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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: SCHSref on August 26, 2016, 10:50:28 AM
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Can an assistant coach be ejected, tossed, etc. for mouthing at a ref?
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Why would you think they can't?
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Absolutely,
9-8-1: No coach, substitute, athletic trainer or other team attendant shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume authority for the contest. Examples are, but are not limited to:
9-8-1c: Disrespectfully addressing a game official.
PENALTY: Nonplayer foul (S27) - 15 yards.... Arts. 1,2,3 - Any single foul judged by the game official to be flagrant is disqualification.
So, yes, under the rules, the assistant can be disqualified.
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The reason why I ask is that someone challenged me on this and said that the HC would be charged with the USC and therefore you can't toss him, but the HC would be charged. I didn't buy that and when I relayed info about it, I was told that I was wrong and to "read the rules".
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The reason why I ask is that someone challenged me on this and said that the HC would be charged with the USC and therefore you can't toss him, but the HC would be charged. I didn't buy that and when I relayed info about it, I was told that I was wrong and to "read the rules".
And the penalty continues on to say "a disqualified member of the coaching staff shall be removed from the stadium area...."
If an AC couldn't be removed, why does it say coaching staff and not just head coach?
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By rule, the trainer, statistician, water boy, ball boy, and any other team personnel can be disqualified. The confusion with the rule probably has to do with certain fouls that are the responsibility of the head coach, for which he gets charged an USC
- Legal Equipment Worn by players
- Sideline Warning (after the 2nd offense)
- Be on the field following the conclusion of the halftime intermission
- Coin toss infraction
- Be ready to start either half
Also, there is a disqualification charged to the head coach for:
- Contact with a game official by a nonplayer (2nd offense)
though there is no charged USC as it is a personal foul.
Other than these, the offender is personally responsible for his actions. Any team personnel is subject to receiving an USC foul or being disqualified for reasons listed in 9-5 and 9-8.
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The reason why I ask is that someone challenged me on this and said that the HC would be charged with the USC and therefore you can't toss him, but the HC would be charged.
You need to hang around a smarter group of officials.
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This is not basketball, we aren't using bench technicals.
However, I understand your issue as I have heard many old time WH's espouse similar beliefs. It is frustrating to deal with some older officials who refuse to pay attention or attend meetings and haven't cracked a book in years.
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It is frustrating to deal with some older officials who refuse to pay attention or attend meetings and haven't cracked a book in years.
Almost as frustrating as dealing with younger officials who think they've already learned everything there is to EVER know.
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Almost as frustrating as dealing with younger officials who think they've already learned everything there is to EVER know.
Especially those who think targeting is being unfairly targeted. hEaDbAnG
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The reason why I ask is that someone challenged me on this and said that the HC would be charged with the USC and therefore you can't toss him, but the HC would be charged. I didn't buy that and when I relayed info about it, I was told that I was wrong and to "read the rules".
You seem to be a smart enough guy to have your own rule book & case book, read it, and dispel this nonsense yourself.
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In NC, we are enforcing a Zero Tolerance Policy for profanity, inappropriate language and anyone other than the head coach "discussing" calls with the official(s). The sideline is to have ONE voice, the head coach.
This policy includes that an unsportsmanlike conduct foul on anyone in the team box is also charged to the head coach. 2 USC fouls on the sideline and the head coach is ejected and suspended for the next game.
No, that is not the NFHS rule but it is the NCHSAA rule.
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In NC, we are enforcing a Zero Tolerance Policy for profanity, inappropriate language and anyone other than the head coach "discussing" calls with the official(s). The sideline is to have ONE voice, the head coach.
This policy includes that an unsportsmanlike conduct foul on anyone in the team box is also charged to the head coach. 2 USC fouls on the sideline and the head coach is ejected and suspended for the next game.
No, that is not the NFHS rule but it is the NCHSAA rule.
I like it!!!
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This policy includes that an unsportsmanlike conduct foul on anyone in the team box is also charged to the head coach. 2 USC fouls on the sideline and the head coach is ejected and suspended for the next game.
