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Football Officiating => National Football League => Topic started by: Rulesman on January 10, 2016, 09:02:16 AM
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Do NFL rules provide for the ability to eject for flagrant acts? If not, they should. If they do, the crew lost control. JMO. SMH. ???
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Without wanting to pre-judge... what flagrant act would you think warranted ejection?
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There were three hits that, under NCAA rules, would be considered targeting with ejections.
1) Williams hitting Wheaton in the 2nd quarter. Argued as a "bad call" since Wheaton may or may not have been "defenseless" at that point, it was still forceable contact above the shoulders.
2) Shazier hitting Bernard at the end of the 3rd quarter. No call on the play, but Shazier lead with the crown of his helmet and hit Bernard's chin.
3) Burfect hitting Brown at the end of the game. No way you can ever defend that hit.
At the very least, Burfect's hit should have included an ejection.
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What he said.
These 2 teams don't like each other. Fines had already been leveled for actions in a previous game. Flags and talk-tos didn't work. At some point, there has to be "enough already", and give the officials the power to get rid of the thugs. There were plenty of them on the field last night, including a HOF o-line coach (and former head coach) who was caught on camera pulling an opponent by the hair and spinning him around OOB and well inside of the team box. This game was an embarrassment to the NFL. It now appears at least one suspension is forthcoming.
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Do NFL rules provide for the ability to eject for flagrant acts? If not, they should. If they do, the crew lost control. JMO. SMH. ???
To answer the original question, most penalties that carry 15 yards also allow for disqualification if deemed flagrant. i.e. "Penalty: For unnecessary roughness: Loss of 15 yards and an automatic first down. The player may be disqualified if the action is judged by the official(s) to be flagrant."
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http://youtu.be/PxE3mDx7yBU
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000620170/Ryan-Shazier-takes-down-Gio-Bernard-causes-fumble
http://youtu.be/-tfLncD3pGM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25444581/steelers-mike-munchak-facing-significant-fine-for-pulling-reggie-nelsons-hair
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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To answer the original question, most penalties that carry 15 yards also allow for disqualification if deemed flagrant. i.e. "Penalty: For unnecessary roughness: Loss of 15 yards and an automatic first down. The player may be disqualified if the action is judged by the official(s) to be flagrant."
Then I stand on my original statement that this crew lost complete control of this game.
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An opposing view...
2015 POSTSEASON, COMMENTARY, FOLLOW-UP, NEWS
Parry playoff crew displays shock and awe in calling a strict game
by Mark Schultz • January 10, 2016 • 13 Comments
John Parry’s crew set the tone in the pregame warm-ups: There would not be a repeat of the Week 14 nonsense between the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cincinnati Bengals. That game featured several altercations that later drew league fines.
Parry’s crew put on a visible display in the pregame. The entire crew, including alternates spread out across the 50-yard line and made sure no player stepped over the line into the “no-fly zone.” Officials patrol this demilitarized zone in the regular season, but very rarely do we see an entire crew on patrol.
The first real trouble occurred late in the first quarter when Steelers Offensive Line Coach, Mike Munchak, mixed it up on the sidelines with a Bengals player. Side judge Scott Novak (in his first playoff game in his first season of eligibility) moved in to play peacemaker. When Munchak kept stirring the pot, Novak threw the flag and called Munchak for unsportsmanlike conduct.
There were several occasions in the first half when Parry’s crew called unsportsmanlike conduct or unnecessary roughness on seemingly minor incidents that would normally call for a “talk-to” where officials warn players tone it down. Not so with Parry’s crew. When it doubt they threw a flag.
The teams finally lit the tinderbox at the 1:31 mark of the 3rd quarter. The Steelers Ryan Shazier went in with his helmet and laid out the Bengals Giovani Bernard. The Bengals screamed for a flag. Bernard left the field under his own power and even ran to the locker room. But, as Barnard lay on the field both teams started jawing at each other. Officiating analyst Mike Carey on CBS said Bernard was becoming a runner, wasn’t defenseless and called it a legal but “unfortunate” hit. On ESPN former official and supervisor Jim Daopoulos said it should have been a flag.
