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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: theride on November 13, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
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How many states have the referee announce the numbers when giving penalty enforcement? I know Ohio does, but WV does not.
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Numbers not announced per NFHS, unless a State would allow for it.
In fl - no.
BUT in reality, the split-second there's a penalty, most of the coaching staff asks 'what number?' - which is generally heard in the 3rd row by everyone as the R would tell them from mid-field.
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In Texas, as the only state still following NCAA rules for high school football, we announce numbers. No negative impact to the game or players.
Robert
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No PA announcement in Alabama. However, most (if not all) crews now use some type of O2O system. The coaches know they will be given a number fairly quickly, so they don’t yell nearly as much.
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In Maine the white hat announces the number along with the foul, acceptance or not, down & distance to the press box. If the fouling player is of the team opposite the press box, the player's number will be relayed to the coach. I haven't had any problems arise. In basketball ,the player's number is shown in neon lights!.
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Numbers not announced per NFHS, unless a State would allow for it.
I thought this was changed a few years back in the manual to allow announcing numbers. Did they change it back? See attached excerpt from 2014-15
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Pennsylvania is not allowed to announce numbers.
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NFHS manual allows numbers to be announced. But many states do not use the NFHS manual, so check your local listings.
Personally, the idea that not announcing the number saves a kid from embarrassment is just stupid. Players who foul are announced by name and number over the speaker in basketball and there aren't any issues.
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How many fouls are there where anyone paying attention can see who it is?
e.g., false start, encroachment , DPI, roughing, intentional grounding, late hit, etc.
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Fed allows, individual states, such as us, did not adopt it.
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We are rarely on the microphone so the number announcement is usually no big deal- we still tell the coaches. Last year was the one and only time I had an AD specifically ask that we do not announce the number (even though we were not on a mic) as he thought it embarrassed the player. We did tell the coach when he asked.
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NFHS manual allows numbers to be announced. But many states do not use the NFHS manual, so check your local listings.
Personally, the idea that not announcing the number saves a kid from embarrassment is just stupid. Players who foul are announced by name and number over the speaker in basketball and there aren't any issues.
When i was in high school the basketball players had to raise their hand when called on a foul...
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When i was in high school the basketball players had to raise their hand when called on a foul...
That was back in the day when we accepted our errors and moved on. Today, I am not sure we can embarrass the kiddies without damaging them for life. :puke:
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That was back in the day when we accepted our errors and moved on. Today, I am not sure we can embarrass the kiddies without damaging them for life. :puke:
I hope they don't go on to play basketball! Hearing the PA announcer : "..foul on number 23, that's his 4th...." might require crisis control. :puke: :puke:
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Forgive me, but is there a relevant, material reason why ANYONE other than the game Coaches, and the offending player and field officials who needs to know the identity of the offending player, aside from when a player is disqualified (at the NFHS level)?
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Forgive me, but is there a relevant, material reason why ANYONE other than the game Coaches, and the offending player and field officials who needs to know the identity of the offending player, aside from when a player is disqualified (at the NFHS level)?
There are quite a few HS games on TV nowadays, and announcing the numbers aids the broadcasters. That said, I have worked TV games where I had a “TV only” mic that served both purposes.
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Forgive me, but is there a relevant, material reason why ANYONE other than the game Coaches, and the offending player and field officials who needs to know the identity of the offending player, aside from when a player is disqualified (at the NFHS level)?
Aiding the broadcasters ???
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Forgive me, but is there a relevant, material reason why ANYONE other than the game Coaches, and the offending player and field officials who needs to know the identity of the offending player, aside from when a player is disqualified (at the NFHS level)?
I’ll answer that with a question: Why were referee’s first outfitted with microphones to begin with?
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For television
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This past weekend I attended a couple of ice hockey games (ice freezes much quicker up here). When a penalty is called there, not only does the naughty party have his number posted on the scoreboard for 2/5 minutes (depending on how naughty he was) but his has to set in a box - for all to see - for a like amount of time :( >:D :'(. Maybe that's why hockey players have such an aggressive attitude ??? :o ::) ??