No, that is not the NFHS rule but it is the NCHSAA rule.
I like the point of emphasis and certainly not disagreeing, but I think the "charged to the head coach" part is causing a bit of confusion. Like sideline interference, the HC is ultimately responsible for the sideline and this falls under "verbal sideline interference" (kind of). However, as HLinNC pointed out, there is no "bench technical" in the manual that just gets charged to the HC, so there's no explicit rule support for the USC also being charged to the HC -- it's just state interpretation.
Oh, and I'm sure we'll get a bunch of follow up emails once conference play starts and a HC gets tossed because the line judge runs into an assistant in the restricted zone, then said assistant says a few choice words to the official. That's two penalties "charged" the HC, but separately and they don't combine to cause a disqualification.
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I like the point of emphasis and certainly not disagreeing, but I think the "charged to the head coach" part is causing a bit of confusion. Like sideline interference, the HC is ultimately responsible for the sideline and this falls under "verbal sideline interference" (kind of). However, as HLinNC pointed out, there is no "bench technical" in the manual that just gets charged to the HC, so there's no explicit rule support for the USC also being charged to the HC -- it's just state interpretation.
Oh, and I'm sure we'll get a bunch of follow up emails once conference play starts and a HC gets tossed because the line judge runs into an assistant in the restricted zone, then said assistant says a few choice words to the official. That's two penalties "charged" the HC, but separately and they don't combine to cause a disqualification.
You're confusing two different situations.
Running into an asst coach or anyone else in the restricted area is not a USC. It's a personal foul. If that happens twice in a game, the head coach would be disqualified. But a PF of this type and a USC, whether charged on an asst coach or directly to the head coach, cannot combine to toss the head coach.
As for the USC on sideline personnel being charged to the head coach, it is NOT an NC interpretation. It is an NCHSAA rule. MD knows that under NFHS rules, such a foul is not charged to the HC. But the NCHSAA Board of Directors have approved this rule. As MD explained it to us, the NFHS has no problem with a state making a rule stricter than the NFHS rule is written.
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I suggest you run that one by Mark.
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I suggest you run that one by Mark.
That's the information he gave us when we questioned it the day after our state clinic. We pointed out that the NFHS does not support such a penalty. He told us that this is an NCHSAA rule and that the NFHS has no problem with a state rule being more stiff than the NFHS rule. As such, any bench personnel who contest calls, come onto the field to argue or uses profane or inappropriate language will receive a USC, which is also charged to the head coach. The second time it happens or the head coach gets a USC directly charged to him, he is ejected.
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Question for the guys in NC. Is your zero tolerance policy changing behavior in terms of language and asst coaches questioning calls?
I wish FL would adopt that policy.
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That's the information he gave us when we questioned it the day after our state clinic. We pointed out that the NFHS does not support such a penalty. He told us that this is an NCHSAA rule and that the NFHS has no problem with a state rule being more stiff than the NFHS rule. As such, any bench personnel who contest calls, come onto the field to argue or uses profane or inappropriate language will receive a USC, which is also charged to the head coach. The second time it happens or the head coach gets a USC directly charged to him, he is ejected.
This isn't "stiffer" than a FED rule, it's moving responsibility and placing it somewhere not designed by rule. And even if it was "stiffer", you still can't unilaterally change it. No state could say, "Instead of 10 yards for a first down, we're going to make it stiffer and make it 15." I'm going to bet dollars to donuts that the NCHSAA made this rule without getting it approved by the NFHS.
I have recently been involved with some baseball rule changes, and there is no way the NFHS approves a change like this. That being said, the NCHSAA may say, "Don't care, we're doing it anyway. If you want to take away our rules seat, take your best shot."
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In our region, about 9 western counties, there has never been a serious problem in the 15 years I have worked this area. Individual eruptions by coaches occur occasionally and are dealt with as needed under the existing rules.
As to assistants, any that I felt were beginning to chirp too much, I've mentioned to the boss and never had a problem with it getting fixed promptly. Most of us have a decent rapport with the school's we work.
