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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: ETXZebra on July 28, 2015, 10:29:36 AM
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Did I misunderstand or did they say the test would be posted Monday, July 27?????
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I heard that it would be "early next week"...so anytime before EOD Wed would probably qualify.
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I received an email stating it would be available Wednesday, July 29th.
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For the life of me I don't get why there seems to be such a strong "need" around the state that the test be out "right now". There may be some legitimate reasons, i.e. maybe a Chapter has established some requirements that require a test score before they can do something. If that is the case then I understand. But if there is nothing like that, what does it matter? The test bank has grown considerably and requires vetting to make sure everything is in accordance with the latest editorial changes and rule changes. And it requires more than one person looking at it to make sure this gets done. Past tests have been pushed out at times without complete vetting only to result in mistakes being found and then complicated adjustments being made to all the tests taken with a certain question.
And since most guys do not even have a rulebook to refer to, I would think most guys would want to wait anyway.
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The test is up. Just took it.
I disagree with Mike. I want to get this stuff out of the way as soon as possible. Due to the way we assign scrimmages, we're still waiting for that to get sorted out. Plus, I'm going to give a presentation at a meeting in a week or two, so I want to concentrate on that.
I used to have recurring nightmares about being in school and and totally forgetting that I had a particular class, then finding out about the final too late. This was after I graduated (and such never actually happened). If I didn't get the test done soon after it came out, I might have similar nightmares! But that's just me.
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Any questions you question?
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You mean other than the 40 I missed?
What I forgot to mention earlier is I need all the time I can get to pass!!
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What I forgot to mention earlier is I need all the time I can get to pass!!
Time in the rule book helps solve that problem. :sTiR:
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My only complaint would be could you bold the words behind or beyond. ;D ;D those trip me up sometimes..... LOL test was fine, no issues
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Clarification on 4th down fumble rule: (correct me if Im wrong)
--on a muff or backward pass, the ball remains live even if a Team A player (other than fumbler) possesses the ball
--on an actual fumble, only the fumbler may recover and advance. Any other Team A player that possesses the ball causes it to become dead.
correct?
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10-4 (And then ball may have to be moved depending on where it was recovered)
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See...this is how fried my brain is...when you said 10-4, I started for my rule book....
cRaZy
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One thing that many tend to forget with the 4th down fumble rule is that a loss of player possession on an attempted hand off is a fumble by the last player in possession. I had a play in a jr high game last year that illustrated this point. It was 4th and 1 and the QB and RB missed the exchange and the ball bounced forward and the RB fell on it beyond the line to gain. But by rule it was a fumble by the QB and had to be brought back to the spot of the fumble and turned over to Team B since that was behind the line to gain.
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Any questions you question?
Not a question, but the explanation to an answer. The answer, and particularly the explanation run contrary to one of this year's new AR's. Are we allowed to post specific questions here? I don't want to say more than I should since the test is still being taken by many.
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I would say, go ahead and post the questions. It will only help everyone to begin discussions. I for one would like to see the discussion. I'm sort of a newbie.
Thanks for the comments.
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Not a question, but the explanation to an answer. The answer, and particularly the explanation run contrary to one of this year's new AR's. Are we allowed to post specific questions here? I don't want to say more than I should since the test is still being taken by many.
My understanding is that there is a larger bank of test questions than just the 50 you get on one instance of the test. If you have a specific question that warrants discussion, I see no issue. That is no different than a crew getting together and taking the test together while discussing/talking through the questions...The purpose of the test is to push us deeper into our rulebook. #missionaccomplished.
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OK, I have a question about the test;
"Prior to kickoff of a game the Referee may elect to equally reduce the 4 quarters of playing time due to the report of a storm with lightening approaching the field."
True
False
The explanation given is 3-2-2.
I don't see where a R has the authority to equally reduce the 4 quarters of the game due to a storm approaching. The rule only states "darkness".
Maybe a learned person can direct me to where in the rulebook I can find the "storm with lightening approaching" scenario. ???
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It's an editorial change in the 2015 book. 3-2-2 now reads "darkness or other conditions".
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Before the game starts, playing time and the intermission between halves may be shortened by the referee if he is of the opinion that darkness or other conditions may interfere with the game
This is straight out of the rule, Phantom, so I'm not sure what your confusion is over.
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I missed this one too but it was because I was trying to do it the first time without the book...I thought that the R would need agreement by both head coaches.
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Any word on the "New Members" Test?
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"A19 on the opening kickoff surprises the receiving team by kicking the ball into the ground. B82 is positioned to recover the ball at the A-49 after it has bounced twice, when he is contacted by A32 as A32 subsequently recovers the kick."
I have no KCI because the ball bounced twice.
6-4-1-f "During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the
ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is
kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the
ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly
off the tee."
