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Football Officiating => National Football League => Topic started by: TampaSteve on January 20, 2015, 07:54:36 AM
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Regarding the current item in the news, I was under the impression the NFL game officials, in essence, have the game balls under their own 'lock and key'. That said, how can NE tinker with the balls?
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Supposedly deflated them on the sideline
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Of course, anything is possible, but EVERY football entering an NFL game (or any other level game) passes through, at least the Umpire's hands, and very likely another official's hands being passed to the Umpire, who, with even a minimum of experience, which is not usually a problem with NFL Umpires, knows full well what both a properly inflated, as well as an under inflated, football feels like.
Is there some actual evidence, or even a "reasonable" suspicion, that something improper took place. This wasn't an otherwise "slow sports news" day, or did someone doze off and miss the game?
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"I heard it through the grapevine" :
(1) Great song that began in a great movie.
(2) The origin that we of patriot Nation heard that started this.
(1) Brady was picked in the 2nd qtr.
(2) Colt D-back reported to their equip. mgr. that their ball felt squishy.
(3) Equip. mgr. reported that to coach.
(4) NFL office was advised.
(5) NFL office notified officials ,at halftime, that there may be a problem.
(6) In the 2nd half, officials tossed out 2 patriot balls that appeared soft.
(7) In the 2nd half, the Patriots scored ^good ^good ^good ^good TDs.
(8) In the 2nd half, the Baby Horses didn't score :'( :'( :'(
(9) In the 2nd half, IMHO, I believe there were many deflated balls...
(a) some were game balls, caused by the dropping temps.
(b) others were........,well this is a G rated forum...so I'll leave it at that nAnA
( :patrioticon: aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd :patrioticon:)
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This is getting blown way out of proportion. It's an issue that needs to be addressed by the NFL if the Patriots were guilty of doing this, but it had little impact on the game. The local Indy media acknowledges it was not the reason they lost, but they like to find anything that would disparage the Patriots.
Hopefully they are guilty and Belichek is banned for life.
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Personally I put nothing pass Belicheat. As far as I am concerned he has been the embodiment of evil since he unceremonially cut Kosar and he has done nothing to disprove it since.
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As Brady said, Ridiculous. Why would a QB want the ball deflated any when he is used to the properly inflated ball. He has played with properly inflated balls for 14 years. Why would he want to try to throw balls that now were different than they have been every day for the last 14 years?
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11 our of 12 found down 2 pounds.
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https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/20/nfl-says-patriots-used-under-inflated-footballs/7UlPZI3eotRTBadM89saeO/story.html
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While I understand the vitriol being dumped on Belicheck - and I'm hardly a Pats fan to begin with (Go Bears!) - it's not like any game ball issues effected the game that much. If he were going to do something, why not save it for the big game in two weeks?
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Jerry Austin on the mike and mike show this morning had some interesting insights and info on the situation. He said the balls were remeasured at half time and this is when 11 were found to be below the rule threshold and the 12th was low but not below 12.5 psi. It can be assumed that the officials then reinflated the balls to spec.
He also said it is SOP for all balls to be checked prior to the game. The circumstantial evidence here is that there was a systematic and probably premeditated plan on the part of the Pats to deflate these balls.
As far as a competitive advantage goes I think it's safe to say a person would be able to grip an under inflated wet ball as opposed to a standard inflated wet ball. Think about the throwing motion as the qb cocks his arm and is about to bring the ball forward. I've seen a handful of plays where the ball just slips out of the qb's hand at this moment, and this is with a dry ball. A wet ball would be harder to handle in this situation, so a slight under pressure in the ball would allow the qb to squeeze the ball more in this moment thus reducing the possibility of a fumble. Same goes for general ball carriers or receivers. The advantage was most likely slight and did not affect the outcome of the game; however, that Pats would not have pulled this shenanigan had there been no upside.
The problem for the Pats and a certain hooded coach in particular is there is precedent for this from them. I'm sure Goodell is beside himself with the PR problem this creates and Kraft can not be impressed. I'm hoping the league drops the hammer in the form of significant draft picks, but I may be biased as I hate the pats being a Chargers fan and all (2006 divisional playoffs anyone?).
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd3D2gsPUR0
Pats should have used this!!
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/21/brad-johnson-paid-a-bribe-to-tamper-with-footballs-at-the-super-bowl/
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Here is a really good 3-part series by MMQB (SI website) on the life of an NFL crew.