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IMHO, a state has the authority to stiffen a rule but not to weaken it. Example : The NFHS doesn't specify any subsequent suspension for a player/ coach ejection; however, most states suspend the culprit from upcoming game(s). Mark is a sharp guy, and I'm sure he is fully understanding of NFHS regulations when issuing this edict for NC.
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In our region, about 9 western counties, there has never been a serious problem in the 15 years I have worked this area. Individual eruptions by coaches occur occasionally and are dealt with as needed under the existing rules.
As to assistants, any that I felt were beginning to chirp too much, I've mentioned to the boss and never had a problem with it getting fixed promptly. Most of us have a decent rapport with the school's we work.
In my experience, you seldom even have to tell the HC which assistant is causing a problem. All you have to do is mention that you would appreciate all communication coming through the HC. They usually know who you are talking about, often it is the same guy that causes the HC problems all week in practice.
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My question is if a the assistant gets a second are both he and the head coach tossed? Also if a different assistant get an USC is the head coach gone? Just wondering.
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My question is if a the assistant gets a second are both he and the head coach tossed? Also if a different assistant get an USC is the head coach gone? Just wondering.
No, the USC on a different team member is not assigned to the head coach at all and does not count towards his disqualification. If a team has 10 assistants, you could technically give each of them separate USC penalties. They could also be seperately disqualified. The head coach could still get one and not be disqualified.
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So what does putting the first one on the head coach do? He still needs to get two of his own to be ejected. I don't see any help that this would be to keeping the language and arguing by assistants down. I can tell my #1 assistant to quit questioning calls and tell #2 its his turn and so on.
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So what does putting the first one on the head coach do? He still needs to get two of his own to be ejected. I don't see any help that this would be to keeping the language and arguing by assistants down. I can tell my #1 assistant to quit questioning calls and tell #2 its his turn and so on.
Under the new North Carolina policy discussed above, yes, if two different assistants get USC fouls, the head coach is tossed. If the same assistant gets two flags, the assistant and head coach are both tossed.
If you're not under that special policy (read: anywhere else), then disregard the "charged to the head coach" bit.
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So what does putting the first one on the head coach do? He still needs to get two of his own to be ejected. I don't see any help that this would be to keeping the language and arguing by assistants down. I can tell my #1 assistant to quit questioning calls and tell #2 its his turn and so on.
If the crew knew that you would likely be on the bus early. If a head coach can't control his assistants, he might be in the wrong line of work.
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In NC, we are enforcing a Zero Tolerance Policy for profanity, inappropriate language and anyone other than the head coach "discussing" calls with the official(s). The sideline is to have ONE voice, the head coach.
Ugh. Zero Tolerance policies, for pretty much anything, are generally a bad idea. I understand the impetus - to underscore proper sideline behavior and to provide explicit support for officials who will enforce the rules. But if officials are being paid to apply their judgment to plays on the field, they should also be allowed to use their judgment about issues on the sideline. Otherwise, if I hear a coach yelling at his player to "GTF back out there and make a *#$@ing tackle!" - which happens at least every other game - I have to flag him. "Sorry, coach, the state has implemented a Zero Tolerance policy." And now he's chirping at me for the rest of the game...
This policy includes that an unsportsmanlike conduct foul on anyone in the team box is also charged to the head coach. 2 USC fouls on the sideline and the head coach is ejected and suspended for the next game.
No, that is not the NFHS rule but it is the NCHSAA rule.
That, I like. The head coach is supposed to be in control of his sideline. If the behavior of someone on the sideline rises to the level of USC, it's his responsibility to squash it. If he doesn't, then there's a consequence.
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Absolutely agree, "ZERO Tolerance" is only effective on paper to make Administrators feel good.
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What everyone is failing to realize is that the coaches were made aware of this policy and it's ultimately up to the HC to ensure they control their sidelines. So far I haven't encountered any problems and I believe that the coaches have done a great job ensuring that their sidelines adhere to the rule.
