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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: NJOfficial on August 27, 2016, 06:23:00 PM
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A 4th and 4 a B 20. A88 goes out of bounds on his own at the B10 and comes back in and catches a TD pass. It's illegal participation on A88, what is the enforcement?
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15 yard penalty enforced from spot where he returned to participate.
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Flag on the ground where he returns to participate, but this is a foul by the offense in advance of the basic spot. On a loose ball play the basic spot is the previous spot. Spot of penalty enforcement is the previous spot, not spot of foul.
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15 yard penalty enforced from spot where he returned to participate.
Loose-ball play. Basic spot is previous spot, which is why we don't throw hats (the worst looking mechanic ever invented).
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This play happened in IMG vs Grayson. They enforced from where player came back in. I guess Georgia uses throwing the hat as a mechanic for this because the official threw his hat on the play.
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This play happened in IMG vs Grayson. They enforced from where player came back in. I guess Georgia uses throwing the hat as a mechanic for this because the official threw his hat on the play.
No, Georgia does not use that mechanic, despite the fact that this official did.
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Here is that play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ6mHOIpKYo
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Does anyone know whether there were any repercussions for the officiating crew because of the spot of enforcement that they chose?
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No, Georgia does not use that mechanic, despite the fact that this official did.
Capitol District in NY uses a similar mechanic to verify the chain of pertinent events that cause the foul, which can be very helpful if there is any question, or dispute.
Beanbag (as opposed to a cap) where the A receiver stepped out of bounds, and a flag where, and if, he chooses to return in-bounds during the play. The presence of a beanbag at the spot where the receiver went OOB serves as extremely useful confirmation of why the flag was thrown when the received returned.
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Capitol District in NY uses a similar mechanic to verify the chain of pertinent events that cause the foul, which can be very helpful if there is any question, or dispute.
Beanbag (as opposed to a cap) where the A receiver stepped out of bounds, and a flag where, and if, he chooses to return in-bounds during the play. The presence of a beanbag at the spot where the receiver went OOB serves as extremely useful confirmation of why the flag was thrown when the received returned.
The only confirmation I need is my wing or deep wing's word for it that the player voluntarily went out and returned and his flag on the ground.
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As a practical matter, the flag stays in the pocket after A returns unless he blocks someone or touches the ball. Flagging the return at the time of return is looking for boogers.
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The only confirmation I need is my wing or deep wing's word for it that the player voluntarily went out and returned and his flag on the ground.
Absolutely correct, but I'm not referencing an official's confirmation, that goes without saying. HOWEVER, the presence of a bean bag, on a sideline serves to take a lot wind out of non-official's need for extended discussions.
As for how quick a flag is thrown when the player crosses back in-bounds, as always, that's based on the covering official's observation of the action unfolding in front of him.
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There is no requirement or mechanic to drop a Hat or a Bean Bag in NFHS.
Rather, The rule says there is a 15 yard IP Foul if he returns.
Commons sense says only throw a flag if his actions affected the play.
Therefore,
Dropping a Bean and then choosing to not throw a flag seems to be adding gale force winds to "non-officials need for extended discussion."
We seem to agree that we may or may not throw a flag. And, Since we agree, then there is no need to throw a Hat or a Bean Bag as you are merely drawing unneeded attention to yourself especially when you choose not to throw the flag.
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After watching the video, did the receiver go out on his own? I don't think so. It looks like there was contact that caused the problem.
No marking by a beanbag or cap is needed. This is not a reference point for anything in FED. In too many cases, the cap drop exposes too much skin. I buy my own cap so I like to keep it as clean as possible.
Finally, 15 yard from the previous spot (for this loose ball play) does not fit the crime if the player did accidentally go out on his own. FED, get real!
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There is no requirement or mechanic to drop a Hat or a Bean Bag in NFHS.
Rather, The rule says there is a 15 yard IP Foul if he returns.
Commons sense says only throw a flag if his actions affected the play.