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This past weekend I attended a couple of ice hockey games (ice freezes much quicker up here). When a penalty is called there, not only does the naughty party have his number posted on the scoreboard for 2/5 minutes (depending on how naughty he was) but his has to set in a box - for all to see - for a like amount of time :( >:D :'(. Maybe that's why hockey players have such an aggressive attitude ??? :o ::) ??
I went to a boxing match once and a hockey game broke out. ;D
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This past weekend I attended a couple of ice hockey games (ice freezes much quicker up here). When a penalty is called there, not only does the naughty party have his number posted on the scoreboard for 2/5 minutes (depending on how naughty he was) but his has to set in a box - for all to see - for a like amount of time :( >:D :'(. Maybe that's why hockey players have such an aggressive attitude ??? :o ::) ??
Unless you're a goalie. In that case, another player serves the penalty FOR you and has HIS number displayed on the board for all to see.
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Forgive me, but is there a relevant, material reason why ANYONE other than the game Coaches, and the offending player and field officials who needs to know the identity of the offending player, aside from when a player is disqualified (at the NFHS level)?
A better question would be, why wouldn't we announce it? The R already has the information, why withhold it? We announce the foul, the enforcement, unusual situations, timeouts, etc...
By your logic we shouldn't announce anything.
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We are rarely on the microphone so the number announcement is usually no big deal- we still tell the coaches. Last year was the one and only time I had an AD specifically ask that we do not announce the number (even though we were not on a mic) as he thought it embarrassed the player. We did tell the coach when he asked.
For the perception that football is a sport for the "toughest" athletes, having one's number announced over the PA is certainly a pathetic thing to get embarrassed about. Either the kids need thicker skin or the AD is enabling fragile egos. If my kid complained to me about the R announcing his number, I'd laugh and tell him to get over it.
Again, in basketball the PA announcer generally states the fouling player's number AND name and there are never any issues. Makes no sense why in high school football we have to be concerned about "embarrassing" these supposedly tough kids.
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A better question would be, why wouldn't we announce it? The R already has the information, why withhold it? We announce the foul, the enforcement, unusual situations, timeouts, etc...
By your logic we shouldn't announce anything.
Not exactly. for 50+ years the common practice was NOT TO ANNOUNCE PLAYERS NUMBERS, although as a courtesy, essentially for "coaching assistance" we usually informed the coach of the offending player, for possible remedial action. There didn't seem to be ANY NECESSITY, that anyone else need be advised of the identity of the guilty player.
The salient question might be, What has changed? or Why is it necessary to identify the offending player to the general audience? Is there a purpose, benefit or logical reason for doing so?
Yes, with the advent of televised games at higher levels, and broadcasters quick to share their opinions, the practice has become common, but the same questions apply, which to my knowledge have yet to be answered, even at those levels much less than being necessary (appropriate) at an Interscholastic level.
Logically, the simple question is, WHY, is it necessary to start doing something, that has not been deemed necessary for the past 75+ years, unless of course their is some rational benefit, or need satisfied, by doing so. Hopefully, there's a better justification for doing so than, "because the higher levels are doing so (without anyone understanding, WHY)
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Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team. pHiNzuP Or even the boos >:( >:( >:( >:( when I announce a number for the home team.
There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers. And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw. That never goes well. "Your just making that up. Your screwin' us."
Robert
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Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team. pHiNzuP Or even the boos >:( >:( >:( >:( when I announce a number for the home team.
There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers. And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw. That never goes well. "Your just making that up. Your screwin' us."
Robert
Add a little suspense in the announcement. Give the signal and then a slight delay on which direction you are pointing. The boos and cheers seem to be a little more louder. ;D
My thought on this discussion is that if a player gets tired of hearing his number called he should stop fouling.