NC implemented this rule because they felt the game has gotten out of control. Coaches screaming at officials, fights breaking out and the benches clearing, etc. They feel that the meaning of sportsmanship has gone out of the game and I truly believe they are right. So that's the reason I believe they have the ZERO tolerance policy and so far I believe it's working. Let's see what happens when conference play begins.
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The head coach is supposed to be in control of his sideline. If the behavior of someone on the sideline rises to the level of USC, it's his responsibility to squash it. If he doesn't, then there's a consequence.
Yes, but unlike basketball where the bench area is relatively small, HS football has a 50-yard team box. I've seen many instances where an assistant is chewing out an official 30+ yards away from where the HC is.
That said, if such a policy were in force in our state, I'd want my wings to let the HC know that one of his assistants is acting up before throwing a flag.
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Question for the guys in NC. Is your zero tolerance policy changing behavior in terms of language and asst coaches questioning calls?
I wish FL would adopt that policy.
Yes sir, I believe that it is. The NCHSAA is now turned it into a comprehensive sportsmanship campaign for the NCHSAA, not simply a movement for our officiating program. Banners are being provided for all of our 409 member schools, ejection-free decals to be affixed to the banners, videos and PSA announcements, and more. This has received major, positive media coverage and we are being asked to present this nationally to NFHS member states.
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This isn't "stiffer" than a FED rule, it's moving responsibility and placing it somewhere not designed by rule. And even if it was "stiffer", you still can't unilaterally change it. No state could say, "Instead of 10 yards for a first down, we're going to make it stiffer and make it 15." I'm going to bet dollars to donuts that the NCHSAA made this rule without getting it approved by the NFHS.
I have recently been involved with some baseball rule changes, and there is no way the NFHS approves a change like this. That being said, the NCHSAA may say, "Don't care, we're doing it anyway. If you want to take away our rules seat, take your best shot."
You may bet whatever you like but I can assure you that the NCHSAA has NFHS approval and will be presenting the program to other NFHS members at a future meeting. The Chief Operating Officer of the NFHS is former NCHSAA Commissioner Davis Whitfield. He is fully onboard with our initiative.
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IMHO, a state has the authority to stiffen a rule but not to weaken it. Example : The NFHS doesn't specify any subsequent suspension for a player/ coach ejection; however, most states suspend the culprit from upcoming game(s). Mark is a sharp guy, and I'm sure he is fully understanding of NFHS regulations when issuing this edict for NC.
Thanks you, Ralph. You'll be hearing more about this very soon.
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Ugh. Zero Tolerance policies, for pretty much anything, are generally a bad idea.
Time will tell but three weeks in, it's working quite well.
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Time will tell but three weeks in, it's working quite well.
"Zero Tolerance" doesn't provide ANY additional deterrent power to enforcing rules by those who have the appropriate knowledge and understanding of the objective of the rule, and the courage to enforce it, consistently, when specific circumstances rise to the level of earning enforcement (whatever that level of enforcement might require).
Removing enforcement judgment from the decision process, only serves to reduce the discretion of enforcement personnel which can limit their ability to objectively determine the necessity for enforcement.
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NC implemented this rule because they felt the game has gotten out of control.
That means the officials weren't doing their job before!
I called baseball from Little League to NCAA D1 for 40+ years. With RARE exception, if it gets to the point of ejection and fights, then as the umpire, I didn't do my job.
Sure, it's possible for something to come from out of the blue, but 99% of the time, you can see it coming, and if you are doing your job, you can and should head it off.
Yes, the first responsibility lies with the players, and the next with the coaches. Having been both, I fully accept and believe that. But players and coaches are emotional because of their investment. But if they haven't done what they should, then the official (who should not be emotional) has tools at his disposal to fix those things, and that should be far short of state wide zero tolerance policies and making new rules about ejections.
Things such as zero tolerance and charging the HC with all sideline issues is officiating to the lowest common denominator, rather than assuming the official has the knowledge and judgment to control the game.
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That means the officials weren't doing their job before!
Not really. The things are going on in our state are happening in every state. Our state association has just chosen to say "Enough."
Once this program, “Sportsmanship…Together We Make The Right Call.” is introduced at a future NFHS meeting, no doubt other states will have similar programs.
