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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: FLAHL on July 30, 2017, 12:32:23 PM
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If K commits KCI, R can choose:
A) 15 yards from the previous spot
B) Awarded FC at the spot of the foul
C) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty
Why would R ever choose option B instead of C?
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In a game taking place in Unlikelysburg...
K is punting from the K2. K1 shanks the punt and R86 sees the ball and is position to catch the kick at the K10 but K56 blocks him prior to the ball landing (seeing as he wasn't expecting the ultra short shanked kick).
R realizes that this is extra point distance and elects not to move the ball to the 5. Without blockers in the way, K is also more likely to kick the ball lower since there isn't an obvious barrier in the way.
Maybe?
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Thanks NC. That's better than anything I could come up with.
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If K commits KCI, R can choose:
A) 15 yards from the previous spot
B) Awarded FC at the spot of the foul
C) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty
Why would R ever choose option B instead of C?
Wasn't choice C added perhaps 10 years ago? Weren't the only choice before that A & B?
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If K commits KCI, R can choose:
A) 15 yards from the previous spot
B) Awarded FC at the spot of the foul
C) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty
Why would R ever choose option B instead of C?
This would be an outstanding NFHS test question! ncwingman's answer could be one of the choices in the multiple choice portion of the test.
+1 to each of you!
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In a game taking place in Unlikelysburg...
R realizes that this is extra point distance and elects not to move the ball to the 5. Without blockers in the way, K is also more likely to kick the ball lower since there isn't an obvious barrier in the way. Maybe?
Missing left or right is more of an issue than missing low. Five yards closer the target is wider. Almost every coach is going to move up.
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Wasn't choice C added perhaps 10 years ago? Weren't the only choice before that A & B?
It was less than 10... probably 4 or 5. It doesn't make any sense why it's still in there when they made that change.
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It was less than 10... probably 4 or 5. It doesn't make any sense why it's still in there when they made that change.
It seems adding "option C": (C) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty, was intended to add a PSK enforcement option, whereas prior, R's options were limited to ignoring the interference and accepting the FC at the spot, or giving K the option of replaying the down, neither of which seem like adequate motivation for K to avoid the risk of interference (except in unique situations).
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Option C was added in 2013. Option A (previous spot enforcement) needed to stay, as on a booming kick, replaying the down + 15 may give R better possibilities for field position. I don't recall any discussion for keeping Option B, but there may have been one.
I have not mentioned Option B in giving enforcement options. Moving the potential free kick closer wouldn't bring R any closer as the 10 yard neutral zone would, even if it extended into the end zone, remain the same.
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If K commits KCI, R can choose:
A) 15 yards from the previous spot
B) Awarded FC at the spot of the foul
C) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty
Why would R ever choose option B instead of C?
Some :sTiR: ideas:
1) It is an interscholastic sport, one of our missions is to teach critical thinking to all these youngsters.
2) To more closely mirror wording on some of NFHS exam questions so that they mirror the rule book
3) To prove Charles Dickens prophetic....the law is indeed sometimes an BUTT
4) We forgot to remove it
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Some :sTiR: ideas:
1) It is an interscholastic sport, one of our missions is to teach critical thinking to all these youngsters.
2) To more closely mirror wording on some of NFHS exam questions so that they mirror the rule book
3) To prove Charles Dickens prophetic....the law is indeed sometimes an BUTT
4) We forgot to remove it
5) It falls into the same category as 3-4-4h...fire boxes on every street corner....a blacksmith shop for a shoeless horse....a rotary dial phone. The tangible items have disappeared, these rules have not.
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This would be an outstanding NFHS test question! ncwingman's answer could be one of the choices in the multiple choice portion of the test.
+1 to each of you!
I was thinking the same thing. I didn't think you got 15 yards for an Awarded Fair Catch.
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I was thinking the same thing. I didn't think you got 15 yards for an Awarded Fair Catch.
Not sure what you mean...the offended team has one penalty option of 15 yards and an awarded fair catch.....they get this option because of the foul for kick catch interference.
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It seems adding "option C": (C) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty, was intended to add a PSK enforcement option, whereas prior, R's options were limited to ignoring the interference and accepting the FC at the spot, or giving K the option of replaying the down, neither of which seem like adequate motivation for K to avoid the risk of interference (except in unique situations).
Alf; Rulesman, I read your post several times and I'm not sure where you were going with this one? Or, did you just typo?
1- PSK is for R fouls ONLY! (2-16-2h)
2- Since KCI can ONLY be committed by K, KCI could NEVER be a PSK foul.
