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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: Orin Robinson on August 16, 2014, 12:46:08 PM
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I need help!
We had a team set up for a kick try. The holder caught the snap then picked up the kicking tee, tossed it back to the kicker who ran around the end. After tossing the tee, the holder rose, rolled out in the opposite direction and threw a pass for the 2 point try.
I say this is not allowed but other than classifying it as an "Unfair Act" I can find no rule prohibiting the use of equipment to deceive.
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Wow, never underestimate the creativity of the American football coach.
You might want to take a look at NFHS 4-2-2-a-exception #1. Keep in mind this EXCEPTION is to the rule which states, "The ball becomes DEAD and the down is ended; (a) When a runner goes OOB, is held so his forward progress is stopped, or allows any part of his person other than hand ot foot to touch the ground
The EXCEPTION allows; (1) the ball remains alive if, at the snap,a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while his knee is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, kick or pass...
The exception does not authorize the ball remaining ALIVE for the holder to displace the kicking tee as you describe, so it seems reasonable to conclude the exception would NOT apply, rendering the ball DEAD, and the play ended.
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To me, this is the same as hiding the ball under a jersey or yelling "Where's the tee?" I flag this one for sure. It is clearly an intent to deceive.
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I agree with Al (see, it happens!). There's no foul, the play is dead. A holder can do two things: he can hold the ball for a kick and use the knee on the ground exception, or he can rise before doing anything else. As soon as he did something with his knee on the ground other than one of those two things or the kicker leaves his position to kick before the holder has risen, the play was dead.
He tried to foul, but he killed the play before he did. Now, if the holder starts in a squat like a catcher and tries this crap, now I could buy the unfair act call.
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Thanks guy's.
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Where do Coaches get the time to think this stuff up?
The biggest thing I would say is as part of my pre-game I always ask the coach for any special plays that they run. Often coaches don't cough them up, but every now and again I am able to explain to the coach how that play isn't legal.
Had one where a coach wanted to yell at his QB that he shoe was untied. As the QB would go down the ball would be snapped to the RB where the play would go off. Had to tell him that play wasn't gonna fly as he was clearly making and effort to deceive the defense.
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Had one where a coach wanted to yell at his QB that he shoe was untied. As the QB would go down the ball would be snapped to the RB where the play would go off. Had to tell him that play wasn't gonna fly as he was clearly making and effort to deceive the defense.
Careful with your wording to a coach. It's not illegal to deceive the defense. It's illegal to deceive the defense with actions that imply the snap is not imminent.
I agree, this is illegal. But it's not illegal because they are deceiving the defense, it's illegal because they are deceiving the defense with actions that imply the snap isn't imminent.
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I need help!
We had a team set up for a kick try. The holder caught the snap then picked up the kicking tee, tossed it back to the kicker who ran around the end. After tossing the tee, the holder rose, rolled out in the opposite direction and threw a pass for the 2 point try.
I say this is not allowed but other than classifying it as an "Unfair Act" I can find no rule prohibiting the use of equipment to deceive.
This is actually specifically covered underneath the Unfair Acts umbrella:
Rule 9-9-4:
No player shall use a kicking tee in violation of Rule 1-3-4
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Rule 9-9-4:
No player shall use a kicking tee in violation of Rule 1-3-4
A kicking tee shall be made of pliable material which elevates the
lowest point of the ball no more than 2 inches above the ground.
I'm not so sure about that is the rule we need, but I do agree it is unsportsmanlike conduct because of 9-9-ART. 5 . . . Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the
referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.
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I agree with Al (see, it happens!). There's no foul, the play is dead. A holder can do two things: he can hold the ball for a kick and use the knee on the ground exception, or he can rise before doing anything else. As soon as he did something with his knee on the ground other than one of those two things or the kicker leaves his position to kick before the holder has risen, the play was dead.
He tried to foul, but he killed the play before he did. Now, if the holder starts in a squat like a catcher and tries this crap, now I could buy the unfair act call.
I agree with your agreeing and wanted to point out IF the holder goes into a catcher's squat, two things happen and neither are good for K....if the holder's knee is not on the ground it is NOT a scrimmage kick formation (2-14-2a)..IE...no numbering exception and no roughing the snapper. :( :(
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Recall what the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said in a pornography case: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."
Now substitute "unfair act or travesty" for ("hard-core pornography") and omit the reference to a motion picture and you pretty much sum it up. In other words,
I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it!
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Sub Topic : using lack of equipment to deceive----(1) A breaks huddle with 7 players standing on LOS; (2) A players are all set for a second, but still standing, when QB points toward sidelines behind B and yells: "Wow, our prom queen's clothes just fell off!!!" ; (3) Several B players turn to ogle as QB takes snap and runs for TD. Would you have ; (1) false start on QB for pointing; (2) Revoke the prom queen's tiara for her wardrobe malfunction; (3) Scan the crowd to see if the same occurred to the prom queen's divorced mom/widowed grandmom - depending on your age and taste; (4) invoke 9-9-1 and announce to the frenzied/bewildered/embarrassed masses : " Taking an unfair advantage of a wardrobe malfunction, will be treated as an inadvertent whistle and the down will be replayed." ; (5) Other.....
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Sub Topic : using lack of equipment to deceive----(1) A breaks huddle with 7 players standing on LOS; (2) A players are all set for a second, but still standing, when QB points toward sidelines behind B and yells: "Wow, our prom queen's clothes just fell off!!!" ; (3) Several B players turn to ogle as QB takes snap and runs for TD. Would you have ; (1) false start on QB for pointing; (2) Revoke the prom queen's tiara for her wardrobe malfunction; (3) Scan the crowd to see if the same occurred to the prom queen's divorced mom/widowed grandmom - depending on your age and taste; (4) invoke 9-9-1 and announce to the frenzied/bewildered/embarrassed masses : " Taking an unfair advantage of a wardrobe malfunction, will be treated as an inadvertent whistle and the down will be replayed." ; (5) Other.....
I won't see the snap or the TD since will also be staring into the stands.
Since I didn't see it, it didn't happen. Bring the ball back here. And if there really was no wardrobe malfunction, flag him 15 yards for being a lying little teenager (or for deceiving the defense into believing the snap wasn't imminent). If there was a wardrobe malfunction, no teenage boy I know would have snapped the ball.
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Obvious false start, since all Team A linemen will jump. cRaZy
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Don't know where Ralph has been for the past couple of days, but this board is certainly more entertaining when he's posting. :bOW
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Don't know where Ralph has been for the past couple of days, but this board is certainly more entertaining when he's posting. :bOW
Sometimes I wonder what's in those lobster martinis he is drinking! ;D