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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: ElvisLives on August 18, 2018, 07:27:33 AM
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For what it is worth, saw no knee pad issues at scrimmage last night, and only had to remind a handful of players to keep their undershirts tucked in and jerseys pulled down (to cover back pads).
I hope everyone works hard in scrimmages to keep this cleaned up, so it isn’t something that causes any angst for anyone when games begin.
Have a good time. I / we did.
Robert
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Be glad that you weren't at our 4 hour scrimmage last night. Kids don't understand that their knees have to be covered, and it appeared that the coaches have not taken care of this. I understand that they have only had a year or more to get ready for this tough coaching enforcement. Sheesh.
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Someone told me that the UIL has stated they have informed Coaches & AD's for past 3 years this was coming. So they would be able to address in their upcoming buying cycles for uniforms.
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Had no issue with it in the scrimmage I worked this past weekend. The two teams I worked were well aware of the rule and coaches were more than happy to have their kids be compliant. Cannot say the same thing for video footage I viewed from games being played in/around Lubbock. Many of those kids had their pants pulled up two inches above their knees and apparently the officials working that scrimmage were not using that opportunity to correct the situation.
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We had a small school scrimmage and the first play from scrimmage I noticed the center had his pants way above his knees and he was probably about 6'6". I told the coach the kid had to get it fixed or he couldn't participate. He easily pulled then down but had to do that after each play. The coach said that was the longest pants they had and new ones were arriving the following week. Sure. Then I saw a tall skinny receiver that had his pants way above his knees but had very high white socks on as to hide the fact his pants were way too short, and he had no knee pads in. When I told the coach he couldn't participate, he got upset with the kid and told him "I told you they call you out on that, go change." So we stop the scrimmage for 5 minute while he ran back to the dressing room to change. This is going to be a real battle early on. I hope we all stick to it and don't let this kids play.
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I am curious to see how bad week one is going to be with this issue. I know at our scrimmage we had to constantly remind the players to pull their pants down. One coach said our new pants won't be in until next week as well. In his defense, he did change schools during the summer months, but the administrators & coaches have known of this issue. I, myself, am no afraid to send anyone off for uniform violations. Just hope everyone is steadfast on this issue.
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I am curious to see how bad week one is going to be with this issue. I know at our scrimmage we had to constantly remind the players to pull their pants down. One coach said our new pants won't be in until next week as well. In his defense, he did change schools during the summer months, but the administrators & coaches have known of this issue. I, myself, am no afraid to send anyone off for uniform violations. Just hope everyone is steadfast on this issue.
Got to be done JB. if we don't do it as a chapter, we are really hurting the next crew.
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We all know that we will hear, "no one said anything about them last week"
We were instructed if the whole team has short pants we let them play, file a report with UIL. But what if 1/2 the team has short pants? Do we let only the half with legal pants play? At what number do we make them sit out or get legal? "if its only a handfull, make them sit out", but how many are a handfull? 3...5...10? It may get real fun for a while as the fashion police.
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We all know that we will hear, "no one said anything about them last week"
We were instructed if the whole team has short pants we let them play, file a report with UIL. But what if 1/2 the team has short pants? Do we let only the half with legal pants play? At what number do we make them sit out or get legal? "if its only a handfull, make them sit out", but how many are a handfull? 3...5...10? It may get real fun for a while as the fashion police.
Who gave you that instruction? We posed that scenario to the top and this is the reply.
"The likelihood that an entire team will be warring (sic) pants that do not cover the knees, is remote. However, in the minute chance that it does occur, I don’t think we want to be in a situation where we let a player participate with known illegal uniforms or equipment."
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Who gave you that instruction? We posed that scenario to the top and this is the reply.
"The likelihood that an entire team will be warring (sic) pants that do not cover the knees, is remote. However, in the minute chance that it does occur, I don’t think we want to be in a situation where we let a player participate with known illegal uniforms or equipment."
Exactly. They’ll only do it once, if we hold the line.
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Instruction game for our chapter leadership.
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Instruction game for our chapter leadership.
Just know that our bosses don't agree. You may want them to check as well so they can get the same clarification as we did. Perhaps they meant that if nobody is compliant then nobody can play and then you submit the incident report. If every players shows up without a helmet are you going to let them play and then just do an incident report?
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No misunderstanding, they said let them play. But for the record I agree with you. It is a RULE for a reason.
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Instruction game for our chapter leadership.