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Not really. The things are going on in our state are happening in every state. Our state association has just chosen to say "Enough."
Once this program, “Sportsmanship…Together We Make The Right Call.” is introduced at a future NFHS meeting, no doubt other states will have similar programs.
+1
It's one of the reasons why we have a shortage of officials. I hope FL and the rest of the FED are right behind you.
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Can an assistant coach be ejected, tossed, etc. for mouthing at a ref?
my first thought when I saw the post title was "Assistants can have questions?"
:sTiR: ^no :!#
We had issues with the clock operator last friday night, and Visiting team was getting the bad end of the deal. Everybody on the sideline was jumping up and down, screaming, and giving my side guys the business... I called time, went to the HC and told him, "Coach, we are going to give you great leeway to discuss what you need to discuss, and ask what you need to ask, but we don't want to hear another word from anyone else." He had a huddle of his own, and problem was solved..
*We never did the clock guy straightened out.... wish he had been an official.
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You can do next week's crew a big favor and have him replaced by game management and/or start keeping time on the field. That usually takes care of the problem.
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You can do next week's crew a big favor and have him replaced by game management and/or start keeping time on the field. That usually takes care of the problem.
+1
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Fortunately, and thankfully, any field clock operated at any level (Varsity, Sub Varsity & Youth Football) is operated by an assigned, certified official (in uniform). Otherwise game time is operated by the field crew, on the field according to NFHS mechanics.
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Fortunately, and thankfully, any field clock operated at any level (Varsity, Sub Varsity & Youth Football) is operated by an assigned, certified official (in uniform). Otherwise game time is operated by the field crew, on the field according to NFHS mechanics.
Maybe in NY, but I can assure you it's not the practice everywhere.
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Fortunately, and thankfully, any field clock operated at any level (Varsity, Sub Varsity & Youth Football) is operated by an assigned, certified official (in uniform). Otherwise game time is operated by the field crew, on the field according to NFHS mechanics.
You know how many headaches this would save me on Saturdays if this were universally true? What a wonderful world that would be...
Around my area, schools have the option of hiring a clock operator, but it is not required -- and teams are still required to provide their own play clock operator. The uniformed official only operates the game clock.
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In Georgia, Varsity games require an ECO that is an official, in uniform. They get one-half of the game fee received by the on-field officials. In theory, they are alternate officials that can go in if one of the crew gets injured. I say in theory, because often, the ECOs are young, inexperienced officials not yet ready to be on the field, or injured officials that can't run, or aged officials that still want to work, but can no longer move well enough on the field. But they can handle the ECO job, and it (usually) beats a school employee or some parent from the stands.
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In Georgia, Varsity games require an ECO that is an official, in uniform. They get one-half of the game fee received by the on-field officials. In theory, they are alternate officials that can go in if one of the crew gets injured. I say in theory, because often, the ECOs are young, inexperienced officials not yet ready to be on the field, or injured officials that can't run, or aged officials that still want to work, but can no longer move well enough on the field. But they can handle the ECO job, and it (usually) beats a school employee or some parent from the stands.
Similar situation in FL, although I think they get a bit more than 1/2 of a game fee. My sister-in-law has been our clock operator for more than a decade. It's a great situation because she has no desire to go on the field, so we have one of the most experienced ECOs in our association. And we never have to worry about the clock stopping with 0.7 seconds in the half.
The only downside is that she can't replace somebody that might get injured.
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Our ECOs are not assigned to every varsity contest. However, they must be registered officials, take the officiating exam, attend the pre-game, dress in khakis and a collared shirt, and even evaluate the crew. The pay is close to half of the regular game fee.
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In Georgia, Varsity games require an ECO that is an official, in uniform. They get one-half of the game fee received by the on-field officials. In theory, they are alternate officials that can go in if one of the crew gets injured. I say in theory, because often, the ECOs are young, inexperienced officials not yet ready to be on the field, or injured officials that can't run, or aged officials that still want to work, but can no longer move well enough on the field. But they can handle the ECO job, and it (usually) beats a school employee or some parent from the stands.