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Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team. pHiNzuP Or even the boos >:( >:( >:( >:( when I announce a number for the home team.
There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers. And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw. That never goes well. "Your just making that up. Your screwin' us."
Robert
You beat me to it.
Definitely adds credibility to our call, especially when it's not out in the open. Or, for example, if you have OPI for a pick or block down field. If you just announce OPI, everyone assumes it's a push-off. If you add the number in there, you can see that we didn't call it on the player who caught the ball. Cuts down on the rabble-rabble from coaches and fans.
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Not exactly. for 50+ years the common practice was NOT TO ANNOUNCE PLAYERS NUMBERS, although as a courtesy, essentially for "coaching assistance" we usually informed the coach of the offending player, for possible remedial action. There didn't seem to be ANY NECESSITY, that anyone else need be advised of the identity of the guilty player.
The salient question might be, What has changed? or Why is it necessary to identify the offending player to the general audience? Is there a purpose, benefit or logical reason for doing so?
Yes, with the advent of televised games at higher levels, and broadcasters quick to share their opinions, the practice has become common, but the same questions apply, which to my knowledge have yet to be answered, even at those levels much less than being necessary (appropriate) at an Interscholastic level.
Logically, the simple question is, WHY, is it necessary to start doing something, that has not been deemed necessary for the past 75+ years, unless of course their is some rational benefit, or need satisfied, by doing so. Hopefully, there's a better justification for doing so than, "because the higher levels are doing so (without anyone understanding, WHY)
Why did we switch to black pants from knickers? Why did we go to wider stripes? Why do mechanics evolve and change every year? Why is Massachusetts moving from NCAA to NFHS rules?
Again, I ask: why NOT announce the guilty party when we are already announcing everything else? Are you arguing that we don't need any announcements? You seem unable to answer these questions.
And FYI the reason things at higher levels tend to trickle down to high school is because the powers-that-be realize that it is a BETTER way to do things. That is fine that you don't see the necessity and want to stay in the 70s, but that doesn't mean the majority has to agree with you (and clearly it doesn't).
Logically, there is no reason NOT to announce numbers. "Because we've never done it" isn't logical.
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Oh, I don't know...
I kinda like the cheer from the home crowd when I announce a number for the visiting team. pHiNzuP Or even the boos >:( >:( >:( >:( when I announce a number for the home team.
There is zero - repeat - ZERO harm in announcing player numbers. And announcing numbers gives the call a solid measure of credibility, as compared to just penalizing a team for a holding foul that only we saw in real time, but no fan/broadcaster saw. That never goes well. "Your just making that up. Your screwin' us."
Robert
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.....A helpful hint I received from an ice hockey official is : "If you have penalties on both teams, have the PA announce the home penalty FIRST...that will begin to draw boo's until the visitor's penalty is announced, the fans will then quiet down." I've since tried that on double fouls and it works. :)
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we usually informed the coach of the offending player, for possible remedial action.
The part that gets me is, I understand when there is a hold that went unnoticed on the far side or a facemask in the pile, but when, oh say, one defender hits the QB and RTP is called why in the world coaches continue to ask "who's it on"? Or even better- Illegal Sub/Participation for 12 on the field- "What's the number?!"
"The 12th one, Coach, you pick."
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.....A helpful hint I received from an ice hockey official is : "If you have penalties on both teams, have the PA announce the home penalty FIRST...that will begin to draw boo's until the visitor's penalty is announced, the fans will then quiet down." I've since tried that on double fouls and it works. :)
I don't disagree, but the down side of that is, in football ( ;)) sometimes the order of occurrence is important, and it is better, overall, to announce them in their order. Definitely in the case of live-ball foul followed by dead-ball foul.
Robert
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Why did we switch to black pants from knickers? Why did we go to wider stripes? Why do mechanics evolve and change every year? Why is Massachusetts moving from NCAA to NFHS rules?