If you're still in the chapter I think you're in, I can see that coming from the leadership of that chapter. The whole coaches pick thing has everyone walking on egg shells with this type of stuff. Every chapter needs leadership that will be firm with the coaches on all matters. If we let this go, what other rules are we going to let them bend or break? This is a safety issue, and our job 1 is to make sure the game is safe.
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If you're still in the chapter I think you're in, I can see that coming from the leadership of that chapter. The whole coaches pick thing has everyone walking on egg shells with this type of stuff. Every chapter needs leadership that will firm with the coaches on all matters. If we let this go, what other rules are we going to let them bend or break? This is a safety issue, and our job 1 is to make sure the game is safe.
Wonder what will happen when those coaches say they don't like the new blocking below the waist rule? I guess give in and let them play the way they want. :sTiR:
When one chapter enforces the rule and another one don't, then this is where we get the ole saying, "Well they didn't enforce it last weeks so why are you?" and "Why can't you guys be consistent?"
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Scrimmage today. Team showed up wearing girdle pads, gym shorts and volleyball knee pads. When I approached the coach, he pulled out an email from UIL headquarters. A scrimmage is not a game so pants are not required.
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Scrimmage today. Team showed up wearing girdle pads, gym shorts and volleyball knee pads. When I approached the coach, he pulled out an email from UIL headquarters. A scrimmage is not a game so pants are not required.
It's not required but if there are officials there we are to enforce the rules.
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The email said game rules are for pants and a scrimmage is not a game. It said UIL was not going to split hairs in scrimmages. I was going to file an incident report but per UIL email there was no incident.
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A guy gets hurt while not wearing proper equipment, and you were there officiating the scrimmage. Who do you think the lawyer is going to name in the lawsuit? Be assured you will be included. Do you think thev U.I.L. will come to your defense?
If they don’t want to play by the rules related to play of the game, including anything related to player safety, they don’t need you. Wave as you leave.
Robert
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The email said game rules are for pants and a scrimmage is not a game. It said UIL was not going to split hairs in scrimmages. I was going to file an incident report but per UIL email there was no incident.
Some things never change. They expect us to enforce the rules, then they do this. OK, it is a practice. You can practice without officials, who are working for free! I think I'd say, great email coach. Have fun without us. We are leaving.
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TASO has always told chapters not to work scrimmages when teams are not in proper pants and pads. Once again, when we don’t all follow the rules we cause our own problems.
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No misunderstanding, they said let them play. But for the record I agree with you. It is a RULE for a reason.
You need new chapter leadership immediately. Telling members to defy TASO’s instructions is not smart nor responsible leadership. Crews can and should be suspended if they do that, along with the leaders that told them to.
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TASO has always told chapters not to work scrimmages when teams are not in proper pants and pads. Once again, when we don’t all follow the rules we cause our own problems.
Exactly. TASO told us if we walked on the field and either team was in that attire, we were to not participate. I don't work for the UIL. I follow the rules of the association that provides me with insurance and who will represent me. It is true they can play all they want, but as already mentioned, without officials.
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This is an interesting topic. Last post for me on the subject.
1) The school was not from our area. We would penalize the school we do work for because of the other team's choice of uniforms.
2) The coach did his due diligence in contacting the UIL asking for clarification. In fact, his players were probably more protected than the properly dressed school.
3) I call BS on the rule argument. How many of you have worked scrimmages already that neither team was wearing numbers, had the coaches and players on the field during plays, etc etc?
The problem is a disconnect between UIL and TASO, not the chapter, chapter leadership or crews.
If I get disciplined for working this scrimmage or for this social media post, I will just retire. I have had a great career working with many great men. I would work Friday night for free because being out there gives me goosebumps after every National Anthem.
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The problem is a disconnect between UIL and TASO, not the chapter, chapter leadership or crews.
For the record, my comment on chapter leadership was for copedaddy, whose “leaders” told him to work a game even if no player has pants that cover the knees, despite TASO saying the opposite.
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Exactly. TASO told us if we walked on the field and either team was in that attire, we were to not participate. I don't work for the UIL. I follow the rules of the association that provides me with insurance and who will represent me. It is true they can play all they want, but as already mentioned, without officials.
yEs: pHiNzuP tiphat:
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Went through this same argument about 10-12 years ago. At that time the UIL Constitution said scrimmages between two schools were contests.
I would like to see who the author of that email was. Was it from some underling with a thump thump background?
How many "practices" have officials assigned to them?
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Same story last night, coach" I read rules and volley ball pads ok as long as pants are over them" He's still shaking his head that all is great. If you took notice, all the pans were new and not a knee pad pocket in them. Hope they take it out of his salary.