In part 3, there is a pretty in-depth description of how balls are handled in the pre-game. Also, of note, this was written during the 2013 season, long before #Deflategate #Shrinkage
Part 1:
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/04/peter-king-spends-week-with-nfl-refs/5/
Part 2:
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/05/peter-king-spends-week-with-nfl-refs-part-two/4/
Part 3:
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/06/peter-king-week-with-officiating-crew-part-three/5/
For those not interested in the whole story, here is a direct link to part about the pre-game inspections:
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/06/peter-king-week-with-officiating-crew-part-three/2/
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One other note: on SVP & Russillo show today, a Boston beat reporter was recalling a few years ago where Brady said he preferred an under-inflated ball, and how the QBs and equipment managers really have alot of control over how the balls are pumped. Sounds like it is likely that Brady has been playing much of his career with the balls inflated on the low end of the specification.
I have yet to hear anyone claim it affected the outcome of the game, but that is not the point. The rules are the rules, and this time, the Pats tried to push the envelope a little too much and got busted.
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http://youtu.be/tSC85_ZdFPY (http://youtu.be/tSC85_ZdFPY)
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The latest -http://nesn.com/2015/02/report-nfl-fires-official-who-gave-patriots-employee-kicking-football/
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Unfortunately the stories coming out now are using the phrase "NFL official" when referring to the ball collector. I wonder if he truly was an "official" or was actually a NFL employee who had that task. And just like in criminal court cases, even though 1 tiny piece of the evidence might be questionable, that is casting a cloud on ALL the evidence.
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You are likely correct - http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantasyfootball/update/25073367/nflra-no-official-has-been-fired-in-connection-with-deflategate
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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FBN_PATRIOTS_DEFLATED_FOOTBALLS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-05-06-13-15-55
How convenient that the report is released 2 days after the draft is over...so the Pats get a whole year to adjust to any loss of picks for their organizational lack of integrity.
#VacateTheLombardi
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Slap on the wrist. That is all this needs. Then the NFL can change the way the balls are handled and monitored. I'm not NE apologist but this is much ado about something very little. hEaDbAnG Bigger fish to fry....like most every stadium piping in recorded crowd noise.
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I disagree. Deliberately tampering with the ball -- and then the cover up about it -- is a problem. $1 M fine, 2 draft picks taken and 4 game suspension for Brady for failing to be open with the League.
Just my humble opinion.
And I don't really care one way or the other about NE -- but I do care about "the integrity of the game."
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But the report said that he "probably" knew about it. They won't suspend with such a small endorsement of guilt.
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But the report said that he "probably" knew about it. They won't suspend with such a small endorsement of guilt.
Have you seen the texts in the report? He knew. Probably means more than 50%. Enough for a finding of liability in a civil lawsuit. Did he run the red light and hit the other car. 51% gets you a liability finding and you are paying for the damage.
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In my state, 51% gets you some liability but not all of it. My last accident, the other driver was 90% at fault. I still paid a portion. Is 51% enough to suspend a star player....I doubt it.
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Is 51% enough to suspend a star player....I doubt it.
I don't believe I'd bet the farm on that. This story isn't over.
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I find it interesting how some in the media are trying to protect their beloved Brady and the Patriots organization by deflcting this towards Walt Anderson (2015 AFC Championship Referee).
From today's MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/11/dante-fowler-jaguars-tom-brady-deflategate-nfl-peter-king/5/
(emphasis mine)
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Bear with me on this one. It’s about an eight- or nine-minute gap in the chain of security for the footballs that were used when the Patriots were on offense in the AFC Championship Game. It’s from the Wells Report. I think it’s important.
The day before the game, Colts GM Ryan Grigson emailed league officials with a warning for the following day. He said he wanted the officials to watch for the Patriots to possibly be using balls that were deflated below the 12.5 psi minimum limit. The next day, the number two man in the NFL officiating department, Alberto Riveron, met with game referee Walt Anderson and told him, according to the Wells Report, that “concerns had been raised about the game balls, and Anderson should be sure to follow proper pre-game procedures.”
This was the timeline in the Wells Report, about the minutes leading up to the 6:50 p.m. ET start of the game:
Approximately 6:30 p.m.: Patriots locker room assistant Jim McNally leaves the officials locker room with two bags of game balls.
6:30.35: McNally is seen on videotape walking through the tunnel in Gillette Stadium on the way to the field.
6:30.47: McNally enters a bathroom in the tunnel. (Not in the Wells Report, but figured out based on the one-minute, 40-second time the report said was how long McNally stayed in the bathroom.)
6:32.27: McNally exits the bathroom.
6:35: After some officials leave for the field, Anderson looks around and cannot find the footballs. The report said he is upset, and said this is the first time in his 19 years as an official the crew was not in control of the footballs consistently before the game.
6:36: Anderson and the NFL security representative in New England, Richard Farley, leave for the field. Once they get to the field, Farley asks an NFL official if he has seen McNally or the footballs. The league official, John Raucci, says he has seen neither.
Time not recorded, but probably about 6:39: Anderson and his crew notice McNally and the game balls are on the field.
6:42: Farley returns to the field with the alternate game balls, but seeing McNally and the regular balls are there, Farley returns the backup footballs to the officials locker room.