Again, I ask: why NOT announce the guilty party when we are already announcing everything else? Are you arguing that we don't need any announcements? You seem unable to answer these questions.
And FYI the reason things at higher levels tend to trickle down to high school is because the powers-that-be realize that it is a BETTER way to do things. That is fine that you don't see the necessity and want to stay in the 70s, but that doesn't mean the majority has to agree with you (and clearly it doesn't).
Logically, there is no reason NOT to announce numbers. "Because we've never done it" isn't logical.
Absolutely agree, NOT doing something SOLELY, "Because we've never done it" is NOT logical, no more illogical, however, than STARTING solely to do something, "Because we've never done it". For the past 75+ years we've "announced" relevant penalty details (so those paying attention know EXACTLY what's going on) through official, approved, consistent penalty signals directed to BOTH sidelines.
We switched to black pants for multiple, logical reasons (Maintenance, comfort, practicality) and wider shirt stripes to improve visibility (especially to better identify field officials in front of Team Box areas). Mechanics evolve primarily because crew sizes expand to keep pace with the game and added experience contributes improved practices. I can only presume eliminating difficulties and confusion with Interstate games between NCAA and NFHS ruled teams was one reason MA decided adopting the NFHS rules code.
The question REMAINS, what is the beneficial or practical, PURPOSE of announcing the identity of a fouling player, to spectators that would require change? You might consider, that ONLY those practices that ACTUALLY prove applicable to the NFHS (Interscholastic) level, that "trickle down" after serious consideration and review, are adopted for NFHS contests WHEN they are SPECIFICALLY determined to be "a BETTER way to do things" AT/FOR NFHS contests.
Actually, the 1970s are long gone, but I DON'T SEE any significant benefit or necessity for this change, and you have yet to provide any relevant or convincing reason to persuade doing so. Of course if you personally prefer to do so, I'm not aware of any official prohibition preventing YOU from choosing to doing so.
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Add a little suspense in the announcement. Give the signal and then a slight delay on which direction you are pointing. The boos and cheers seem to be a little more louder. ;D
Yeah. That is something Walt Anderson preached in clinics. Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build) - then say the team, and hear the crowd go wild with delight or nuts with disgust. Just the facts, ma'am.
Robert
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Why announce player numbers? Inquiring minds want to know (the numbers).
Granted, many of those minds are watching on TV, and only a small percentage of the sum total of all American football games are televised. But, it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL).
Those that may get offended that the player's number is announced just need to get over it. It is here to stay.
Robert
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Those that may get offended that the player's number is announced just need to get over it. It is here to stay.
Robert
Amen.
I will say it again. There will be people who say "you can't compare sports" or "I don't care what basketball does," but it is relevant here. No one bats an eye when a basketball player fouls and has his (1) number, (2) name, and (3) number of fouls announced (even on technical fouls) to the crowd. Why is it that football people want to get offended about having only one of those three things announced?
Officials that are anti-announcing numbers, I would say: do you wish to avoid announcing the number because you don't know who fouled?
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Absolutely agree, NOT doing something SOLELY, "Because we've never done it" is NOT logical, no more illogical, however, than STARTING solely to do something, "Because we've never done it". For the past 75+ years we've "announced" relevant penalty details (so those paying attention know EXACTLY what's going on) through official, approved, consistent penalty signals directed to BOTH sidelines.
We switched to black pants for multiple, logical reasons (Maintenance, comfort, practicality) and wider shirt stripes to improve visibility (especially to better identify field officials in front of Team Box areas). Mechanics evolve primarily because crew sizes expand to keep pace with the game and added experience contributes improved practices. I can only presume eliminating difficulties and confusion with Interstate games between NCAA and NFHS ruled teams was one reason MA decided adopting the NFHS rules code.