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Same story last night, coach" I read rules and volley ball pads ok as long as pants are over them" He's still shaking his head that all is great. If you took notice, all the pans were new and not a knee pad pocket in them. Hope they take it out of his salary.
Uh, he's right. Pads don't have to be in pockets in the pants. They certainly may be, and that definitely gives the greatest protection. But the interpretation directly from Redding's mouth at the State Meeting was that they could, in fact, use sleeve-type knee pads, as long as they are covered by the pants. That is the same message that all TASO clinicians were told to present in regional workshops.
Robert
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Whether it is eye shields, pants, doo rags, mouth pieces some of these kids/coaches/schools are going to try to push the limit.
Hang tough and they will get with the program
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Just worked a 5A scrimmage in Lubbock, and we only had an issue with two players for knee pads, and coaches completely supported getting them fixed, and they did. Same with undershirts. Got ‘em pulled up and/or tucked in, and they understood and had no problem getting in compliance.
I am not expecting much issue next week.
Robert
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Uh, he's right. Pads don't have to be in pockets in the pants. They certainly may be, and that definitely gives the greatest protection. But the interpretation directly from Redding's mouth at the State Meeting was that they could, in fact, use sleeve-type knee pads, as long as they are covered by the pants. That is the same message that all TASO clinicians were told to present in regional workshops.
Robert
Absolutely correct.
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Regarding the post that a Coach had a letter saying the required equipment is not required in a scrimmage, I would have asked the Coach if I could have the letter or at least see who signed it from UIL. That is not consistent with any message I have heard from the UIL, TASO or in my case our Chapter leadership. Either way, I would have submitted a UIL incident report and described all of this and the team so that UIL can address.
Someone said it earlier, we should not let the fact that coaches have a say in selecting the crew that works their game dictate which rules we are going to enforce and not enforce.
If we all stand together across the State there is no issue.
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Regarding the post that a Coach had a letter saying the required equipment is not required in a scrimmage, I would have asked the Coach if I could have the letter or at least see who signed it from UIL. That is not consistent with any message I have heard from the UIL, TASO or in my case our Chapter leadership. Either way, I would have submitted a UIL incident report and described all of this and the team so that UIL can address.
Someone said it earlier, we should not let the fact that coaches have a say in selecting the crew that works their game dictate which rules we are going to enforce and not enforce.
If we all stand together across the State there is no issue.
Scrimmages are over now, but if I had a coach show me a letter that said something other than required equipment is OK for scrimmages, I’d say, “ OK. Enjoy the scrimmage. Hope you get what you need accomplished without officials. We’ll be leaving, now, unless you can get your team properly equipped.”
They can scrimmage however they want. But if they want our participation, then they need to fully and properly equip their players. We simply cannot accept the liability of participating in any activity where the players are not protected according to rule. The UIL can allow their members to conduct activities with less than full compliance, if they want. But, we are not responsible to the UIL, and the UIL has no jurisdiction over us. We can’t put ourselves at risk. They balk, we walk.
Robert
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Scrimmages are over now, but if I had a coach show me a letter that said something other than required equipment is OK for scrimmages, I’d say, “ OK. Enjoy the scrimmage. Hope you get what you need accomplished without officials. We’ll be leaving, now, unless you can get your team properly equipped.”
They can scrimmage however they want. But if they want our participation, then they need to fully and properly equip their players. We simply cannot accept the liability of participating in any activity where the players are not protected according to rule. The UIL can allow their members to conduct activities with less than full compliance, if they want. But, we are not responsible to the UIL, and the UIL has no jurisdiction over us. We can’t put ourselves at risk. They balk, we walk.
Robert
:thumbup
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Ok, I changed my mind. I come to this site every day to learn from other's experiences but you don't know what you would do until faced with it.
1. I talked to both coaches.
2. I read the email from the HIGHEST UIL football AAD.
3. I gave the coach my card and he forwarded the email to me.
4. We took pictures.
5. We did not punish a school that we call for because of a school we do not call for.
6. We made sure that knees were covered.
7. I did not file a UIL incident report because I already had their determination.
8. I copied both the chapter president and vp on the email and pics.
9. They forwarded to the appropriate TASO official.
If any of you would have handled it differently, good for you.
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Would you mind posting that email or pic of it to this forum? I think you handled it well, although I would have still filed an incident report in my humble opinion. The reason for that would be to point out to UIL they are telling Coaches one thing and telling Officials another thing. Albeit, would it change anything - not sure but can't hurt.