So, for eight or nine minutes, from 6:30 until at least 6:38, Anderson and his officiating crew lost track of the footballs. Hours after being warned that “concerns had been raised about the game balls,” for the first time in his 19 years as an official—according to Anderson—he couldn’t find the game balls for a period. And even with properly checked backup game balls on hand, Anderson didn’t use them. He used the footballs that had gone missing for eight or nine minutes.
I know that’s not the main point in this story, nor should it be. But it’s very surprising to me that Anderson didn’t heed the warning from his officiating boss about being extra careful with the footballs.
There’s no guarantee that McNally deflated 13 footballs in the 100 seconds he was inside the bathroom. But it’s clearly the most likely scenario raised by the report. And if Anderson had used the alternates, there’s a good chance none of this ever would have happened.
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In each of the bolded cases, it is interesting to me how it was failings of Anderson and crew when the Patriots clearly had a pattern of cheating. The last bolded item is the one I actually agree with most...even after being warned, Anderson didnt change the balls...b/c if he had, there might never have been an investigation at all...or the punishments soon to be delivered.
Sounds to me like the Boston-native author, Peter King, had some sour grapes that the Pats got caught, and is now trying to throw the officiating crew under the bus.
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And yet there it is -- just as I predicted -- 4 games, $1 M fine and two draft picks. I had 2 No.1's or a 1 and a 2, but they lost a No 1 and No. 4.
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I disagree. Deliberately tampering with the ball -- and then the cover up about it -- is a problem. $1 M fine, 2 draft picks taken and 4 game suspension for Brady for failing to be open with the League.
Just my humble opinion.
And I don't really care one way or the other about NE -- but I do care about "the integrity of the game."
Holy cow, you nailed it!
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Deflection also coming Blandino's way too: http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/05/11/dean-blandino-nfls-officiating-vp-lied-about-deflategate-knowledge/ (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/05/11/dean-blandino-nfls-officiating-vp-lied-about-deflategate-knowledge/)
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I suspect that Goodell went 4 games knowing it would be reduced on appeal. I'm guessing after appeal we end up at 2. Just like in a negotiation - ask for more than you want, so you can "settle" for what you want.
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As a member of Patriot's Nation, I wasn't surprised with the penalties. Brady is a high-profile player and the Pats are a high-profile team. If the guilty parties had been the Bucs and their 3rd string QB, no one outside of Tampa Bay would have known or cared. By "throwing the book" at Brady and the Pats, a message is sent to all : "Even the best best not cross the line P_S". In my days of youth, Paul Hornung was the NFL's Golden Boy until he bet on his own team = one year suspension. Gambling in the NFL has not been a problem since. MLB's "Charlie Hustle" earned a lifetime suspension after "r" was added to his nickname. He,too, bet on his own team and paid the price. Gambling in MLB has not been a problem since. If Bobby Valentine, in his sole year with the last place Bosox, had bet on his team; he probably would have been scolded with : "Lousy bet!!".
Will the suspension/sanctions hold ???? An appeal will follow and probably will be reduced BUT the message will have been sent. tiphat:
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I suspect that Goodell went 4 games knowing it would be reduced on appeal. I'm guessing after appeal we end up at 2. Just like in a negotiation - ask for more than you want, so you can "settle" for what you want.
The suspension is really the most short term piece of this punishment....the more serious thing is the impact to Brady's legacy. He is now, officially, labeled a "cheater", and that will forever tarnish any accomplishment he has.
Interesting how Ralph is strangely silent on this day of days for his beloved Pats. Ultimately, they didnt vacate the Super Bowl win, so he should still be cheering the hositing of a Lombardi aWaRd
If you ask most teams around the league, and definitely most Pats fans, if the price of a Super Bowl trophy was a 1st and 4th round pick, $1M, and 4 games for their best player, I suspect most would take that deal.
Glad to see that integrity won the day for once.
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Dang Ralph!! As if on cue! Well played
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Today's topic related trivia :
Who was the only Super Bowl championship QB who didn't play in his team's opener the following season??
NOTE : "was" is past tense, "will be" we know the answer to... yEs:
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Today's topic related trivia :
Who was the only Super Bowl championship QB who didn't play in his team's opener the following season??
NOTE : "was" is past tense, "will be" we know the answer to... yEs:
Wild guess: Joe Willie.
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Today's topic related trivia :
Who was the only Super Bowl championship QB who didn't play in his team's opener the following season??
NOTE : "was" is past tense, "will be" we know the answer to... yEs:
Big Ben?
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DallasLJ wins the Kewpie Doll aWaRd. Big Ben set out the season opener in, I believe, 2006 with a deflated appendix. I believe BROADway Joe was taking snaps for the Jets following his Super Bowl victory.