Dead ball when recovered by kicking team. Anyone have something different?
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You are correct, ball dead when recovered by Team A. But, ball did not travel 10 yards before touched by Team A. Illegal touching.
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Ahhh...I read A-49, but my head was thinking on B's side of the restraining line. Thanks!
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Dead-ball fouls by opposing teams do not offset. When the order of occurrence can be determined, the penalties are enforced in that order.
True
False (correct answer)
What about FS on team A and USC on team B? Offset these? Not a good question in MHO (as an educator)
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My thinking is that its false because of the exception.
Dead-Ball Fouls
ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and
in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-III) [Exception: When dead-ball
unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the
referee and none of the penalties have been completed, the yardage penalties
cancel and the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred
is unaffected. Any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and
10-2-2-a)].
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But the question does not mention what type of fouls they are. Only dead ball PF and UNS are offset according to the exception. Why I said poor question.
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Any questions you question?
How about this one:
4th & 4 at the A-45. Ball carrier A36 fumbles at the A-46 and the ball is subsequently recovered by B77 at the B-47. An inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is loose.
This was what is shown as the correct answer.
Team A may elect to repeat the down at the previous spot or Team A may elect to put the ball in play where possession was lost.
I want someone to explain how Team A is going to have an option to next put the ball in play where possession was lost. I realize that this is the applicable rule but that doesn't mean all elements are viable options. This was 4th down and possession was lost short of the line to gain. The way I see it the only option team A has is to replay at the previous spot otherwise they give the ball to B which they won't do.
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Why would A not have the option of replaying the down where possession was lost? Just because it was fourth down doesn't take away any of the options. What rules support would you use to deny them that option?
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They can take the ball at that spot OR repeat the down. By taking it short of the line to gain on 4th down it would be Team B's ball.
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The rule specifically says they can put the ball in play at that spot, not have possession there.
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Correct, but not replay the down.
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So which down will they play?
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I'm not arguing the answer to the question. I agree 100% with it that they have both options. I'm just saying why would they. They can choose either option but not both. If they take it at the spot where possession was lost and it was 4th down, and they are short of the line to gain, it would be Team B's ball just as any 4th down scrimmage down that failed to reach the line to gain. If they choose to replay the down you go back to the previous spot and replay.
It's like a untouched free kick out of bounds. They have 4 options. They can back them up 5 and rekick, take it at the inbounds spot, take it at inbounds spot plus five yards or take 30 yards from spot of the kick. If the ball goes out at the Team B 45 why wouldn't they take it at the 50, rather than at the 45 or the 30? The 4 options are still there but 2 of them would not be smart.
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So if Team A's coach says they want to put the ball in play at the spot of the fumble, what are you going to do? If I'm understanding your post correctly, you would give the ball to Team B. But that's not what the rule says. The rule says the fumbling team can put the ball in play at that spot. If you give Team B the ball, the fumbling team is no longer putting the ball in play. I'm not seeing how it being 4th down affects that.
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So which down will they play?
If it had been 3rd down and they wanted to put it in play where they lost possession what down would it be?
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I would say third.
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So you're saying that with inadvertent whistle they get a free down? The rule says they put the ball in play where possession was lost OR repeat the down. Not both. The whistle signals the end of the down.
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So how do you reconcile that with the fact that if it happens on 4th down the rule says the fumbling team still gets to next put the ball in play?
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One or both of us are confused. The key here is that was a 4th down play and they didn't make the line to gain. It may be poorly worded, but it's just like the book says when a legal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing team at the previous spot. Not on a 4th down play!!
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This is one of those situations where words matter. After an incomplete forward pass, the ball BELONGS to the passing team at the previous spot. Rule 2-4-2 says:
"'Belongs to', as contrasted with 'in possession' denotes custody of a dead ball. Such custody may be temporary, because the ball must next be put in play in accordance with the rules governing the existing situation."
So even though the dead ball "belongs to" Team A after an incomplete legal forward pass, it is temporary because they failed to reach the line to gain and now Team B will next put the ball in play.
But the IW provision doesn't say the ball "belongs to" the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble. The rule specifically says the fumbling team can PUT THE BALL IN PLAY at the spot of the fumble. That is the difference between the two.
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Maybe this will help. Rule 2-27-1; Team A is the team that is designated to put the ball in play, and Team B is the opponent. The teams retain these designations until the ball is next ready for play.
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Regardless of how you read this, the only option is previous spot and replay the down. Team A doesn't get to keep the yardage and replay the down.
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Can we use some common sense. Take the fumble out of the equation. On a typical run play, when there is an IW, Team A has the option to replay the down, or take the result of the play (where the ball was when the IW made the ball dead). Team A will evaluate the down and distance scenarios and make the decision that makes sense. The fumble in this Rule Question is basically the same. So, take the same question, and instead of 4th and 5, it is 4th and 15. The runner gains 13 yards when the fumble happens and then the IW occurs. Are you seriously going to say that Team A has the option to (1) replay 4th and 15 or (2) have it be 4th and 2 from the spot of the fumble.
