM
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Team B player "feints" charge but stops before entering the neutral zone. His actions cause Team A lineman to "flinch". What do we have? Veteran officials advised that unless the Team B player has entered the neutral zone, we have a false start on Team A. In this situation, the only foul we could call on Team B would be unsportsmanlike conduct. If Team B had entered the neutral zone at the moment Team A flinched, then we have encroachment on Team B. I thought if Team B made any movement which caused Team A to move would be considered a dead ball penalty on Team B.
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I thought if Team B made any movement which caused Team A to move would be considered a dead ball penalty on Team B.
You have it reversed. Any sudden shift by Team A that causes Team B to encroach is a false start.
The defense may charge the line but as long as they don't enter the neutral zone, it's the responsibility of the offense to not move. If they move, it's a false start. If Team B enters the neutral zone, then it's encroachment. The exception is if the defense is doing anything that's unnatural to the game of football (clapping, shooting the hands, saying "hut", etc) and not just normal "sugaring" up to the line. I believe this is an unsportsmanlike in high school...
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There's probably confusion to the NCAA rules, where the defense linemen (lined up stationary within one yard of LOS) may not make amy quick, abrupt or exaggerated actions that are not part of normal defensive player movement.
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Refer to Case 7.1.7C (pg 52) : "...If the covering official's judgment the action by B1 was for the purpose of disconcerting or hingering A, it is an unsportsmanlike foul. .." A stunting linebacker is one thing, a snorting, growling, wheezing, big ole' Bubba, roaring like a freight train and closing in on puny lil' Sidney -an O-lineman- is another. :!# It's usually easy to tell the difference ^flag
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Would you call a linebacker making a hard charge and stopping inches short of the neutral zone? The hardest thing that I have to judge is whether he is attempting to get movement or just trying to time the snap.
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Page 14 of the The Redding Study Guide to NFHS Football Rules 2014 Edition has some good points on this question.
"Similarly, Team B cannot use disconcerting acts to induce a false start by Team A. The defense is allowed to shift to either side or from lineman to linebacker or vice versa. Also, linebackers and defensive backs who run toward the neutral zone attempting to time their blitz with the snap are not in violation.
However, defensive players are not permitted to deliberately feint a charge to provoke Team A linemen into moving. Team B players who are stationary within one yard of their line of scrimmage are prohibited from making quick non-football related movements in an obvious attempt to draw an offensive player into committing a foul.
Examples of violations include: stomping a foot, clapping hands, quickly standing up or moving to a three- or four-point stance or vice versa, quickly bobbing their head or repeatedly and/or abruptly flexing legs or arms."
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"Similarly, Team B cannot use disconcerting acts to induce a false start by Team A.
However, defensive players are not permitted to deliberately feint a charge to provoke Team A linemen into moving. Team B players who are stationary within one yard of their line of scrimmage are prohibited from making quick non-football related movements in an obvious attempt to draw an offensive player into committing a foul.
Examples of violations include: stomping a foot, clapping hands, quickly standing up or moving to a three- or four-point stance or vice versa, quickly bobbing their head or repeatedly and/or abruptly flexing legs or arms."
With all due respect, I can accept most of the (overly) general language suggested, but as for the examples given (stomping a foot, clapping hands, quickly standing up or moving to a three- or four-point stance or vice versa, quickly bobbing their head or repeatedly and/or abruptly flexing legs or arms) they all amount to "much ado about NOTHING".
As for the differences between responsibilities, and prohibitions, between offense and defense, remember; the offense ENJOYS the distinct advantage of having been told what the snap count is.
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As for the differences between responsibilities, and prohibitions, between offense and defense, remember; the offense ENJOYS the distinct advantage of having been told what the snap count is.
Now, if we could only get them to remember it!
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Would you call a linebacker making a hard charge and stopping inches short of the neutral zone?
I would not, personally
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While I concur that there is a rule-based interpretation for calling a foul on B, I'm driven by an old axiom: "avoid the ridiculous call".
Unless B verbalizes something that simulates A's snap count, my flag goes against A.
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We have some Hudl clips that I have reviewed ad nauseum of a LB doing a similar act (running towards the NZ and stopping perilously close) and we have had the disconcerting acts discussion. What adds to this particular LB's complicity is he will point at a slotback or flanker as his next act which tells me he is purposely trying to conduct himself in an unsporting manner. He was not called on any of it.
Sadly, (or not) in one clip, I am assigned and I either missed the flinch by the flanker or executed frontier justice and didn't flag it. I really don't recall.<insert seeing eyedog thingy here>
My review group agreed that this is an area we'd rather not trod but then again the 4th down snapdown or faux Dallas Cowboy rais up back down 4th dow play began to get thrown into the mix. Then you get the varied opinions- "well nobody was drawn off" or "they better do it every down or none" comments. Chaos erupts and it becomes a good time to go for coffee.
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Acts by A or B that are purely intended to draw the other team to commit a foul remind me of the old Potter Stewart quote about pornography - Difficult to describe, but I know it when I see it. >:D
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Rookie here....what if defensive linebackers are barking at tackles to "move over" or whatever and they are so loud that they are louder than the QB cadence?
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As long as the defense isn't mimicking the offense, you need a louder QB.
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I have asked kids in youth games who are yelling, charging the line, stomping their feet, etc "What are you doing?" and a couple of have replied "Trying to get them to move." Makes it pretty easy to shut that down. I've never asked on Friday night because I'm on the wing.
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I have asked kids in youth games who are yelling, charging the line, stomping their feet, etc "What are you doing?" and a couple of have replied "Trying to get them to move."
The sad part about that is someone likely coached them to do it, or, at a minimum, condoned it.
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I have asked kids in youth games who are yelling, charging the line, stomping their feet, etc "What are you doing?" and a couple of have replied "Trying to get them to move." Makes it pretty easy to shut that down. I've never asked on Friday night because I'm on the wing.
At the youth football level you might eliminate that problem by simply telling them, "STOP doing that". Hopefully on Friday nights, the players are smarter.
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If we believe B is doing so, seems a USC will put a VERY quick end to B enticing A to jump.
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I judge this similar to a false start - it depends on how the action occurs.
If before the snap, a player on the end of the line rises slowly, moves to the backfield and goes in motion - did he do this slowly enough, and did he not simulate movement like he does on a snap?
The same with the defense. If they're moving around, barking out defensive signals, fine. But if they are doing something (I know it when I see it type of 'something') which is meant to cause an offensive player to false start, the defense is getting a penalty.
Moving up to the line quickly as if to blitz is fine, one player on the line suddenly stomping his foot is NOT.
Barking out defensive calls is fine, but barking out sudden noises like 'hut...hut...hut.hut.hut' at the offensive line is NOT.
Youth games? I'm talking to the defense about what is/is not acceptable and giving a warning. Friday night? I'm throwing a flag - they know what they're doing, and I'm putting an end to it quickly.
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At the youth football level you might eliminate that problem by simply telling them, "STOP doing that". Hopefully on Friday nights, the players are smarter.
Smarter as in not trying it? Or smarter as in lying about it?
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Smarter as in not trying it? Or smarter as in lying about it?
That would all depend on how persuadable YOU might be.
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That would all depend on how persuadable YOU might be.
Ah, yes. This this true. pHiNzuP