When the Bengals had to keep their poise late in the fourth quarter, they failed miserably and it cost them the game. Back judge Perry Paganelli flagged Vontaze Burfict for a personal foul, leading with his head when he hit a defenseless receiver over the middle. The penalty moved the Steelers into make-able field goal range. During the injury timeout, Adam Jones started to mix it up with assistant coach Joey Porter and drew a flag, turning it into a chip-shot field goal, made by the Steelers. Field judge Buddy Horton threw the flag on Jones.
(Porter was on-field with the medical staff during an injury timeout, which escalated with back-and-forth chirping, leading the Bengals defense to swarm around him. Porter was no saint in all of this, but his actions were not quite enough to draw a penalty.)
Many fans might criticize Parry’s crew for throwing so many flags and injecting themselves into the game.
Too bad. The officials had a choice to make: Either try to manage the mayhem, or flag it out of existence. The crew chose the latter.
Parry and his crew sent an early message that they were not going to tolerate any silliness out of either team that night, and it was up to the coaches and players to change their behavior and stay within the boundaries drawn by the zebras.
The Bengals and Steelers hate each other. Put that hate into a playoff game, and it is a near impossible situation to control. Parry and crew did their absolute best in keeping a lid on things Saturday night, and I am proud of the work they did.
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This was the thing that I couldn't understand-
Officiating analyst Mike Carey on CBS said Bernard was becoming a runner, wasn’t defenseless and called it a legal but “unfortunate” hit.
Is "defenseless" a condition for an illegal helmet contact foul?
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Is "defenseless" a condition for an illegal helmet contact foul?
If he's a runner then contact with the helmet (not spearing) would not be a flag (as I understand it).
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If he's a runner then contact with the helmet (not spearing) would not be a flag (as I understand it).
Sure as heck looked like spearing though! haha
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yes I agree
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"(Porter was on-field with the medical staff during an injury timeout, which escalated with back-and-forth chirping, leading the Bengals defense to swarm around him. Porter was no saint in all of this, but his actions were not quite enough to draw a penalty.)"
Actually, Porter being on the field alone could have been enough to draw a penalty, I think. And if not, the fact that he got into it with an opposing player sure as heck should have resulted on a USC on him, too, IMHO.
I'm a Bears fan, so I had no dog in the fight, so to speak. I'm also not sure how the hit on Hill wasn't called spearing, but Lord knows I've missed enough flags in my time to understand that the officials could have just had a human moment and missed it. And with the way Burfict was on (and over) the edge all night, I think the PF late in the game could have been deemed flagrant and earned an EJ.
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I'm not necessarily faulting the officials on the field, for not calling the foul on Shazier's hit on Bernard,I am sure this game was extremely difficult to work, but I am questioning Mike Carey's interpretation of it.
An "unfortunate" hit? If it's legal, there is nothing unfortunate about the hit. It is unfortunate that Bernard was knocked out (and depending on your point of view that he fumbled) as a result of the hit, but if it's legal, it's legal.
If on the other hand, it is not (or is not supposed to be) legal, but is one of those instances where "you just don't call that there" as I have heard some people say, (like pass interference on a Hail Mary at the end of the game), then that's a different story. Shazier's hit on Bernard seemed a textbook example of the type of hit that you would want to flag if you are really serious about player safety.
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http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/bengals-steelers-referees-vontaze-burfict-antonio-brown-joey-porter/
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Officiating analyst Mike Carey on CBS said Bernard was becoming a runner, wasn’t defenseless and called it a legal but “unfortunate” hit.
Is "defenseless" a condition for an illegal helmet contact foul?
Does anyone else cringe when Jim Nantz asks for Mike Carey's analysis? He's been proved wrong by the onfield officiating crew or the replay numerous times that I can remember. I cannot believe CBS sticks with him.