That just does not make sense. How you you going to explain to the Coach for Team B that the Play didn't happen but Team A just advanced the ball 13 yards? Don't over read the rule.
So, the real result in this scenario, is that Team A has only 1 real option - to replay the down. Taking the ball where possession was lost and accepting the play -- leaves them short of the line to gain and results in Team B ball.
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And that is exactly why I have a problem with the question or more specifically the answer that is deemed to be correct. If TASO wants us to just spout back the rule reference then so be it. But in practical application the only correct answer is that A can and will choose to replay the down.
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And that is exactly why I have a problem with the question or more specifically the answer that is deemed to be correct. If TASO wants us to just spout back the rule reference then so be it. But in practical application the only correct answer is that A can and will choose to replay the down.
I agree it is a bad test question. Showed up twice on my test -- missed it both times because I am not giving Team B the ball.
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But there are options. We had a coach a few years ago wanted the ball at the inbounds spot on a free kick out of bounds, which was at the 23. I kept telling him he options, but it wouldn't listen. He got it at the 23.
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In the original play, you wouldn't even give team A an option. You'd just put it back at the previous spot and replay the down. Just like obvious penalty enforcements.
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4th and 5 from the A-46 yd line. During the scrimmage kick, A76 holds an oncoming rusher at the A44. Team B subsequently returns the kick to the A-37 yd line.
Can someone please help me with this question. Of the answers it was none of the above. And after looking in the rulebook it still didn't make sense to me. Thanks in advance.
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It going to be hard when we don't know what the possible answers were. Post the answer choices.
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It going to be hard when we don't know what the possible answers were. Post the answer choices.
Sorry.
4th and 5 from the A-46 yd line. During the scrimmage kick, A76 holds an oncoming rusher at the A44. Team B subsequently returns the kick to the A-37 yd line.
a. Replay the down 4th and 17 from the A34.
b. Team B must decline the penalty to retain the ball.
c. The penalty requires post scrimmage kick enforcement.
d. None of the above
Explanation
10-2-4
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It is a Team A foul so PSK is not an option - scratch answer C
It is a Team A foul that qualifies for "tack on" so b does not have to decline the penalty to keep the ball - scratch answer B
The foul was during a scr kick so enfo spot is prev spot so no way it can be enforced from A-44 (which is behind the LOS anyway) - scratch answer A
What does that leave?
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Dead-ball fouls by opposing teams do not offset. When the order of occurrence can be determined, the penalties are enforced in that order.
True
False (correct answer)
What about FS on team A and USC on team B? Offset these? Not a good question in MHO (as an educator)
The way I read these type "questions" (statements really) is that it is an ALWAYS TRUE statement unless I can find an example of when it would not be true. If I can find such a situation then the ALWAYS TRUE statement is false. While you found an example where the statement would be true, the statement is not ALWAYS TRUE, so the correct test answer would be F
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Question #21
Full back A44 is hit and stumbles forward as some part of his body other than his hands or feet touches the ground. The live ball becomes dead and the official should sound their whistle.
a. True
b. False
Why I hate TASO test questions. This is a False statement. Yet the answer is True. Please let me know everyone on here knows why this question is False?
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Why are you saying this is a false statement? Because it didn't specify that A44 is the ball carrier?
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Question #21
Full back A44 is hit and stumbles forward as some part of his body other than his hands or feet touches the ground. The live ball becomes dead and the official should sound their whistle.
a. True
b. False
Why I hate TASO test questions. This is a False statement. Yet the answer is True. Please let me know everyone on here knows why this question is False?
The correct answer is TRUE. If the program scored that as an incorrect answer than it must be due to a coding error.
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Why are you saying this is a false statement? Because it didn't specify that A44 is the ball carrier?
Exactly they never said he was the ball carrier. The whole the FB has the ball is critical to the question in determining an answer. Which makes the statement False. Period end of story. Poorly written question.
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If you got that wrong for that reason, you're reading waaaaaaay toooooo much into these questions. I never even thought that he wasn't the ball carrier.
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If you got that wrong for that reason, you're reading waaaaaaay toooooo much into these questions. I never even thought that he wasn't the ball carrier.
My thoughts exactly!
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Exactly they never said he was the ball carrier. The whole the FB has the ball is critical to the question in determining an answer. Which makes the statement False. Period end of story. Poorly written question.
Dude...please....The test is not written to trick anyone. For the question to mean anything other than the fact A44 was the ball carrier would be a trick question. If you would answer the questions quickly and not let your mind wander, you would have less problems.