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As a member of Patriot's Nation, I wasn't surprised with the penalties. Brady is a high-profile player and the Pats are a high-profile team. If the guilty parties had been the Bucs and their 3rd string QB, no one outside of Tampa Bay would have known or cared. By "throwing the book" at Brady and the Pats, a message is sent to all : "Even the best best not cross the line P_S". In my days of youth, Paul Hornung was the NFL's Golden Boy until he bet on his own team = one year suspension. Gambling in the NFL has not been a problem since. MLB's "Charlie Hustle" earned a lifetime suspension after "r" was added to his nickname. He,too, bet on his own team and paid the price. Gambling in MLB has not been a problem since. If Bobby Valentine, in his sole year with the last place Bosox, had bet on his team; he probably would have been scolded with : "Lousy bet!!".
Will the suspension/sanctions hold ???? An appeal will follow and probably will be reduced BUT the message will have been sent. tiphat:
Not only Paul Horning, Alex Karras was caught up in the betting probe and hanging around undesirable gents.
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Not only Paul Horning, Alex Karras was caught up in the betting probe and hanging around undesirable gents.
Good point,Steve. From what I recall, Hornung quickly apologized and pleaded for mercy while Karras told the NFL what the "F" really stood for and took up pro wrestling. Both were suspended for one year. I believe Commish Roselle said something to the effect of : "...they both did the same thing, they both receive the same penalty, how they feel about it, is their business and not mine." P_S P_S
Sorta' like a stance Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis took many years prior in another sport. P_S P_S P_S P_S P_S P_S P_S P_S
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Per Adam Schefter
Regarding NFL decision to uphold Brady suspension, here is league statement:
In the opinion informing Brady that his appeal had been denied, Commissioner Goodell emphasized important new information disclosed by Brady and his representatives in connection with the hearing.
On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed. He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady.
Based on the Wells Report and the evidence presented at the hearing, Commissioner Goodell concluded in his decision that Brady was aware of, and took steps to support, the actions of other team employees to deflate game footballs below the levels called for by the NFL's Official Playing Rules. The commissioner found that Brady’s deliberate destruction of potentially relevant evidence went beyond a mere failure to cooperate in the investigation and supported a finding that he had sought to hide evidence of his own participation in the underlying scheme to alter the footballs.
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THOSE BOSTON PATRIOTS OUR MONTREAL/MAINE ALOUETTES
winner of 4 Super Bowls winner of 7 Grey Cups
Foxboro has : parking lots Montreal has : St. Catherine St. ;)
10 US $ = 1 Budwiser 10 US $=12 Can Loonie=2 LaBatts
270.56 mi. Bangor - Foxboro 317.42 mi. Bangor - Montreal
(those 46.86 miles go fast!)
touchback = 0 points rouge = 1 point
VIVA LA" POMME D"TERRE ( long live the potato- Maine's favorite crop of harvest)
VIVA LES ALOUETTES (Mainer's new favorite team- It's often "fair weather" up here. tiphat:
pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn pi1eOn
;D
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I don't believe I'd bet the farm on that. This story isn't over.
Perhaps the biggest understatement in history here.
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Perhaps the biggest understatement in history here.
Notice the date it was posted.
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Notice the date it was posted.
Yeah, I know. Just, who would have thought it would get to this point.
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Yeah, I know. Just, who would have thought it would get to this point.
That would be me. I'm not the least bit surprised.
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The NFL is still messing this up. From what I see there is now a form to fill out, 24 footballs, 12 to be played and 12 backups. Test, record and mark each 1-12 and 13-24. But you still hand the balls over to the equipment manager. Make the whole league ownership pay for the con. And let the ownership know this is because of the Player's Union and the challenge to the authority of the Commissioner, plus the cheating of New England. I'm sure the added cost will be greatly appreciated by the rest of the owners, though the cost is minor.
Provide a league approved pressure reader three times during the season. Have the old gauge returned for league testing. No unauthorized pressure readers in the bag.
1. There are many NCAA Officials wanting to move into the NFL. Add two Officials for every game. $500 game fee plus expenses paid, all by the home team owner. NFL assigns the officials.
2. Teams deliver two bags of footballs 12 balls each bag. Follow procedures, record pressure readings for balls 1-12 and balls 13-24. Official takes bag and he is the ball boy. Official two takes second bag, he is the ball boy. At the end of the first half test the balls for the sake of the silly lab tests performed trying to prove balls deflate in a test chamber. Take the second bag 13-24 to the field for the second half. Bring the bag back and test, record pressures and file report.
No lost chain of custody. Works far better in a court of law.
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Drama with a happy ending aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd.
The game balls were fine, the Steeler head-sets were not;
I believe that during WWII, Tokyo Rose and Axis Annie played distracting and annoying
messages to our GIs.
Forcing the Steelers to listen to the Patriots Radio Network was probably similar.
aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd......2016 aWaRd???