The question REMAINS, what is the beneficial or practical, PURPOSE of announcing the identity of a fouling player, to spectators that would require change? You might consider, that ONLY those practices that ACTUALLY prove applicable to the NFHS (Interscholastic) level, that "trickle down" after serious consideration and review, are adopted for NFHS contests WHEN they are SPECIFICALLY determined to be "a BETTER way to do things" AT/FOR NFHS contests.
Actually, the 1970s are long gone, but I DON'T SEE any significant benefit or necessity for this change, and you have yet to provide any relevant or convincing reason to persuade doing so. Of course if you personally prefer to do so, I'm not aware of any official prohibition preventing YOU from choosing to doing so.
That is great that you don't see a rationale, but it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do. Your rambling and opining about how NFHS rules are for "interscholastic" play are irrelevant to this issue.
"Spectators don't need to know what the foul is. If they see us walking off the yardage that should be enough for them." That is your logic.
I'm still looking for you to answer the question, why wouldn't we announce the number when we are already announcing everything else?
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Yeah. That is something Walt Anderson preached in clinics. Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build) - then say the team, and hear the crowd go wild with delight or nuts with disgust. Just the facts, ma'am.
Robert
This is why I like to not give a preliminary signal. Once you point toward a team, all the suspense is gone and people don't pay attention to your real announcement.
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That is great that you don't see a rationale, but it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do. Your rambling and opining about how NFHS rules are for "interscholastic" play are irrelevant to this issue.
"Spectators don't need to know what the foul is. If they see us walking off the yardage that should be enough for them." That is your logic.
I'm still looking for you to answer the question, why wouldn't we announce the number when we are already announcing everything else?
I wouldn't conclude ANYTHING IS CLEAR to "the majority of officials by this thread". The QUESTION remains, Why (what logical, practical reason) is there any need (benefit, purpose) to add "identifying announcements" to the long established policies of signaling penalty details (which you have yet to suggest, other than NCAA & NFL do).
My "logic" is simply the current signaling procedures provide all the details necessary for a spectator to clearly understand what is happening, regarding a penalty application. If you have a rational reason, please share it.
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I wouldn't conclude ANYTHING IS CLEAR to "the majority of officials by this thread". The QUESTION remains, Why (what logical, practical reason) is there any need (benefit, purpose) to add "identifying announcements" to the long established policies of signaling penalty details (which you have yet to suggest, other than NCAA & NFL do).
My "logic" is simply the current signaling procedures provide all the details necessary for a spectator to clearly understand what is happening, regarding a penalty application. If you have a rational reason, please share it.
Because we all feel like it ;D Why don't you give a compelling reason why not?
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Must be getting cold in upstate NY.....
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I wouldn't conclude ANYTHING IS CLEAR to "the majority of officials by this thread". The QUESTION remains, Why (what logical, practical reason) is there any need (benefit, purpose) to add "identifying announcements" to the long established policies of signaling penalty details (which you have yet to suggest, other than NCAA & NFL do).
My "logic" is simply the current signaling procedures provide all the details necessary for a spectator to clearly understand what is happening, regarding a penalty application. If you have a rational reason, please share it.
A few of us already have in this thread...
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A few of us already have in this thread...
Sorry if I've missed them, but if you're suggesting changing something that's worked fine, for 75+years up through and including today, I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "the big guys are doing it" as a reason for a universal mechanics change.
Of course if you want permission to implement the change personally, I don't see anything, anywhere prohibiting YOU from doing so, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better.
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Sorry if I've missed them, but if you're suggesting changing something that's worked fine, for 75+years up through and including today, I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "the big guys are doing it" as a reason for a universal mechanics change.
Of course if you want permission to implement the change personally, I don't see anything, anywhere prohibiting YOU from doing so, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better.
And I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "that's the way we've always done it". Again, what is the compelling reason not to do so?
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And I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "that's the way we've always done it". Again, what is the compelling reason not to do so?