Therefore,
Dropping a Bean and then choosing to not throw a flag seems to be adding gale force winds to "non-officials need for extended discussion."
We seem to agree that we may or may not throw a flag. And, Since we agree, then there is no need to throw a Hat or a Bean Bag as you are merely drawing unneeded attention to yourself especially when you choose not to throw the flag.
Merely a suggestion (not a required mechanic) that has proven, over time, to avoid questions, or serve as relevant evidence of a critical observation, that may have been missed ny the questioner and confirm a pertinent requirement of a rule violation. Therefore, if you don't think it has value, don't use it.
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No marking by a beanbag or cap is needed. This is not a reference point for anything in FED. In too many cases, the cap drop exposes too much skin. I buy my own cap so I like to keep it as clean as possible.
As always, though, if your boss says to do something, you do it. Our VP of Rules and Mechanics says that we drop our hat, and has added it to our mechanics manual. He's aware that it doesn't mean anything by the rules, but says do it anyway. So....
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When in Rome........but even a Roman might be willing to consider that a bean bag, can be equally effective in identifying the issue, does so more inconspicuously, and is subject to a lot less damage and expense than a sparkling official's cap. How persuasive your suggestion may be, depends a lot on your presentation skills.
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why can't we simply do nothing until it's determined that the return influenced the play, then drop the flag, especially since we don't have to mark the return spot. It seems like all this hat-dropping and bean-bag throwing is useless. If you do nothing, then you won't have to explain why you threw your hat or dropped your bean bag if the infraction doesn't affect the play.
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why can't we simply do nothing until it's determined that the return influenced the play, then drop the flag, especially since we don't have to mark the return spot. It seems like all this hat-dropping and bean-bag throwing is useless. If you do nothing, then you won't have to explain why you threw your hat or dropped your bean bag if the infraction doesn't affect the play.
If a player intentionally leaves the field, simply returning is a foul, and there should be a flag at the spot where he came back. He doesn't have to participate or do anything to influence the play, he has already fouled by coming back on the field. There's nothing to wait to see.
But this is more reason the hat is unnecessary: where he went out is meaningless. HOW he went out matters (on his own, or forced out). If he was forced out, that spot is meaningless as long as he comes back as soon as possible. If he went out on his own, coming back should be marked with a flag.
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If a player intentionally leaves the field, simply returning is a foul, and there should be a flag at the spot where he came back. He doesn't have to participate or do anything to influence the play, he has already fouled by coming back on the field. There's nothing to wait to see.
But this is more reason the hat is unnecessary: where he went out is meaningless. HOW he went out matters (on his own, or forced out). If he was forced out, that spot is meaningless as long as he comes back as soon as possible. If he went out on his own, coming back should be marked with a flag.
+1
9-6-2(a)
ART. 2 . . . No player shall intentionally go out of bounds during the down and:
a. Return to the field;
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If a player intentionally leaves the field, simply returning is a foul, and there should be a flag at the spot where he came back. He doesn't have to participate or do anything to influence the play, he has already fouled by coming back on the field. There's nothing to wait to see.
But this is more reason the hat is unnecessary: where he went out is meaningless. HOW he went out matters (on his own, or forced out). If he was forced out, that spot is meaningless as long as he comes back as soon as possible. If he went out on his own, coming back should be marked with a flag.
Maybe it's too early and this cough I have is driving me sideways but...
Are there two fouls on a play where a receiver goes OOB, returns (illegal participation), then catches a pass (illegal touching?)
Would the defense get the option of the 15 yard penalty (replay down) or the 5 yard penalty (loss of down)?
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Maybe it's too early and this cough I have is driving me sideways but...
Are there two fouls on a play where a receiver goes OOB, returns (illegal participation), then catches a pass (illegal touching?)
No, AL.
Fundamental VII (1): A player that is eligible at the start of the down remains eligible throughout the down.
The receiver in the OP is still and remains eligible.
The only foul is for IP.