Same here. In addition, most schools ask us to provide a 25/second ECO,
who must also be a registered official in uniform. Makes for lots of zebras when we work 7-man.
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For play clocks here, the answer is, "it depends". For instance, our play clock controller is an armband with a single button. It's even easier than using a Ready Ref. Our FJs will operate it from the field, and have no problem doing so. The biggest problem is remembering to give the control back to me after the game (yes, I have had to chase it down. Once took me 4 days to get it back). But other schools have units that are console based, or are much more cumbersome. In those cases, it must be an additional official.
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We have one school with a visible play clock. We consider it unofficial, since it's not run by one of our officials.
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For play clocks here, the answer is, "it depends". For instance, our play clock controller is an armband with a single button. It's even easier than using a Ready Ref. Our FJs will operate it from the field, and have no problem doing so. The biggest problem is remembering to give the control back to me after the game (yes, I have had to chase it down. Once took me 4 days to get it back). But other schools have units that are console based, or are much more cumbersome. In those cases, it must be an additional official.
I was the referee on a Freshman game a couple of weeks ago, 4 man, and the school had one of the armbands with a single button. It sure was nice and easy to do. if we are going to have play clocks that is definitely the way to go in my opinion
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In my experience, you seldom even have to tell the HC which assistant is causing a problem. All you have to do is mention that you would appreciate all communication coming through the HC. They usually know who you are talking about, often it is the same guy that causes the HC problems all week in practice.
Does being up in the booth exempt a HC or AC from 9-8-1? The above made me think of about a scenario where the HC sends the AC up to the booth after the AC is given a USC. Then from the booth the AC continues with his tomfoolery.
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What kind of "tomfoolery" could an assistant in the booth pull that I as an on field official would be aware of or care about?
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What kind of "tomfoolery" could an assistant in the booth pull that I as an on field official would be aware of or care about?
Tapping into the officials' comm system? Haha
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Tapping into the officials' comm system? Haha
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Ever thrown out a clock operator?
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Ever thrown out a clock operator?
No, but I have had one replaced because he had this aversion to the on/off switch.
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Ever thrown out a clock operator?
Apparently, our association had one last night who tried to call DOG from the press box.
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Apparently, our association had one last night who tried to call DOG from the press box.
..... How??
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We have one school with a visible play clock. We consider it unofficial, since it's not run by one of our officials.
Thanks to some very wise officials, all our HS games with field clocks have been run by active, certified members of our Association since (before 1970). The idea of allowing "unofficial" dual clocks has come up several times and has been rejected.
We bowed to pressure from youth leagues in the late 1990s, from the growing number of teams using HS facilities, on a trial basis and the trial turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. Despite all efforts to train, and synchronize time during dead ball periods, the confusion and problems far outweighed ANY benefit.
Although periodic requests continue, Field clocks at ALL levels are ONLY acceptable when operated by active, certified Officials (in full uniform), or game time is kept on the field. (and our world is a happier place)
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..... How??
Our ECOs are all registered officials. This particular one thought the 25/sec clock expired prior to the snap, and stopped the game clock, leaned out the press box window, & made the DOG signal.
With 1:28 left in the 4th quarter of a 3-score game & the leading team in possession.
With the trailing team having 2 TOs left & not using them.
Guess I haven't seen it all.
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Bama, PLEASE tell me he didn't have a whistle or flag up there... hEaDbAnG
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Also, this reminds me of the (possibly apocryphal) story of the rookie official who was on the sidelines as an observer who threw a flag for a holding foul he thought the HL didn't see...
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I was once threatened by an ECO with a USC foul while I was a coach in the press box. The ECO was asleep, letting the clock run a number of times in critical situations when it should have been stopped. The first couple of times, I just yelled, "Stop the clock". But after I had enough, and he still wasn't reacting, I slapped the glass wall that was between us. Apparently, that woke him up, and he says, "If you slap that wall again, I'm going to call a USC on you!" You KNOW what I did the next time he didn't stop the clock.
And there was no foul.