RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: HAshleyTX on September 20, 2016, 12:44:37 PM
-
Our crew called a game at a school who told us they pay with ArbiterPay. We let them know that we do not have an account with AP and that we didn't intend to create one. They told us that they were told that "all of TASO" was on-board with this. I know that our Chapter voted not to participate in the program until there was more info on it. Several members stressed concerns about a third party involvement. My question is...is there someone out there selling this to schools and who is it?
-
I've been using Arbiter Pay for many years and it's great. I don't see the issue. It doesn't cost anything and it's direct to your bank account. Some don't like it because they issue a 1099 at the end.
-
I've been using Arbiter Pay for many years and it's great. I don't see the issue. It doesn't cost anything and it's direct to your bank account. Some don't like it because they issue a 1099 at the end.
Were you forced to do it and told it was the only way you were getting paid?
-
Herb,
Before this year it was used at the College level, so yes, we were "forced" to use it. This year I understand some of the districts are using it as well.
-
I'm not in Texas, but here in AZ we are forced to use it and personally I love it. Makes keeping track and getting paid real easy.
-
Looks like it is here to stay!
Zebra-ware just sold to arbiter. Hope Phillip and Tom made a butt load!
-
Zebra Ware sold out to Arbiter, so some of this will be forth coming.
-
We've been using it for CUSA and Mountain West payments before that. It's good. I don't like that they try to sell you a way to get your money, but you always have the option to move it to your bank account for free.
My understanding is that for the schools that use it, if you don't sign up, that money simply sits in limbo. You may simply not get paid unless you sign up.
Our old buddy Tony Timmons is a salesman for them. Or so I hear.
-
We've been using it for CUSA and Mountain West payments before that. It's good. I don't like that they try to sell you a way to get your money, but you always have the option to move it to your bank account for free.
My understanding is that for the schools that use it, if you don't sign up, that money simply sits in limbo. You may simply not get paid unless you sign up.
Our old buddy Tony Timmons is a salesman for them. Or so I hear.
What do you mean "sell you away..."? You touch on something that I've been kinda stewing on. When you go to the store or movie or wherever to buy services/goods, you pay their price and by means of their choosing. For example if they don't take checks you pay in cash or by card. Why should the school dictate to us (service provider) how they pay us? What if I accept cash or checks but not Arbiter? They don't get to just put it in "limbo" they have to pay.
-
What do you mean "sell you away..."? You touch on something that I've been kinda stewing on. When you go to the store or movie or wherever to buy services/goods, you pay their price and by means of their choosing. For example if they don't take checks you pay in cash or by card. Why should the school dictate to us (service provider) how they pay us? What if I accept cash or checks but not Arbiter? They don't get to just put it in "limbo" they have to pay.
Of course they get to say that, because they have the market power to do so and you agreed by participating. They don't get to dictate payment terms - unless you agree. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Try being a supplier to Wal-Mart and trying to tell them how you'll be paid. You'll take their net 30 or 60 days and like it or you can go away and they'll happily, easily find someone else - unless you have a similar level of market power. So...P&G may be able to negotiate with them, but you won't. That's just the reality. You always have the alternative of saying that the terms of the deal are unsatisfactory and you won't participate - but there's likely a long line behind you who will find it acceptable.
-
Looks like this will be required to start receiving payments.http://www.desoa.com/training/RefPayArbiter.pdf
-
- but there's likely a long line behind you who will find it acceptable.
Considering the dwindling number of officials in the state, that's very debatable and it's also another topic.
Here's a personal story. I gave my account info to Direct TV for auto pay back in 2006. Everything worked fine until one day in 2008 when $1100 was withdrawn from that account by DTV....only it wasn't DTV. Someone had gotten my account info along with that of numerous other people and stole the money. It was HELL getting this fixed and since then I've never given this info to anyone. The info provided was exactly what AP collects to pay you and they are a third party inserting themselves into a process they really have no business muscling in to. Given the issues TASO had with Arbiter with the registration deal, I'm doubly hesitant to join in. I don't think I'm over reacting because I've been stung by this crap. Now, someone is going to say "you can always opt for the Arbiter Debit card or pay by check....FOR A FEE. Why?