Thanks.
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I just spoke with one of our coaches and he tells me that the UIL told him that as long as the knees are covered with the pad they are good. They apparently told him the pants aren't what protects the knees it is the pad. If that is their interpretation then they better put out a rules exception mighty quick. This he said, she said stuff just don't cut it.
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I just spoke with one of our coaches and he tells me that the UIL told him that as long as the knees are covered with the pad they are good. They apparently told him the pants aren't what protects the knees it is the pad. If that is their interpretation then they better put out a rules exception mighty quick. This he said, she said stuff just don't cut it.
He's correct, the pants arent the protector and you DONT have to have pads in the actual pants. But what you DO have to have is the pad 100% covered by rule and the pants must also 100% cover the knee. So if you're wearing volleyball knee pads, that's legal but they have to be covered up and they must cover the knee
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He's correct, the pants arent the protector and you DONT have to have pads in the actual pants. But what you DO have to have is the pad 100% covered by rule and the pants must also 100% cover the knee. So if you're wearing volleyball knee pads, that's legal but they have to be covered up and they must cover the knee
Exactly. He has several players 6 ft 4 in. and wearing pants designed for a 5' 7" player and they only go down to about 6 inches above the knee so basically they are wearing biker shorts. The pads are the girdle type and the knee pads extend well below the pants and cover the knee completely. According to him, the UIL has told him that is fine. I said no, because the pants also have to cover the knee.
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Exactly. He has several players 6 ft 4 in. and wearing pants designed for a 5' 7" player and they only go down to about 6 inches above the knee so basically they are wearing biker shorts. The pads are the girdle type and the knee pads extend well below the pants and cover the knee completely. According to him, the UIL has told him that is fine. I said no, because the pants also have to cover the knee.
You're in San Antonio, right?
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You're in San Antonio, right?
Nope. About 6 hours North of there.
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If that is their interpretation then they better put out a rules exception mighty quick. This he said, she said stuff just don't cut it.
I think we are all with you. Lacking an Exception from the UIL (in writing, directly to TASO), we simply must observe the rule that was accepted by the UIL, and that says the pad must cover the knee, and the pants must cover the knee and pad.
Robert
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Once again all powerful Superintendents will cover for their inefficient coaches and tell the UIL, who works for them, to change the rule.
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Nope. About 6 hours North of there.
On a light traffic day yEs:
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Once again all powerful Superintendents will cover for their inefficient coaches and tell the UIL, who works for them, to change the rule.
Check your email boys. Some changes have been made.
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I hope nobody is surprised.
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Come on guys, share for those who are external to the great state :-)
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Come on guys, share for those who are external to the great state :-)
Basically, if a player is wearing basketball-type knee pads, the pants do not have to cover them. The pant leg must overlap so that no skin is showing but does not have to cover the pad.
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Check your email boys. Some changes have been made.
OK where was this email sent?
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https://www.brainshark.com/taso/vu?pi=zHezmFxRNzOv3Nz0
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Basically, if a player is wearing basketball-type knee pads, the pants do not have to cover them. The pant leg must overlap so that no skin is showing but does not have to cover the pad.
Just another example of UIL cutting officials off at the knee. Tell the officials one thing and then back track. Glad I retired!!
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I think UIL is looking at the safety intent. And that intent is met by having the volleyball/Basketball pads over the knees. As for the pants then being over the pads, that truly is a cosmetic issue so who really cares. I know they might at NCAA where they are concerned about TV but we dont have that problem. I suspect part of it may be due to problem with some of the pants being so tight they might not be able to get them over those pads.
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I think UIL is looking at the safety intent. And that intent is met by having the volleyball/Basketball pads over the knees. As for the pants then being over the pads, that truly is a cosmetic issue so who really cares. I know they might at NCAA where they are concerned about TV but we dont have that problem. I suspect part of it may be due to problem with some of the pants being so tight they might not be able to get them over those pads.
I agree, Mike. The intent is safety. It would have been good if the UIL could have given clear guidance from the beginning. Anything that clouds this issue adds confusion and ammo for coaches to say they don't understand.
On another issue, I'm glad we are not stopping the clock initially to remove these players. I'm my opinion, if not towards the end of the half or game, keep that play clock running and reset to 25 if you need to, maybe a few times. OK, maybe not more than once, but I like keeping that clock running.
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UIL and clear guidance should not be in the same sentence
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UIL and clear guidance should not be in the same sentence
yEs: yEs: yEs: