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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: OHref71 on September 13, 2016, 12:40:38 PM
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Had a coach Friday night tell me if the situation presented itself he was going to run a play when they hand off to a lineman. He knew every stipulation that had to be met for this to be legal. Unfortunately the situation never presented itself but it would have been fun to watch.
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If it is done legally, this could be bucket list material.
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Just remember, guys, that the ball can be handed BACK to a lineman anytime/anywhere. It's only on a FORWARD handoff that that requires a lineman to face his own goal first. This rule was put in back in 1943 and was to prevent a play known as a "center rush". The center would begin his snap until the ball touched the QB's hands, draw it back and hopefully waddle for a score. Unable to locate records of many centers scoring touchdowns in that bygone era.
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The lineman must turn 180 degrees to not have illegal forward handing here.
Saw two attempts at this with previous warnings in mycareer. First the lineman turned 90 degrees. ^flag Second the lineman turned 135 degrees. ^flag
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I don't know anything about turning a certain number of degrees, but I would think any lineman could take a handoff or a pitch behind the QB or whoever has the ball. As long as it is a backward handoff or backward pass it should be legal. Whether it's a guard, tackle or end shouldn't matter.
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I don't know anything about turning a certain number of degrees, but I would think any lineman could take a handoff or a pitch behind the QB or whoever has the ball. As long as it is a backward handoff or backward pass it should be legal. Whether it's a guard, tackle or end shouldn't matter.
Sure, and I've seen plenty of those. It's that forward handoff with the lineman facing his own goal that would be the Sasquatch play.
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The lineman must turn 180 degrees to not have illegal forward handing here.
Saw two attempts at this with previous warnings in mycareer. First the lineman turned 90 degrees. ^flag Second the lineman turned 135 degrees. ^flag
Basically to run this play right, the lineman would just have to spin the opposite way he is going. EG: left tackle would just have to rotate counter-clockwise before pulling to his right to receive the hand off.
Personally, I'd like to see this rule go away forever much like the legal motion by an end if he's 5 yards in the backfield. Then comes the question, is he still a lineman or back?
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Why would the lineman have to turn all the way around? If you're running a reverse the end doesn't have to do that in order to take a handoff or pitch deep in the backfield? ???
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Why would the lineman have to turn all the way around? If you're running a reverse the end doesn't have to do that in order to take a handoff or pitch deep in the backfield? ???
Because by 7-3-2-b, if he's a back, OR on the end of his line and not the snapper or adjacent to the snapper, he can legally take a forward handoff. By 7-3-2-a, if he's a lineman, he must "clearly face his end line by moving both feet in a half turn" and "[be] at least 1 yard behind his line when he receives the ball."
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Was the coach going to run this? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_XjAxQSuA
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Just remember, guys, that the ball can be handed BACK to a lineman anytime/anywhere. It's only on a FORWARD handoff that that requires a lineman to face his own goal first. This rule was put in back in 1943 and was to prevent a play known as a "center rush". The center would begin his snap until the ball touched the QB's hands, draw it back and hopefully waddle for a score. Unable to locate records of many centers scoring touchdowns in that bygone era.
It's fascinating to learn a little history of this play because this was a VERY popular play in our neighborhood backyard football games in the early 1970s. We called it a "Center Sneak" and used it mostly in short yardage situations.
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Was the coach going to run this? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_XjAxQSuA
Hard to tell on that video, but my first booger pickin' thought was that there's two illegal forward passes on that play.
It looks like the QB flips the ball forward to the center rather than handing it off, and of course, he's not an eligible receiver. When the center throws the ball, that marks the second forward pass -- also illegal.
Less booger picking says the QB to center flip was lateral and not forward, and we're all good. Hard to tell from that video, but it sure wasn't obviously backwards or an obvious handoff.
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Hard to tell on that video, but my first booger pickin' thought was that there's two illegal forward passes on that play.
It looks like the QB flips the ball forward to the center rather than handing it off, and of course, he's not an eligible receiver. When the center throws the ball, that marks the second forward pass -- also illegal.
Less booger picking says the QB to center flip was lateral and not forward, and we're all good. Hard to tell from that video, but it sure wasn't obviously backwards or an obvious handoff.
Now my turn to booger pick remember there is no lateral it is either a forward or backward pass. If it is not forward it is backward no lateral.
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It looks like the QB flips the ball forward to the center rather than handing it off, and of course, he's not an eligible receiver. When the center throws the ball, that marks the second forward pass -- also illegal.
Less booger picking says the QB to center flip was lateral and not forward, and we're all good. Hard to tell from that video, but it sure wasn't obviously backwards or an obvious handoff.
It's close, and the angle we have is FAR from definitive. Looks like the center MIGHT have gotten back to the yard line equal to the QB. I'm also betting in the heat of the moment, that wouldn't be noticed.
We HAD a play where the end comes around in front of the QB, the QB flips him the ball, and he then flips it back to the opposite end on a reverse. The second end then throws a forward pass.