-
I cant speak to the politics involved in Texas, but I can share my experience with ArbiterPay from my time calling games in Michigan before I moved down here.
Up in MI, the vast majority of schools were rural and didnt have centralized district offices to pay vendors/officials. So often it was the school AD that executed the payment. This worked great for me as an official, because 90% of the time, the AD was the guy meeting you at the school, and it happened several times where our crew would arrive on site, the game would start, and when we went in for halftime, I would check my phone and have a notification that the game fee had already been deposited. (i.e. the AD went in during the 1st half and clicked the button to execute payment).
When I moved to Texas, it blew my mind that people in the 21st century were still required to hand a piece of paper with an SSN on it to an unknown person at a game site in order to get paid. (huge risk of identity theft imo).
Now, I've heard 2 complaints:
1) guys dont want a 1099 b/c they dont want to report the income on their taxes. I think we all have our opinions on this, and it really has nothing to do with ArbiterPay...and everything to do with whether an individual decides to lose their integrity on their taxes of the pittance we make calling games. People will fall into one camp or the other regardless of if it is Zebra, Arbiter, or the next thing.
2) the aspect of "selling" ways to get your money -- Couple of key things to understand here:
Its a business. they aren't in business out of the kindness of their heart. They offer a product to a niche market and I don't begrudge them offering what I call "products of convenience".
A bank is no different...you have the free checking account that everyone gets, but if you want bells and whistles, then you have to pay a fee.
In ArbiterPay, the free checking account is the basic account you set up. They just move the money around: from the school AP account to Your AP account.
From that point, it is exactly like PayPal. You decide when/how to move your money from the AP account to your local bank account.
If you want a wire transfer, there is a fee each time you do it. Just like a bank.
If you do a generic electronic funds transfer, its free. Just like a bank.
If you want the convenience of a debit card (whether for business expense/accounting purposes, or to keep the money separate from you and your wife's joint account), there is a fee. Its like $6 bucks one time to pay for the plastic...not a reason to get all bent out of shape. You are paying for convenience, IF YOU WANT IT.
-
Considering the dwindling number of officials in the state, that's very debatable and it's also another topic.
Here's a personal story. I gave my account info to Direct TV for auto pay back in 2006. Everything worked fine until one day in 2008 when $1100 was withdrawn from that account by DTV....only it wasn't DTV. Someone had gotten my account info along with that of numerous other people and stole the money. It was HECK getting this fixed and since then I've never given this info to anyone. The info provided was exactly what AP collects to pay you and they are a third party inserting themselves into a process they really have no business muscling in to. Given the issues TASO had with Arbiter with the registration deal, I'm doubly hesitant to join in. I don't think I'm over reacting because I've been stung by this crap. Now, someone is going to say "you can always opt for the Arbiter Debit card or pay by check....FOR A FEE. Why?
A nickel's worth of free advice: Go buy some identity theft protection (not credit monitoring...but the kind of protection where they go clean up the mess on your behalf). Its like $100/year and its 100% worth it.
This is not a "third-party" issue nearly as much as it is a reality we live in during the Digital Age. No one in the world can stop all identity theft. If DirectTV got hacked, there is nothing you can do except pick up the pieces. If you protect yourself, then you have someone else to clean up the mess for you.
The way I see it, if you want to draw your line in the sand with ArbiterPay because you are "giving your info to a third party", then you have two choices:
1) cease doing business with anyone outside of a cash/face-to-face basis (short list getting shorter, and soon you'll be totally off-grid),
or 2) protect yourself and join us in the 21st century.
