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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: #92 on December 15, 2016, 06:34:46 AM
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In Rom's 2016 Quiz #4 (http://www.romgilbert.us/q-1604q.htm) his 3rd play reads:
PLAY: 1st/10 B28. The score is A27-B28. Fourth quarter. Team A is out of timeouts. The game clock shows 0:12. A88 advanced for a first down during the down just completed. A56 snaps the ball just after the U starts to step back and before the R gives the ready signal by winding the clock. A18 is sacked (no personal foul) on B's 36.
His ruling (http://www.romgilbert.us/q-1604a.htm):
RULING: A 1/10 B33; Ready. The ball remained a dead ball when A56 snapped the ball (3-4-2-b-6) . The signal is S21, delay of game. The penalty for any dead ball foul incurred after a series ends and before the next ready for play signal shall be enforced before the line to gain is established. Thus, the stakes are reset after the 5-yard penalty is enforced. There is no ZAP 10 option since the clock was stopped when the foul occurred. (Reference: 2012 NCAA Football Bulletin #1 dated July 25, 2012; Play #1)
However, Rule 2-2-4-a (which applies because "A88 advanced for a first down during the down just completed" - no mentioning of him stepping out of bounds) reads:
With the 40-second play clock running, an official places the ball at a hash mark or between the inbounds marks and steps away to his position.
So the ball was ready, no? Of is it about this fraction of a second that lapses between when he "started to step away" and when he "steps away"? Furthermore, Rom talks about the R giving the signal, which he shouldn't because the 40 second play clock applies.
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Can you legally snap the ball during a timeout? I don't think you can, thus after a first down the ball is really ready for play only after the referee has signalled for the game clock to start.
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As I understand it, a timeout wasn't called, it just states Team A has no more timeouts left.
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As I understand it, a timeout wasn't called, it just states Team A has no more timeouts left.
The covering official called for an officials' timeout as the first down was made. This timeout ends, I think, when the referee signals, not before.
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I don't agree.
Since the reason the clock stopped (Team A reaching a first down) is not one of the instances mentioned in Rule 3-2-4-c, the 40 second clock applies. So Rule 2-2-4-a (cited above) applies.
In contrast, Rule 2-2-4-b (which doesn't apply) explicitely mentions the referee sounding his whistle and making a signal.
With the play clock set at 25 seconds, or at 40 seconds after an injury to or loss of helmet by a defensive team player, the referee sounds his whistle and either signals to start the game clock [S2] or signals that the ball is ready for play [S1]. (A.R. 4-1-4-I and II)
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So the ball was ready, no? Of is it about this fraction of a second that lapses between when he "started to step away" and when he "steps away"? Furthermore, Rom talks about the R giving the signal, which he shouldn't because the 40 second play clock applies.
I agree with both you and Rom! haha. I do believe Rom has the correct interpretation, but I do think the definition needs edited/clarified to include that the R has to chop it in on a first down in bounds too.
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I don't agree.
Since the reason the clock stopped (Team A reaching a first down) is not one of the instances mentioned in Rule 3-2-4-c, the 40 second clock applies. So Rule 2-2-4-a (cited above) applies.
If the ball is snapped before R signals, when should the clock start? It can't start on the snap, as this case is not in 3-3-2-d. Should it start after the snap when R manages to signal?
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I agree with both you and Rom! haha. I do believe Rom has the correct interpretation, but I do think the definition needs edited/clarified to include that the R has to chop it in on a first down in bounds too.
Fully agree. As of now, the rules don't provide good support either way.
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I agree with both you and Rom! haha. I do believe Rom has the correct interpretation, but I do think the definition needs edited/clarified to include that the R has to chop it in on a first down in bounds too.
Hmmm, so you guys have the R give a signal before every RFP? In our league (which is not really a reference of course) we have interpreted Rule 2-2-4-a as lifting that need, and just needing the U to step away from the ball to have the RFP. When the 40 second clock applies of course.
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Hmmm, so you guys have the R give a signal before every RFP? In our league (which is not really a reference of course) we have interpreted Rule 2-2-4-a as lifting that need, and just needing the U to step away from the ball to have the RFP. When the 40 second clock applies of course.
No, the R gives S2 when the ball is ready for play and the clock should start at signal. If the clock should start on the snap or is running, no signal is given.
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No, the R gives S2 when the ball is ready for play and the clock should start at signal. If the clock should start on the snap or is running, no signal is given.
Sorry, that's what I meant: S2 before every snap when the game clock is stopped and the 40 second play clock applies.
We see this as redundant.
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Hmmm, so you guys have the R give a signal before every RFP?
No. We are referring specifically to first down gained in bounds in this discussion. I think the rule either needs re-written to include Rom's scenario of umpire leaving and ball snapped before R winds the clock, or it needs to stay as-is and the interpretation changed. Both have valid points. Just tell me which one to do.
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Not an NCAA official but Texas ref. In most cases, the ball is ready to play as soon as the U starts to back up after setting the ball and I wind the game clock when he places it. At the end of halves, I have my U stay at the ball and give the center and QB a verbal signal as soon as he sees me start the wind. If I am out of position for some reason, he will delay that notification until I am in position and start the game clock. This eliminates the problem 99% of the time.
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Rom is correct on his interpretation of the rule. This is really a mechanics issue of how you are working these applicable rules. If the R winds as soon as (simultaneous) the ball is placed on the ground by the umpire or CJ there is no issue. The Umpire should be well aware of the situation and place the ball as he is quickly moving out all in one motion. You will notice that most NCAA Referees are very consistent in the way they wind the clock without any delay when the ball is spotted down after a first down.
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the R gives S2 when the ball is ready for play and the clock should start at signal. If the clock should start on the snap or is running, no signal is given.
Forgive me for asking what may be a silly question: what does S2 refer to? Is this shorthand for the RFP signal?
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Forgive me for asking what may be a silly question: what does S2 refer to? Is this shorthand for the RFP signal?
Signal S2 on page FR-128, signal to start the clock (rotating arm). S1 is the usual RFP signal ie. chopping with the arm.
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Sorry, that's what I meant: S2 before every snap when the game clock is stopped and the 40 second play clock applies.
We see this as redundant.
Umm, why would the R give "start the clock" signal when the clock isn't supposed to start at RFP? The R gives S2 during the 40s play clock only if the game clock was stopped to award team A a first down through play (except after legal kicks) or the ball went out of bounds outside the last two minutes of the half. I don't see how the clock operator could start the game clock properly if S2 is not given in those situations.
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Umm, why would the R give "start the clock" signal when the clock isn't supposed to start at RFP? The R gives S2 during the 40s play clock only if the game clock was stopped to award team A a first down through play (except after legal kicks) or the ball went out of bounds outside the last two minutes of the half. I don't see how the clock operator could start the game clock properly if S2 is not given in those situations.
Ok, I can't seem to get out of my own way in this... What I really meant was: you guys always use S2 when the clock is stopped AND the 40 second clock applies AND the clock should start on the RFP?
Like in a/m Rom's play. Where it seems to me, the stepping away of the U is enough for the ball to be ready.
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Ok, I can't seem to get out of my own way in this... What I really meant was: you guys always use S2 when the clock is stopped AND the 40 second clock applies AND the clock should start on the RFP?
Like in a/m Rom's play. Where it seems to me, the stepping away of the U is enough for the ball to be ready.
Well, we think that the clock operator should be given a positive signal as to when to start the clock, so simply the U stepping off is not enough. This also allows the R to cheat a bit in a blowout by winding the clock when the U has the ball but is still moving towards the next spot.
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Well, we think that the clock operator should be given a positive signal as to when to start the clock, so simply the U stepping off is not enough. This also allows the R to cheat a bit in a blowout by winding the clock when the U has the ball but is still moving towards the next spot.
Fair enough - from a mechanics point of view.
But then going back to a/m play, from a rulebook point of view, there's no foul...
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But then going back to a/m play, from a rulebook point of view, there's no foul...
We can agree to disagree, as the rule book is confusing in this case. I think 3-3-2-e trumps 2-2-4-a.
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We can agree to disagree, as the rule book is confusing in this case. I think 3-3-2-e trumps 2-2-4-a.
I see what you mean. However, 3-3-2-e only talks about the clock, not the readiness of the ball.
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Sorry to resurrect this, but RR is pretty clear in the bulletin play Rom references.
Ball Snapped Before Ready For Play
1. After Team A has made a first down, the Umpire has placed the ball on the ground at the B-30. The Referee waves the Umpire away from the ball but before he signals the ball ready for play, snapper A55 snaps the ball.
RULING: Team A dead-ball foul for delay of game. Five-yard penalty, first and 10 at the B-35. NOTE: This is a foul between series in that it takes place before the ball is declared ready for the next series. Hence it is first and 10, not first and 15. (4-1-1, 4-1-4, 5-2-7)
Marking Ball Ready For Play
2. Late in the second or fourth quarter ball carrier A22 (a) is tackled in the field of play beyond the line to gain; (b) runs out of bounds, either beyond or short of the line to gain. In both (a) and (b) the game clock reads 2:35 when the ball is declared dead.
RULING: In both (a) and (b) the game clock is stopped, and after the ball is declared dead the 40-second clock begins its countdown. When the officials have placed the ball on the ground and moved away at the Referee’s direction, the Referee declares the ball ready for play by blowing his whistle while giving the wind-the-clock signal. (3-3-2-e-1 and -3)
The relevant rules have not changed since 2012, as far as I can tell.
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Is there any way to find these bulletins?
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Is there any way to find these bulletins?
Google/Bing... Refstripes has some of them posted, but I don't know of anybody who has a complete public archive of these. Rom used to have them up, but not any more.
If anybody wants to provide an excellent service to all NCAA/IFAF officials, here's a somewhat easy task - collect them all (since 2010 or so would be excellent) and put them up somewhere.
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Google/Bing... Refstripes has some of them posted, but I don't know of anybody who has a complete public archive of these. Rom used to have them up, but not any more.
If anybody wants to provide an excellent service to all NCAA/IFAF officials, here's a somewhat easy task - collect them all (since 2010 or so would be excellent) and put them up somewhere.
One would think CFO should do this? Or at least work to codify them in to an AR within a certain time frame or they "expire"? Having multiple sources of truth is kind of crazy for such a prominent organization.
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I think all of them are here:
http://www.sccfoa.org/NCAAPlaySituationBulletins.asp
Sorry, if I'm not allowed to make public that link
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I think all of them are here:
http://www.sccfoa.org/NCAAPlaySituationBulletins.asp
Sorry, if I'm not allowed to make public that link
Thank you! And thank you, SCCFOA! I don't think the material is hidden as it is easily reachable from the SCCFOA front page.
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One would think CFO should do this? Or at least work to codify them in to an AR within a certain time frame or they "expire"? Having multiple sources of truth is kind of crazy for such a prominent organization.
I agree, it would make more sense to render all publications null and void as soon as a new Rulebook is published (in which you of course include all needed changes as per those publications)...
Maybe someone can drop this in CFO's suggestion box? ;)
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If they would get a rule change right the first time all of the addendums wouldn't be necessary.
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I started reading these Bulletins, but the first two I read (2000 NCAA Football Play Situations Bulletin #1 - August 2000, points #1 and #2) seem to be in conflict with current Rules... So I wonder if they do in fact have validity?
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Common sense tells me not to put a whole lot of stock on anything that's 16 years old.
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Common sense tells me not to put a whole lot of stock on anything that's 16 years old.
Obviously. I was making a point :)
Where do we draw the line? And more important, where do the powers that be draw the line?
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Technically the bulletin plays apply only to the play situation in question. But, they are insights into the rules committee way of thinking, so I think they are valid as long as the rules they depend on don't change and the secretary of the committee stays the same.
It can be very annoying trying to figure out if a particular rules issue is covered with a valid play situation ruling or not. I once started going through all bulletins and making short metadata out of them so I could then easily search for "passing plays involving the sideline", for example. But then I got bored and the list is now very much out of date.