Case 9.6.1 Situation A
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But this is more reason the hat is unnecessary: where he went out is meaningless. HOW he went out matters (on his own, or forced out). If he was forced out, that spot is meaningless as long as he comes back as soon as possible. If he went out on his own, coming back should be marked with a flag.
Agreed, confirming recognition of WHY a receiver stepped OOB most certainly SHOULD be unnecessary. Unfortunately, there continues to be circumstances where "picking at that scab in search of an advantage" remains a temptation for some. The presence of a bean bag (or if you prefer a cap) on a sideline can usually reduce the frequency of such meaningless discussions from happening.
Sometimes, "An ounce of prevention can avoid a pound of cure", especially when the only drawback is retrieving a bean bag (after the fact).
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Agreed, confirming recognition of WHY a receiver stepped OOB most certainly SHOULD be unnecessary. Unfortunately, there continues to be circumstances where "picking at that scab in search of an advantage" remains a temptation for some. The presence of a bean bag (or if you prefer a cap) on a sideline can usually reduce the frequency of such meaningless discussions from happening.
Sometimes, "An ounce of prevention can avoid a pound of cure", especially when the only drawback is retrieving a bean bag (after the fact).
The only thing the bean bag or hat signifies is THAT he went OOB. So what? Doesn't matter, going OOB by itself is not a foul, it's nothing. In fact, if I'm a coach on that sideline and you throw a bean bag or a hat, and then DON'T throw a flag, we're going to have an even bigger discussion.
Just like a bean bag on a fumble in the backfield: sure, throw it if you want to, but it means nothing. Might as well be throwing it at the team mascot. Officiating is hard. Why waste time and effort on meaningless actions? You have enough to worry about with the things that matter.
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If a player intentionally leaves the field, simply returning is a foul, and there should be a flag at the spot where he came back. He doesn't have to participate or do anything to influence the play, he has already fouled by coming back on the field. There's nothing to wait to see.
But this is more reason the hat is unnecessary: where he went out is meaningless. HOW he went out matters (on his own, or forced out). If he was forced out, that spot is meaningless as long as he comes back as soon as possible. If he went out on his own, coming back should be marked with a flag.
Just to clarify further, he doesn't even have to intentionally leave the field. Simply accidentally leaving the field on his own accord renders an A or K player in violation if he returns to the field, whether he participates or not.
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just like a bean bag on a fumble in the backfield: sure, throw it if you want to, but it means nothing. Might as well be throwing it at the team mascot. Officiating is hard. Why waste time and effort on meaningless actions? You have enough to worry about with the things that matter.
Oh boy, the beanbag in the backfield argument. Just be aware that Pg 16 of the GHSA Manual says I have to beanbag a fumble "every time they are observed".
Just the same I usually "forget" to bean bag fumbles in the backfield because, like you, I know it's meaningless.
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I have fought that battle on several occasions, with crew members and with the duly elected representatives of the Associations with whom I work. The only argument that I get in return is for the sake of consistency.
I suppose I get the point, but it still makes no sense, though I continue to do it so as not to get dinged on evaluation.
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Just to clarify further, he doesn't even have to intentionally leave the field. Simply accidentally leaving the field on his own accord renders an A or K player in violation if he returns to the field, whether he participates or not.
In Fed-speak, "intentionally going out of bounds" equals "not being forced out of bounds." Whether he meant to go out or not is unimportant, only whether he was forced out or not.
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Just to clarify further, he doesn't even have to intentionally leave the field. Simply accidentally leaving the field on his own accord renders an A or K player in violation if he returns to the field, whether he participates or not.
If you weren't forced out, it WAS intentional. The offense knows where the line is, and if they want to chance being close to it, that's intentional.
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The only thing the bean bag or hat signifies is THAT he went OOB. So what? Doesn't matter, going OOB by itself is not a foul, it's nothing. In fact, if I'm a coach on that sideline and you throw a bean bag or a hat, and then DON'T throw a flag, we're going to have an even bigger discussion.
I don't think so, a brief explanation should suffice. Whether you agree or not is simply not my call (or concern).