Fact is, your personal information is at a much greater risk with pieces of paper floating around an athletic office than in a database. All it takes is for one person in that office to realize what you can sell individual SSNs for on the internet.
-
None of our schools have indicated that they will be doing this.
-
Herb, go open an on-line bank account just for officiating pay. I have a Walmart money card account I use just for football. It's really cheap and it takes direct deposits. That way you don't have to hand out your main account info to anyone. Also, you can open another bank account with your main bank and use it just for officiating pay. This isn't going away and fighting it is a losing proposition. You get on-board, or you don't and you never see your pay. It's really that simple. The schools that have signed on are not going to change.
Jason, it's coming your way. Take my work for it. Arbiter just bought out Zebra-Ware, so they are the only playing officiating assigning and pay now. They are cornering the market.
-
ZebraWeb (out of Phildelphia) also offers that service. Arbiter isn't the only one, and I'm sure of you search hard enough you'll find others.
-
Herb, go open an on-line bank account just for officiating pay. I have a Walmart money card account I use just for football. It's really cheap and it takes direct deposits. That way you don't have to hand out your main account info to anyone. Also, you can open another bank account with your main bank and use it just for officiating pay. This isn't going away and fighting it is a losing proposition. You get on-board, or you don't and you never see your pay. It's really that simple. The schools that have signed on are not going to change.
Jason, it's coming your way. Take my work for it. Arbiter just bought out Zebra-Ware, so they are the only playing officiating assigning and pay now. They are cornering the market.
We use arbiter for assigning. I'm just saying our schools decide what they want to use. Arbiter can't force them to use their program.
Another question on how the pay thing works. Do you still give the school a paper paysheet? If not, how do they know who and how much to pay mileage too?
-
Schools can't use Arbiter Pay unless the chapter assigns through Arbiter. There's no mechanism to make the payment and the system doesn't know who to pay.
Unless there is a good reason not to use electronic pay or Arbiter pay specifically, we should go ahead and use this ZW/Arb merger to go to it. However, it will be next year for chapters currently using ZW.
-
"Another question on how the pay thing works. Do you still give the school a paper paysheet? If not, how do they know who and how much to pay mileage too?"
Yes, give them the regular pay sheet. There is a way in Arbiter to show mileage, but there are problems with it. I use a PO box and they use the center of my zip to calculate mileage. No big deal really but it doesn't seem to be very accurate. I'll continue handing the schools my pay sheet for sure.
-
We have had several districts in our area move to ArbiterPay. One just very recently and one has been doing it since early in the year.
The district that has been doing it for a while: We had the game on Friday, got paid the next Thursday. Paid being in my arbiter pay account. We did not have to leave anything at the school and the pay was correct (broken out into pay for mileage @ $15 and the game fee).
The other district is struggling a bit with getting it set up. Hopefully they get it worked out soon because After this weekend I will have had 4 games in the district.
For this district as well, I have not had to leave any paper work. I just wrote my name down and address to confirm its me and we get paid (we got paid, but it wasnt correct, which is what they are working on).
I also call in several other districts that do it the old fashion way. Personally, I wish they would all move to it. I prefer not to leave my personal information lying around (obviously it hasnt stopped me, but it is something i think about).
That is my .02 worth.
-
We have had several districts in our area move to ArbiterPay. One just very recently and one has been doing it since early in the year.
The district that has been doing it for a while: We had the game on Friday, got paid the next Thursday. Paid being in my arbiter pay account. We did not have to leave anything at the school and the pay was correct (broken out into pay for mileage @ $15 and the game fee).
The other district is struggling a bit with getting it set up. Hopefully they get it worked out soon because After this weekend I will have had 4 games in the district.
For this district as well, I have not had to leave any paper work. I just wrote my name down and address to confirm its me and we get paid (we got paid, but it wasnt correct, which is what they are working on).
I also call in several other districts that do it the old fashion way. Personally, I wish they would all move to it. I prefer not to leave my personal information lying around (obviously it hasnt stopped me, but it is something i think about).
That is my .02 worth.
So if you aren't leaving a pay sheet, how do they know who drove or if multiple people drove so that the proper mileage is paid.
-
So if you aren't leaving a pay sheet, how do they know who drove or if multiple people drove so that the proper mileage is paid.
We filled out a sheet, but these are all metro rates, so it is a flat fee per car. I think they just used the fill out sheet to confirm what was already in Arbiter.
-
For most inner city games in San Antonio we do not bring a pay sheet. We just fill theirs out and they know we get metro mileage fee.
-
My 2 cents to offer on this subject too. We use ZW so obviously we have to change for next season but that does not mean it will be Arbiter. There is a group/committee currently evaluating systems and, from what I've heard, the front runner is not Arbiter. Earlier this year a school in our area called our secretary to inform us they were moving to ArbiterPay. They were told we are on ZW with no plans to change with their response being we wouldn't get paid for games. Immediate response was we would not send them officials. Needless to say that school district didn't switch to ArbiterPay.
-
their response being we wouldn't get paid for games.
How exactly did they expect that to go? ???
-
"Another question on how the pay thing works. Do you still give the school a paper paysheet? If not, how do they know who and how much to pay mileage too?"
Yes, give them the regular pay sheet. There is a way in Arbiter to show mileage, but there are problems with it. I use a PO box and they use the center of my zip to calculate mileage. No big deal really but it doesn't seem to be very accurate. I'll continue handing the schools my pay sheet for sure.
My understanding is that the milage is paid based on the number of miles from Arbiter (I think this is the center of your home zip code, and not exactly door to door per GoogleMaps). The variance is so small as to not really worry about imho. You can check any game assignment (or the first game assignment for a given site/day in the case of multiple games at a site on the same day) to see the calculated mileage for that game.
From there it is as simple as telling the AD or game admin who drove on a sign-in sheet (much different than leaving W-9s and SSNs laying around.).
-
My 2 cents to offer on this subject too. We use ZW so obviously we have to change for next season but that does not mean it will be Arbiter. There is a group/committee currently evaluating systems and, from what I've heard, the front runner is not Arbiter. Earlier this year a school in our area called our secretary to inform us they were moving to ArbiterPay. They were told we are on ZW with no plans to change with their response being we wouldn't get paid for games. Immediate response was we would not send them officials. Needless to say that school district didn't switch to ArbiterPay.
TxPan,
Id like to better understand the push back against Arbiter. I personally haven't heard of any other viable alternate provider for game assignment/officials' pay (especially now that ZW was sold). So, maybe your committee/group has some kind of inside scoop...either way, I would personally like to get smarter on why there was such a harsh adversarial response to the school at the suggestion of using Arbiter.
My personal take is that if officials associations are treating our schools as customers, and your customer decides that ArbiterPay works best for them, I would hope there is a very strong alternative readily available for game assignments/pay in order to have firm standing to threaten not servicing that customer. Without that alternative in place, the customer will find an alternate source of officials at the first opportunity...and I know that some guys in our chapter love those long road trips.
-
As a multi-sport assigner, I am very familiar with the quirks of Arbiter (slow servers, error messages, failure to send emails, hour waits for customer service, etc.). After this season it was going to be my recommendation that we change vendors. Now with the buyout of ZebraWare, I do not see an alternative. Those of you researching this, are they other quality vendors of a similar product to evaluate?
-
https://www.zebraweb.org/sec/ (https://www.zebraweb.org/sec/)
-
https://www.zebraweb.org/sec/ (https://www.zebraweb.org/sec/)
PM me if you need contact information. I went with them when Assign by Web folded and the customer service has been great. Arbiter, to this day, hasn't retuned my calls.