That being said, he's completely wrong in this instance. NFL rule 12.2.6.i: using any part of a player’s helmet or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Please note, Mike, the term defenseless is not a qualifier for this penalty.
If Shazier's hit on Bernard was not spearing, they might as well toss this rule. Clearly lowering, leading and targeting with the crown of his helmet. He also puts it right on Gio's chin, so it's head to head spearing which If I'm wearing the stripes out there, Shazier gets an early shower. Brutal hit and I will say it again, if the NFL wants to remain operational in 10 years, these hits have to go.
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Does anyone else cringe when Jim Nantz asks for Mike Carey's analysis?
Yes every time, at first I thought it was me, however he seems to be wrong far too often.
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Does anyone else cringe when Jim Nantz asks for Mike Carey's analysis? He's been proved wrong by the onfield officiating crew or the replay numerous times that I can remember. I cannot believe CBS sticks with him.
That being said, he's completely wrong in this instance. NFL rule 12.2.6.i: using any part of a player’s helmet or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Please note, Mike, the term defenseless is not a qualifier for this penalty.
If Shazier's hit on Bernard was not spearing, they might as well toss this rule. Clearly lowering, leading and targeting with the crown of his helmet. He also puts it right on Gio's chin, so it's head to head spearing which If I'm wearing the stripes out there, Shazier gets an early shower. Brutal hit and I will say it again, if the NFL wants to remain operational in 10 years, these hits have to go.
Thank you. I thought I was missing something. Since I don't know the NFL Rule book all that well, I would like to defer to the interpreter, but that just seemed too wrong for me to accept.
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Yes every time, at first I thought it was me, however he seems to be wrong far too often.
Maybe there's a reason he's no longer on the field.
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Burfict suspended 3 games.
More suspensions/fines to follow?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000621200/article/vontaze-burfict-suspended-three-games-by-nfl
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Do NFL rules provide for the ability to eject for flagrant acts? If not, they should. If they do, the crew lost control. JMO. SMH. ???
I'd certainly have had ejections for some of those hits. But rather than come down on Parry & Co. for losing control of the game, here's an alternate explanation that's at least plausible: They were doing exactly what was expected of them.
I can easily imagine it being the (possibly unspoken, possibly not) policy that ejections in playoff games simply do not happen for anything short of an outright fight. Bad blood makes for good TV, after all.
With that expectation, there were a few things that caught my attention:
(1) I was surprised that Bryant's touchdown was upheld - that certainly didn't look like control to me until after he'd completely left the ground on his way OOB. But that didn't strike me as a mistake, just surprising. (Although why absolutely any catch/no catch call surprises me at this point is beyond me.)
(2) The Shazier hit on Bernard was a textbook example of spearing. I believe this was a clear miss - pretty sure the deep wing should be primary on this. (I probably have an ejection for a flagrant hit at any level I work - my instinctive reaction watching this live on TV was to reach for my flag.)
(3) The Burfict hit on Brown is definitely an ejection in any game I'm working. However, see conspiracy theory above...
(4) I was also surprised by the USC on Jones immediately afterwards. Replay didn't really show any actions that appeared to warrant it. (Of course, we don't know what he said.) Especially given the presence of the Pittsburgh coach (who shouldn't have been there, right?) and the game situation, I would expect guidance to be to keep that flag in the pocket unless the foul is... impressive. But the FJ who threw it is, I think, the same guy who missed the flag on the Shazier hit... possibly out of his depth. (I acknowledge there's quite a bit of hubris in my saying that.)
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I'm not even necessarily advocating ejections, though I don't think I would object to them. I would however, expect a flag. I assume that you could have a flag and penalty without ejection - at least on the Shazier hit, could you not?
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Yes you could.
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Does anyone else cringe when Jim Nantz asks for Mike Carey's analysis? He's been proved wrong by the onfield officiating crew or the replay numerous times that I can remember. I cannot believe CBS sticks with him.
Every. Single. Time.
