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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: bmem66 on September 10, 2018, 08:31:36 AM
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Although it will probably never happen, I have a question about the free kick after a fair catch rule. Keeping it simple and omitting all of the other things that can happen like a dog running on the field and K wearing a tinted face shield during the play, for a free kick (like a kickoff), once the ball has traveled 10 yards, it can be possessed by either K or R and either team can gain possession. For a scrimmage kick (field goal or a punt), the R team can return the kick or K can ground it or let it roll dead and it is R’s ball at that spot if the ball doesn’t reach the goal line. But for a FREE kick by R after an awarded fair catch, if the ball is kicked short and does not cross the goal line, can K take possession of the ball like they can do on a kickoff FREE kick? Basically, is it a live ball that can be possessed by either team? Or is it considered more like a scrimmage kick and the ball will either be returned by R, grounded or blown dead like a typical punt or field goal that doesn’t reach the goal line? Just want to know because we are calling it a “free” kick by rule.
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A free kick is a free kick, and free kick rules apply. A team choosing to free kick after a fair catch could theoretically try an onside kick. Although I’m not sure why they would.
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And yes, R can catch it and run with it before the ball crosses the GL.
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So it is possible for R to make be awarded a fair catch with 15 seconds to play in the game and they are trailing 7-6 . They then become K and try a free kick from let's say the R40. The kick is poor and rolls to the 10 yard line. K runs down field and falls on the ball at the 10. K now has the ball 1st and goal at the 10 and kicks a field goal to win the game. This scenario could happen as the play was a free kick and is a live ball for either team to take possession?
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Yes.
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That would be tough to explain.
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how so?
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Let me rephrase. Easy to explain. May be tough for a coach to understand.
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I agree with that.
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I agree with that.
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FC>FK is high on my bucket list. K would know what they are doing, R probably not. I don't feel it is coaching to inform R that they need to line up just like they would for a kickoff, and just like a kickoff, K can recover the kick if it's gone 10 yards. I would then...
(1) set the chains - they help establish the 10 yard neutral zone and mark K's free kick line;
(2) Join sNiCkErS the umpire sNiCkErS under the pipes as we prepare to check one off our bucket lists.
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Last year I thought I was going to have my first. 4th down with A backed up at the end of the half in a tight game. B calls timeout and coach of B tells us what he's planning. Tells his three receivers to call fair catch no matter what. Unfortunately the high school punter had other ideas. Fumbled the snap, then made a makeshift rugby punt while running for his life. Ball never really got into the air and was rolling on the ground long before it got to a receiver. No fair catch, no free kick for score...
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I've had a few coaches mention the possibility over the years, but it never materialized. IMHO, you need a "perfect storm" for it to occur:
(1) Near the end of a half, with little time left for anything but;
(2) a game where a FG would be important - 40-0 = NO;
(3) a kicker with capabilities ;
(4) a coach that knows the rule.
Things to remember, IF it ever occurs:
(1) With our new "tack-on" rule the penalty measurement may bring the ball within field goal range;
(2) If there is an accepted live ball foul during the first scrimmage down after the FC, the option to FK would return;
(3) unlike the NFL code, a tee can be used;
(4) all free kick rules would apply INCLUDING starting the clock - if kick sails into EZ and beyond, no clock movement.
Other useless facts about this option....
I'm told that this was left over from the old return kick rule that was removed in 1965.
Starting the clock on the snap following a FC (3-4-3j) was put in so this option would be treated the same as any kickoff (not needed since our timing change on COP in 1996).
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This is not EXACTLY on point; but I just read in the 2018 Reddings Guide (pg 61 under "Next Play), that following a legal fair catch, "the ball is to spotted at the spot of the catch unless it is caught in a side zone in which case it is moved to the nearest hash mark".
It has always been our understanding that, following a legal fair catch, R could snap the ball from anywhere on the yard line on which it was caught...
This never appeared in previous editions if the Reddings Guide; and I cannot find any corresponding POE, Rule change, or NFHS interpretation to support it - but, then I don't have the latest Manual.
Can anyone point me to the right source to verify George's recent addition?
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This is not EXACTLY on point; but I just read in the 2018 Reddings Guide (pg 61 under "Next Play), that following a legal fair catch, "the ball is to spotted at the spot of the catch unless it is caught in a side zone in which case it is moved to the nearest hash mark".
It has always been our understanding that, following a legal fair catch, R could snap the ball from anywhere on the yard line on which it was caught...
This never appeared in previous editions if the Reddings Guide; and I cannot find any corresponding POE, Rule change, or NFHS interpretation to support it - but, then I don't have the latest Manual.
Can anyone point me to the right source to verify George's recent addition?