Compelling reason Number 1: You seem unable/unwilling to suggest ANY reason (compelling or otherwise) that changing the current protocol provides any meaningful benefit, is somehow necessary or makes sense.
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Sorry if I've missed them, but if you're suggesting changing something that's worked fine, for 75+years up through and including today, I would hope you can come up with something more relevant than "the big guys are doing it" as a reason for a universal mechanics change.
Again, both ElvisLives and I gave good reasons earlier, which you have not addressed (selectively ignored). Neither of us mentioned NCAA/NFL.
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Again, both ElvisLives and I gave good reasons earlier, which you have not addressed (selectively ignored). Neither of us mentioned NCAA/NFL.
Excuse me "bossman72". the suggestions you reference (" Once you point toward a team, all the suspense is gone and people don't pay attention to your real announcement"), ("it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL"). ("That is something Walt Anderson ( a respected NFL official) preached in clinics".) ("Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build. ("Granted, many of those minds are watching on TV, and only a small percentage of the sum total of all American football games are televised. But, it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL), seem to reference that the practice is appropriate for NCAA and/or NFL, and should therefore "trickle down" to NFHS (which sometimes makes sense, but in many other instances DOES NOT.
As for, "Definitely adds credibility to our call, especially when it's not out in the open." I would respectfully suggest that spectators (or even Coaches) who "require" or demand "a number" to confirm credibility, are not worthy of special consideration or appeasement.
As previously suggested, if this is something you find it appropriate or helpful to do, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition preventing you, personally, from doing it - but suggesting, " but, it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do" sounds more like "wishful thinking". Should you have some practically demonstrable reasons for doing so, I'd be happy to seriously consider your suggestions.
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I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but could it be that numbers were never announced in the past in high school football because the referee didn't have a microphone? When there is no microphone, all you have is signals so there's no need to announce a number...except for the lip readers in the audience. I'm not old enough to remember, but did referees announce numbers in NCAA or NFL before they had microphones? Now that referees have microphones in many, many high school games, maybe announcing numbers is something that needs to be changed.
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I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but could it be that numbers were never announced in the past in high school football because the referee didn't have a microphone? When there is no microphone, all you have is signals so there's no need to announce a number...except for the lip readers in the audience. I'm not old enough to remember, but did referees announce numbers in NCAA or NFL before they had microphones? Now that referees have microphones in many, many high school games, maybe announcing numbers is something that needs to be changed.
NCAA started announcing numbers around 2005.
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For the perception that football is a sport for the "toughest" athletes, having one's number announced over the PA is certainly a pathetic thing to get embarrassed about. Either the kids need thicker skin or the AD is enabling fragile egos. If my kid complained to me about the R announcing his number, I'd laugh and tell him to get over it.
Again, in basketball the PA announcer generally states the fouling player's number AND name and there are never any issues. Makes no sense why in high school football we have to be concerned about "embarrassing" these supposedly tough kids.
To preface, I dont care if they announce the numbers or not.
The points are fine points, however, announcing numbers is critical to having 5 fouls (scorekeeping) for BB vs football where there is no limit (sans USC)
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I'll have to do some research, but I know we were using microphones in 1999, when I started in FBS (D-1A). My personal first use of a microphone was my first FBS (D1-A) game as a Referee in 2002.
Regarding the use of microphones in High School, announcing numbers "trickled down" years ago. Been doing it in Texas for about a decade, now, with no ramifications, repercussions or lawsuits related to announcements.
Time flies when you're having fun!
Robert
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To preface, I dont care if they announce the numbers or not.
The points are fine points, however, announcing numbers is critical to having 5 fouls (scorekeeping) for BB vs football where there is no limit (sans USC)
We don't announce the numbers over the PA; the announcer does.
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NCAA started announcing numbers around 2005.
Not saying you are wrong but I could have sworn in the early to mid 80's if the Referees had Mic's in College that Numbers were announced
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Referee microphones became recommended in 1991. They became STRONGLY recommended in 2003. The strong recommendation for lapel type microphones appeared in 2008. Referee’s microphones became mandatory in 2010 (lapel type still strongly recommended).