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My take on this game:
1. Hit by Williams against Wheaton: Wheaton took 4 steps before contact, enough to no longer be considered defensless. Hit with shoulder pad just below the neck. IMHO - clean hit.
2. Hit by Shazier against Bernard - Used crown of his helmet to hit the face mask is alone a foul. He took fewer steps that Wheaton did, yet Carey pronounced hi not defenseless.
3. Hit by Burfict on Brown - Used his should pads, but contacted the helmet, should be a foul.
4. Not flagging Porter for being illegally on the field was poor judgement. Flagging Jones alone compounded that poor judgement. there was no missing Porter in that situation.
5. TD catch by Steelers #10 - In no way did the receiver have full control of that ball while inbounds.
Recommendations for NFL:
1. Any play involving player safety, foul or no call, should be made reviewable. These calls seem to be very inconsistly made and if safety is improtant, change this.
2. The NFL definitely needs to redefine a Catch!
Of note: Players, coaches, officials, AND FANS, need t revaluate their behaior around this game.
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An opposing view...
2015 POSTSEASON, COMMENTARY, FOLLOW-UP, NEWS
Parry playoff crew displays shock and awe in calling a strict game
by Mark Schultz • January 10, 2016 • 13 Comments
snip>>>>
(Porter was on-field with the medical staff during an injury timeout, which escalated with back-and-forth chirping, leading the Bengals defense to swarm around him. Porter was no saint in all of this, but his actions were not quite enough to draw a penalty.)
<<<<snip
I beg to differ. Porter is not a trainer, nor an offensive coach, hence there is no reason for Porter to be checking on Brown' injury status. Porter was not near Brown anyway, and instead was antagonizing Benglas players. Porter should not have been on the field, and should not ahve been talking to Bengals players. I believe the NFL rule states the referee can grant permission for Porter to be on the field, but I seriously doubt the white hat did so in this case, else he is out of line given what is known about these two teams' history. Porter's actions were a foul that should have been flagged before Adam Jones' response drew a flag from officials.
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In relation to the Shazier/Bernard hit...
Watch this week's officiating video http://media02.nfl.info/NFL/Media/2015/Video19/Officiating_Media_Video_01-15-16.mp4?_=1
According to Blandino, it isn't spearing because they were moving in different directions (excluding heading straight for each other). That's a new one on me.
So I looked up the rule and it says...
"ARTICLE 8. INITIATING CONTACT WITH THE CROWN OF THE HELMET
It is a foul if a runner or tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players are clearly outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle to tackle and from three yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team’s end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or tackler against an opponent shall not be a foul.
Note: The tackle box no longer exists once the ball leaves the tackle box.
Penalty: Loss of 15 yards. If the foul is by the defense, it is also an automatic first down. The player may be disqualified if the action is flagrant."
Not sure where to find the NFL ARs, however that would seem more than just an interpretation to add an "AND" with a whole extra condition.
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Yeah, hopefully they'll fix the catch rule, and let's hope they never adopt the single most controversial rule the NCAA has ever passed either.
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Yeah, hopefully they'll fix the catch rule, and let's hope they never adopt the single most controversial rule the NCAA has ever passed either.
Bah, I think the substitution rule show in the 50's and 60's were much more controversial than any rule change passed in the 2000's.
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In relation to the Shazier/Bernard hit...
Not sure where to find the NFL ARs, however that would seem more than just an interpretation to add an "AND" with a whole extra condition.
Spoke to an active NFL official who tells me "you wont find it in the rule. It is an 'interpretation' from Dean."
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Spoke to an active NFL official who tells me "you wont find it in the rule. It is an 'interpretation' from Dean."
...the same guy who has never officiated a game. hEaDbAnG
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Spoke to an active NFL official who tells me "you wont find it in the rule. It is an 'interpretation' from Dean."
Looks like they've seen sense and will amend the interpretation....
http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/21984/ryan-shazier-giovani-bernard-steelers-bengals-nfl-hit-now-illegal-playoffs