-
I will be opening a savings account at my local credit union (requires a $25 deposit). After payment is received I will then transfer that money into my checking account. The most they can steal then would be $25.00. Not having used ArbiterPay yet, I am sure I'll have plenty of questions, but from what I've read and heard from fellow officials that use it already, it's a breeze. So long as I get paid in a timely manner (yeah right), and it makes tracking payments easier, then I'm fine with it. My $.02.
-
I will be opening a savings account at my local credit union (requires a $25 deposit). After payment is received I will then transfer that money into my checking account. The most they can steal then would be $25.00. Not having used ArbiterPay yet, I am sure I'll have plenty of questions, but from what I've read and heard from fellow officials that use it already, it's a breeze. So long as I get paid in a timely manner (yeah right), and it makes tracking payments easier, then I'm fine with it. My $.02.
JB!! What's up!
Arbiter Pay works great. Pay is usually faster. Some things I don't like about it, but really not too bad.
-
TxPan,
Id like to better understand the push back against Arbiter. I personally haven't heard of any other viable alternate provider for game assignment/officials' pay (especially now that ZW was sold). So, maybe your committee/group has some kind of inside scoop...either way, I would personally like to get smarter on why there was such a harsh adversarial response to the school at the suggestion of using Arbiter.
My personal take is that if officials associations are treating our schools as customers, and your customer decides that ArbiterPay works best for them, I would hope there is a very strong alternative readily available for game assignments/pay in order to have firm standing to threaten not servicing that customer. Without that alternative in place, the customer will find an alternate source of officials at the first opportunity...and I know that some guys in our chapter love those long road trips.
My apologies HefnerJM for the delayed response. It’s actually pretty simple. Many in our chapter have expressed bad experiences with Arbiter. Terrible customer support to system functionality. When it comes to ArbiterPay it does not make sense for a chapter to move if only one school is inquiring. And yes, only one school expressed that interest and at that time the acquisition of ZebraWare was not in play.
We do treat our schools like they are our customers but not to the extent that we let that customer dictate how you are going to run your business. It’s a strong enough argument to make that if a customer threatens to not pay you for the service you provide you simply do not provide that service. If you owned your own business (which I do) you also would not have your customer dictate to you what systems/software you’re going to utilize. If these same customers want to find an alternate source of officials they are more than welcome to do so. Losing a few customers would only help us ensure we can appropriately cover games for the good customers. If any chapter has officials willing to drive 7 plus hours one-way to do a game for $60 they are more than welcome to contact our chapter board and request.
-
TXPan,
I think we can all agree that probably the #1 "low-hanging fruit" for Arbiter is to improve their customer support...especially for new customers. Working in the IT industry might make me a little more patient for the realities of a helpdesk support structure than your average user.
I guess I am also speaking through the lens of having worked almost exclusively with Arbiter and only hearing stories of the old days of paper contracts and soliciting schools for games.
From the pay perspective, I also only have two experiences from which to speak: using ArbiterPay (in Michigan) and carrying a W-9/ pay sheet to every game and getting paid by check directly from the schools (in Texas).
Regardless of the level of customer support, the security of information, and speed of pay far outweigh the alternative.
I personally look at the tech support as an issue of stewardship within our chapters...Whenever a chapter adopts a new tool, Arbiter or otherwise, you should have someone identified as the expert for the tool, and that person should be the first point of contact for chapter members. 90% of the questions that are asked could be answered internally if you get a younger, tech savvy member to serve the membership as a front line on how to use a new tool. (in the industry, we actually call it "on-site support").
Then if that person cant answer the question, you allow them to act as the go-between for the customer service with the product supplier. (I personally think this is rarely done because of a reluctance for older members to allow younger members into leadership roles...not just in officiating, but in many business environments as well).
I agree that moving to AP based on one school is probably not justified. I will be interested to hear how the ZW acquisition affects the conversation about assigning software in general and ArbiterPay specifically. But I think it may be hasty to reject the best product on the market because of a few growing pains that could be mitigated by putting the right structures in place.