Rule 6-5-4 " The captain may choose to free kick or snap anywhere between the hash marks: ..."
IMO, Redding refers to initial placement of the ball following the fair catch, but the captain can choose to move it, similar to a try when it is placed midfield, then can be moved on request.
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on page 70 of the 2017 Redding guide: "When a fair catch is made or awarded, and either of the above apply, the offensive team's captain may choose to free kick for a field goal or snap anywhere between the hash marks. (6-5-4).
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Rule 6-5-4 " The captain may choose to free kick or snap anywhere between the hash marks: ..."
IMO, Redding refers to initial placement of the ball following the fair catch, but the captain can choose to move it, similar to a try when it is placed midfield, then can be moved on request.
on page 70 of the 2017 Redding guide: "When a fair catch is made or awarded, and either of the above apply, the offensive team's captain may choose to free kick for a field goal or snap anywhere between the hash marks. (6-5-4).
Thanks guys (I didn't read far enough) hEaDbAnG; glad nothing actually changed; but I wonder why George added the shaded (implying new) paragraph in the 2018 Guide when it was fully covered later... :!#
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(2) If there is an accepted live ball foul during the first scrimmage down after the FC, the option to FK would return;
So we could have:
B punts to A, A fair catch at 50.
A attempts a hail mary and on the play B99 roughes the passer. Ball moved to B35.
A can now attempt the FK even though they didn't initially attempt one?
This might actually be the most likely situation that the FC ---> FK would occur, with the offensive team being out of FG range but then being put in FG range by a personal foul or PI. Would it be wrong of the official to remind the offended coach that his FK option is still available after the enforcement of the penalty?
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So we could have:
B punts to A, A fair catch at 50.
A attempts a hail mary and on the play B99 roughes the passer. Ball moved to B35.
A can now attempt the FK even though they didn't initially attempt one?
This might actually be the most likely situation that the FC ---> FK would occur, with the offensive team being out of FG range but then being put in FG range by a personal foul or PI. Would it be wrong of the official to remind the offended coach that his FK option is still available after the enforcement of the penalty?
True, I went through this the year we allowed KCI to be a succeeding spot foul with the coaches. Most knew of the FC>FK option, but none knew of the KCI> awarded FC+15 > FK option. That would extend to any live ball foul on the first scrimmage down after the FC and could work both ways. Consider:
(1) K1 kicks a 40 yd FG from R's 30 from FK;
(2) K2 kicks R1 in the "baby-makers" while kick is airborne;
(3) a 55 yd FG is out of K1 range after penalty;
(4) K could become A @ 1st & 25 from R's 45.
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A can now attempt the FK even though they didn't initially attempt one?
Does anyone know if this option is still available after a play in the NFL?
For example,
B punts to A, A fair catch at 50.
A attempts a hail mary and on the play and B99 causes pass interference on the B6.
A can now attempt the FK even though they didn't initially attempt one, with the ball placed at the B6?
Would the defense be permitted to line up at their goal-line (6 yards away), or must they be 4 yards deep into their end zone (to create free-kick lines of 10 yards?)
Say there was :01 on the clock, and Team A is losing by 2. Would a kickoff that can score a field goal from the 6 be a better option than one play from the one yard line?
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For those getting 91 or better on the state test; your 10 point bonus question is:
On a Free Kick following a safety, in 4 or 5 man mechanics, which two officials are positioned under the goal to rule on the kick attempt?
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In 5 man, it's the U and the R.
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Why the B6?
Does anyone know if this option is still available after a play in the NFL?
For example,
B punts to A, A fair catch at 50.
A attempts a hail mary and on the play and B99 causes pass interference on the B6.
A can now attempt the FK even though they didn't initially attempt one, with the ball placed at the B6?
Would the defense be permitted to line up at their goal-line (6 yards away), or must they be 4 yards deep into their end zone (to create free-kick lines of 10 yards?)
Say there was :01 on the clock, and Team A is losing by 2. Would a kickoff that can score a field goal from the 6 be a better option than one play from the one yard line?
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For those getting 91 or better on the state test; your 10 point bonus question is:
On a Free Kick following a safety, in 4 or 5 man mechanics, which two officials are positioned under the goal to rule on the kick attempt?
A free kick following a safety can not score.
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A free kick following a safety can not score.
I fell for it, didn't I? hEaDbAnG
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Why the B6?
The question was in NFL context, so NFL enforcement of the DPI. However, after looking through the NFL rulebook, they aren't as explicit about retaining the option after a penalty as Fed rules are.
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For those getting 91 or better on the state test; your 10 point bonus question is:
On a Free Kick following a safety, in 4 or 5 man mechanics, which two officials are positioned under the goal to rule on the kick attempt?
Dang it, I fell for it too...