3- Because of #1 and #2 it is not possible for K to be given the option of Replaying a down for a KCI foul.
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Rulesman, I read your post several times and I'm not sure where you were going with this one? Or, did you just typo?
1- PSK is for R fouls ONLY! (2-16-2h)
2- Since KCI can ONLY be committed by K, KCI could NEVER be a PSK foul.
3- Because of #1 and #2 it is not possible for K to be given the option of Replaying a down for a KCI foul.
Thank you for thinking of me but that wasn't my post.
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Thank you for thinking of me but that wasn't my post.
My mistake, I made the correction to my post in BLUE above!
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It is my understanding that the 3 choices for R are:
A) 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the down
B) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty
C) Take the result of the play.
You can have KCI and still have a return by R which could be more beneficial than a 15 yard penalty.
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It is my understanding that the 3 choices for R are:
A) 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the down
B) Awarded FC after a 15 yard penalty
C) Take the result of the play.
You can have KCI and still have a return by R which could be more beneficial than a 15 yard penalty.
Yes, but there's also...
D) Awarded FC (but decline the 15 yard distance part) penalty
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Not anymore...
kick-catching interference – (S33) – R may accept the results of the play, an awarded fair catch after enforcement of a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul, or a 15-yard penalty from the previous spot and a replay of the down;
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Not anymore...
kick-catching interference – (S33) – R may accept the results of the play, an awarded fair catch after enforcement of a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul, or a 15-yard penalty from the previous spot and a replay of the down;
10-1-1 says otherwise.
"The distance penalty for any foul may be declined."
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This is true, but are you going to give that option on every foul? "Do you want the 10 yards for holding or not take the yardage?"
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This is true, but are you going to give that option on every foul? "Do you want the 10 yards for holding or not take the yardage?"
I was just agreeing with bbeagle that there is indeed 4 options available rather than just 3.
I wouldn't compare a KCI foul which involves a change of possession with fair catch options to a run-of-the-mill holding call. For KCI, yes I would provide this option. For holding on a running play, obviously not.
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Using that logic, what are your options for a holding call on a running play? According to the rule book:
PENALTY: Arts. 1a, 2, 3a, b, d – Illegal use of hands or arms – (S42) – 10 yards; Art. 1b – interlocked blocking – (S44) – 10 yards; Arts. 1c, 3c – holding – (S42) – 10 yards.
You wouldn't give the option to decline the yardage, that would be ridiculous. Why do it with KCI?
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Using that logic, what are your options for a holding call on a running play? According to the rule book:
PENALTY: Arts. 1a, 2, 3a, b, d – Illegal use of hands or arms – (S42) – 10 yards; Art. 1b – interlocked blocking – (S44) – 10 yards; Arts. 1c, 3c – holding – (S42) – 10 yards.
You wouldn't give the option to decline the yardage, that would be ridiculous. Why do it with KCI?
KCI is an odd occurrence with "different" enforcement than usual penalties. Coaches know they always have the option to decline yardage for run-of-the-mill plays like holding on runs, but may not be familiar with their options on KCI fouls, such as taking the spot of the awarded FC in option D.
As I said before, the post wasn't about "providing options to coaches," just the fact that 4 options exist rather than 3.
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I'm not trying to be difficult but do have something that references that? My rule book gives 3 options.
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I'm not trying to be difficult but do have something that references that? My rule book gives 3 options.
10-1-1 in combination with KCI provides this option. The team accepts the penalty and elects your option B, but declines the yardage, creating option D.
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So every foul has that option in combination with 10-1-1. The chances of a coach choosing that option are slim to none. Even for KCI. The only time I've seen it invoked is on a try and the coach tells us he doesn't want the yardage. To give that option on any other foul would be a waste of time, KCI included.
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Not necessarily. If I'm on offense trying to run out the clock, and the defense fouls, I might want the penalty so I can relplay the down, but refuse the distance to get a short stick. For example, a 5yd face mask on a 7 yd run. I might want to replay 1st and three instead of taking the penalty distance and having 1st and 10. Maybe not, but at least I have that option. I'm sure there are other good reasons for providing the no-yardage option as well.
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That's not the point. I'm asking, why would you always include that option on KCI fouls? I'm sure there are more examples where declining the yardage is wise, just not often enough that it would be included on every KCI.
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I'm not trying to be difficult but do have something that references that? My rule book gives 3 options.
You're overthinking it.
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How do you figure I'm overthinking it when all I want to do is what the rule book says instead of mixing and matching rules just to give an option that will more than likely never be chosen.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
Have a good season.
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That's not the point. I'm asking, why would you always include that option on KCI fouls? I'm sure there are more examples where declining the yardage is wise, just not often enough that it would be included on every KCI.
Well, pragmatically I can remember only 2 KCI's in the past 3 years, and to be honest the coach made the decision on all three before I could even present the options. So I guess it's really not that big of a deal.
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How do you figure I'm overthinking it when all I want to do is what the rule book says instead of mixing and matching rules just to give an option that will more than likely never be chosen.
You have to mix and match rules in many situations to come up with a "rule book" reason. Will the "4th option" ever be chosen in this case? Probably not, but "never" is an awfully long time.
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What's your point??
Let's say there is a fair catch made by R1 and then K23 drills him. Are you going to ask the coach if he wants to decline the yardage for the personal foul and just go from the fair catch spot? If you combine the PF foul with 10-1-1 that would be an option, but are you going to do it?
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What's your point??
Let's say there is a fair catch made by R1 and then K23 drills him. Are you going to ask the coach if he wants to decline the yardage for the personal foul and just go from the fair catch spot? If you combine the PF foul with 10-1-1 that would be an option, but are you going to do it?
The point is there is a fourth option. Everyone has agreed that you wouldn't actually bring it up as it's incredibly unlikely to be selected but if the coach wants it for whatever reason he can have it.
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So the NFHS rules (10.1.1) also state that the captains, not the coaches, are the ones notified and select from the penalty enforcement options. Are you going to follow the rules there and let the captains try to sort out all of the options (3 or 4?), or are you going to give the most likely option 1st and pause for a few seconds to see if that's all that's needed?
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Up until a few years ago, the options for R were 15 yards & rekick, awarded FC at the spot, or result of the play. Ralph & his compatriots wisely added the 15+AFC option.
You might argue that "result of the play" isn't really a penalty, but it's still an option.
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Up until a few years ago, the options for R were 15 yards & rekick, awarded FC at the spot, or result of the play. Ralph & his compatriots wisely added the 15+AFC option.
You might argue that "result of the play" isn't really a penalty, but it's still an option.
"The result of the play" is declining the penalty and as Bama said isn't really a penalty option. We didn't take it out, as this long thread illustrates, there may be some situation where it might be beneficial to take the AFC without the yardage (as of yet, no one has figured out when).
Time for a quiz.....when would the clock start ??? ??? ???
(1) 4th & 6 @50, R fair catches @ R's 30 but is ^flag as 12th R player fails to get off the field prior to snap (doesn't participate).
(2) Same as above, only kick rolls dead at R's 30.
(3) Same field position but K is ^flag for KCI @ R's 10 and R chooses previous spot enforcement.
You make the call....
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Up until a few years ago, the options for R were 15 yards & rekick, awarded FC at the spot, or result of the play. Ralph & his compatriots wisely added the 15+AFC option.
You might argue that "result of the play" isn't really a penalty, but it's still an option.
This is my point. "Awarded fair catch at the spot" is not an option any longer. If they choose to to take the awarded fair catch +15 and then wave the 15 yards that's up to them, but I wouldn't give "Awarded fair catch at the spot" as a 4th option. That's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.
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Time for a quiz.....when would the clock start ??? ??? ???
(1) 4th & 6 @50, R fair catches @ R's 30 but is ^flag as 12th R player fails to get off the field prior to snap (doesn't participate).
(2) Same as above, only kick rolls dead at R's 30.
(3) Same field position but K is ^flag for KCI @ R's 10 and R chooses previous spot enforcement.
You make the call....
1 - the clock stopped due to the fair catch. Replay the down as 4th and 1 from the 45; start the clock on the snap.
2 - Replay the down as in 1, but the clock starts on the ready, unless the foul occurred in the last 2 minutes and R chooses to start on the snap
3 - Replay the down as 4th and 21 from the K 35. The clock starts on the ready, unless the foul occurred in the last 2 minutes and R chooses to start on the snap
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1 - the clock stopped due to the fair catch. Replay the down as 4th and 1 from the 45; start the clock on the snap.
2 - Replay the down as in 1, but the clock starts on the ready, unless the foul occurred in the last 2 minutes and R chooses to start on the snap
3 - Replay the down as 4th and 21 from the K 35. The clock starts on the ready, unless the foul occurred in the last 2 minutes and R chooses to start on the snap
aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd ^TD ^good FlAg1 GREAT JOB, VALC....
CUBBIE/RED SOX COMING RIGHT UP!!!