As we were in practice for week 2, I was watching the offense, and one of our injured players was standing with me. He said, "Coach, isn't that two forward passes?" He was exactly right, and I went to the OC and let him know. We changed the play so the first "flip" is now a clear handoff.
But here's the kicker: we ran the play twice in week 1, and no foul was ever called. I also think our injured player (who will have a limited career in football) should seriously consider taking up officiating when he leaves high school!
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Was the coach going to run this? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_XjAxQSuA
I have at least two passes on this play. The first one to A44 is certainly forward, and should be called an incompletion if dropped. The second one from A44 to A52 is partially obscured, but could possibly be a handoff. Nonetheless, that last pass is illegal.
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I have at least two passes on this play. The first one to A44 is certainly forward, and should be called an incompletion if dropped. The second one from A44 to A52 is partially obscured, but could possibly be a handoff. Nonetheless, that last pass is illegal.
I never saw #44 get the ball, I though the QB flipped the ball to #52, and thought that was close. You are correct, the flip to #44 was forward, making the second (or possibly third) pass illegal.
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I have at least two passes on this play. The first one to A44 is certainly forward, and should be called an incompletion if dropped. The second one from A44 to A52 is partially obscured, but could possibly be a handoff. Nonetheless, that last pass is illegal.
#44 never gets he ball. QB looks to be handing the ball forward to #52 (hard to see in video since his back is to the camera), #52 then throws a pass to #80 in the EZ.
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#44 never gets he ball. QB looks to be handing the ball forward to #52 (hard to see in video since his back is to the camera), #52 then throws a pass to #80 in the EZ.
WOW! Sign that kid up as a read-option QB, because he's got David Copperfield bloodlines. I stand corrected. I had to watch it in super-slow mo to see the ball moving forward on a fake, and never actually leaving the QBs hands. Now, whether or not the toss to A52 is a handoff is a different situation. :sTiR:
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But here's the kicker: we ran the play twice in week 1, and no foul was ever called. I also think our injured player (who will have a limited career in football) should seriously consider taking up officiating when he leaves high school!
You and he should enter the same training class! nAnA
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As we were in practice for week 2, I was watching the offense, and one of our injured players was standing with me. He said, "Coach, isn't that two forward passes?" He was exactly right, ...
I hope that young man is now on your coaching staff, or officiating.
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This rule was put in back in 1943 and was to prevent a play known as a "center rush". The center would begin his snap until the ball touched the QB's hands, draw it back and hopefully waddle for a score. Unable to locate records of many centers scoring touchdowns in that bygone era.
Had a Pop Warner team try this on Saturday. Took our crew a minute to realize what had happened (Center had gained 5 yards). Flagged them for a snap infraction. Coach was adamant that the QB "just had to touch the ball" and his Center could keep it.
Had to burst his bubble. ^flag
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Here is famous trick play with offensive lineman throws forward pass. Ineligible player. There is no rule of declaring ineligible as eligible in college. He was ineligible when he threw pass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX5FeCFYol0&t=10s
I don't know whose rules you are referencing in this given video example, but that was an NCAA game. There was nothing illegal about that down, per NCAA rules. The snapper was also the left end, with an eligible number, so he was eligible to touch the forward pass, as well as be down field. The formation was totally legal. There are no eligibility requirements for a passer. ANY TEAM A PLAYER - regardless of position at the snap or jersey number - may throw a forward pass from in/behind the NZ and before a change of team possession.
If that is different for NFHS, and that's what you are talking about, my apology (I know nothing about NFHS rules).
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How in the hell did we get from a handoff or pass to a lineman to a lineman throwing a pass from a 4 year old thread?
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Also there is an interesting play which must be considered as legal. I think it matches theme of this discussion better than play with forward pass and lateral flip.
Hidden handoff on guard just after the snap. Play is called "Left guard special"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3KrK6Bggp0
Handoff clearly occured on left guard who is not in advance of QB who made handoff. They were on the same yard line when spinned to each other. Restrictions with 180 degrees turn and 2 yards steps to player's end-zone apply only to forward handoff, but not to same yard line handoff. It counts also as backward handoff. Backward handoff is allowed anytime, anywhere on any player without any restrictions
(https://a.radikal.ru/a19/2009/58/3517df90c841.jpg)
Guard is allowed to align on LOS not strictly helmet to helmet with center. He can set as deep as his helmet breaks center's belt level and still be on LOS. If QB sets tightly under center. Well they both will be on the same yard line for backward handoff. Thats a trick.
Really cool smart know-the-rule play
I will flag that every time in one of my college games. If I work a high school game, I will flag it there, too.
That's illegal. That handoff is forward. And the intent of the rule is to prevent this.
You must execute a trick play perfectly. This is not.
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If you flag me for that play I would appeal to league to fine you for incompetence. That would be my reaction
So is it safe to say you aren't an official and you're here just to stir up crap?
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No, actually Im official in Europe, but I insist that some rules must be judged correctly
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I believe Europe uses NCAA or IFAF? You are posting in the NFHS section. If you are going to pick an argument, go pick it with someone who deals with the rule set.