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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: cperezprg on June 04, 2015, 03:05:21 AM
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Besides the A.R. and the rom gilbert website, do you know any documentation about substitution examples? What is foul and what is not, Live ball fouls or Dead Ball fouls, ...
I feel that there's always discussion with these plays, at least here in my country.
Thanks
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Here are some examples I am studying. Any help will be appreciated, to determine if there is a foul or not, which one and if it's a live or dead ball.
I. Offense, 10 players in formation, set for a full second, a substitute enters the field and becomes a player, (a) he (and rest of team) stops for a full second before snap (b) he stops and immediately the ball is snapped before a full second.
II. Offense, 10 players in formation, set for a full second, a substitute enters the field, communicate with his teammates but doesn't make the 9 yards mark
III. Offense, 10 players in formation, set for a full second, a substitute enters the field and becomes a player, when the ball is snapped he is still moving (a) forward, (b) lateral or backwards (behind his neutral zone; no encroachment)
IV. Offense, 11 players on the field (not in formation), a substitute enters the field, become a player and leaves the field before a three-second interval realizing he shouldn't be there.
V. Offense, 11 players on the field (not in formation), a substitute enters the field, become a player and a teammate leaves the field before a three-second interval.
VI. Offense, 11 players on the field (set in formation), a substitute enters the field, become a player and a he or a teammate leaves the field before a three-second interval.
VII. After a charged team timeout, Referee whistles ball ready for play, 12 offensive players are on the field going to their positions, they realize there's an extra player and are discussing who is going out, after 5 seconds a player goes out, they have never been set in formation.
VIII. Defense, 10 players on the field, a substitute enters the field and becomes a player (a) before the snap (b) after the snap. Is it different if they are set in formation or not?
IX. Defense, 12 players on field in formation, (a) snap is imminent (b) 12th player is running out of the field but he’s still on the field (near sideline) when the ball is snapped.
My apologizes if something isn't clear or misspelled.
Thanks
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Usually, if the action can be made legal before the snap, it should be considered a live ball foul happening at the snap (false start of the second kind is the notable exception to this).
Here are some examples I am studying. Any help will be appreciated, to determine if there is a foul or not, which one and if it's a live or dead ball.
I. Offense, 10 players in formation, set for a full second, a substitute enters the field and becomes a player, (a) he (and rest of team) stops for a full second before snap (b) he stops and immediately the ball is snapped before a full second.
a) legal, b) false start, dead ball
II. Offense, 10 players in formation, set for a full second, a substitute enters the field, communicate with his teammates but doesn't make the 9 yards mark
False start, dead ball, if all 11 players do not stop for a full second. Otherwise live ball foul for illegal substitution.
III. Offense, 10 players in formation, set for a full second, a substitute enters the field and becomes a player, when the ball is snapped he is still moving (a) forward, (b) lateral or backwards (behind his neutral zone; no encroachment)
DB FS.
IV. Offense, 11 players on the field (not in formation), a substitute enters the field, become a player and leaves the field before a three-second interval realizing he shouldn't be there.
DB SUI.
V. Offense, 11 players on the field (not in formation), a substitute enters the field, become a player and a teammate leaves the field before a three-second interval.
Legal.
VI. Offense, 11 players on the field (set in formation), a substitute enters the field, become a player and a he or a teammate leaves the field before a three-second interval.
a) DB SUI, b) legal, hold the snap for team B to be able to match up.
VII. After a charged team timeout, Referee whistles ball ready for play, 12 offensive players are on the field going to their positions, they realize there's an extra player and are discussing who is going out, after 5 seconds a player goes out, they have never been set in formation.
DB SUI.
VIII. Defense, 10 players on the field, a substitute enters the field and becomes a player (a) before the snap (b) after the snap. Is it different if they are set in formation or not?
a) legal, b) LB SUI. No difference if the team is in formation or not.
IX. Defense, 12 players on field in formation, (a) snap is imminent (b) 12th player is running out of the field but he’s still on the field (near sideline) when the ball is snapped.[/i]
a) DB SUI, b) LB SUI
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Hi Kalle, thank you very very much for your post. Most of them I had the same original idea, others you give me the final 'spark' for understanding the rules.
However, ther are some things I would like to comment if you can help me just a liitle more.
II. I think this is always a dead ball foul, not for SUI foul but for illegal procedure. Last years there was an editorial change that ruled the 9-yards-mark requirement as a dead ball foul. 7-1-3-b-1
VII. When should the whistle sound? After the 3 seconds or when the player leaves the field? This is important if the team request a timeout.
Again, thanks.
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Hi Kalle, thank you very very much for your post. Most of them I had the same original idea, others you give me the final 'spark' for understanding the rules.
However, ther are some things I would like to comment if you can help me just a liitle more.
II. I think this is always a dead ball foul, not for SUI foul but for illegal procedure. Last years there was an editorial change that ruled the 9-yards-mark requirement as a dead ball foul. 7-1-3-b-1
VII. When should the whistle sound? After the 3 seconds or when the player leaves the field? This is important if the team request a timeout.
Again, thanks.
Agreed on II. Dead ball foul.
VII - I don't think you have to be "set" in formation. I think you just need to be out there where the defense is covering/reacting to you.
*Foul code police*
ILS - Illegal Substitution
FST - False Start
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II. I think this is always a dead ball foul, not for SUI foul but for illegal procedure. Last years there was an editorial change that ruled the 9-yards-mark requirement as a dead ball foul. 7-1-3-b-1
Agreed. Missed that change.
VII. When should the whistle sound? After the 3 seconds or when the player leaves the field? This is important if the team request a timeout.
I read your explanation as a linear sequence of events (this is the normal way of writing play situations), so the whistle sounded first, and then team A spends more than three seconds figuring out who should leave. If the sequence is that team A is already aware of the problem before the whistle and the 12th player starts to leave within the three-second interval, then it is obviously legal.
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Sorry for the bad explanation. In VII, I was asking when should the 'dead ball foul' whistle sound? I meant, Ref whistles the ball ready to play after timeout, 12 players on field, ...
After 4 seconds and still 12 players on field, coach quickly request a time-out, should we granted it and no foul or throw the flag?
Thanks.
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I'm not going to nitpick the three second rule when the team burns a timeout to avoid the penalty.
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For IX-b, can anyone point me to the mechanic or guideline that tells us when we should blow it dead vs. let it go and call it a live ball foul? I seem to remember something about the offense being about to snap and he was outside the numbers being a guideline but can't find it in writing anywhere.
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There are a few plays on the CFO 2015 video that just came out that illustrate these situations. Take a look.
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:( I don't have access to the CFO website, thanks anyway.