Now, just when in there we began announcing numbers, I can’t say, but I’m sure it was well before 1999, because it was already being done when I broke into FBS in 1999. Surprisingly, it isn’t prescribed in the CCA manuals until 2005 (maybe 2004, but I can’t find my copy of the 2004 manual).
Not certain when the UIL (Texas) approved use of referee’s mics for their High School contests, but it has been since the mid-2000s, at least. Announcing numbers was not permitted at first, but the UIL permitted that many years ago.
The press box folks need the numbers, for record keeping and media reporting. Because of this thread, I’ve asked a number of friends and other non-officials if they pay attention to announcements of player’s numbers. A majority say yes, but that majority are largely men. Women don’t seem to care. But, none of those are parent’s of any current players. Not a scientific poll, but something of an indicator, anyway. Some folks need them, some folks want them, some folks don’t care.
So, there’s the history, and additional reasons for announcing numbers. I’m sure that won’t be good enough for some folks, but, we can only lead a horse to water.
What is it the young kids say? Peace out... ;)
Robert
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IN a previous life I believe I was a town crier....you know, the guy that yelled, "THREE O'CLOCK AND ALL IS WELL!" . I became a white hat before ref's mic and PA announcers. I always yelled the foul, guilty party and down/distance to both sides. I always felt that the coach would want to know : (1) the guilty party, (2) that we saw the foul well enough to recognize the guilty party. I've never had any complaints or viewed players seeming upset with being "turned in". Locally, we leave it up to the white hat, but I strongly feel the guilty player's coach should know.
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Excuse me "bossman72". the suggestions you reference (" Once you point toward a team, all the suspense is gone and people don't pay attention to your real announcement"), ("it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL"). ("That is something Walt Anderson ( a respected NFL official) preached in clinics".) ("Say the Foul - pause - say the Number - pause (let the suspense build. ("Granted, many of those minds are watching on TV, and only a small percentage of the sum total of all American football games are televised. But, it harms no one to give the number, and it is prescribed in the officiating manuals for NCAA football, and for UIL (Texas) football (and, I suppose, the NFL), seem to reference that the practice is appropriate for NCAA and/or NFL, and should therefore "trickle down" to NFHS (which sometimes makes sense, but in many other instances DOES NOT.
As for, "Definitely adds credibility to our call, especially when it's not out in the open." I would respectfully suggest that spectators (or even Coaches) who "require" or demand "a number" to confirm credibility, are not worthy of special consideration or appeasement.
As previously suggested, if this is something you find it appropriate or helpful to do, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition preventing you, personally, from doing it - but suggesting, " but, it is clear by this thread that the majority of officials do" sounds more like "wishful thinking". Should you have some practically demonstrable reasons for doing so, I'd be happy to seriously consider your suggestions.
Rambling and using bold/italicized/underlined text doesn't make you any more right.
Clearly you are in the minority, and that's your right. But to act like the majority doesn't disagree with you is just ignorant. Wake up and smell the coffee.
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Thanks, Zebrastripes, for clearing up what MY experiences "should" suggest to ME. Apparently, I'm not as aware, or concerned, about whatever "the majority" (you have designated) has decided, as you seem to think I should be.
As previously suggested, if you think the practice of announcing numbers is appropriate, knock yourself out, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition in doing so. All you need to do is make your own decision as however you see fit. You really don't need my permission, or approval to do so (much like I'm not seeking your approval, or permission, when I decide to use, "Rambling and using bold/italicized/underlined text").
Don't forget, it's entirely, and exclusively up to you alone, to decide whether to pay any attention to anything I suggest, or totally ignore anything/everything I might offer.
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Forgive my seeming ignorance in this matter, but in the overall scheme of things, what difference does it make whether you announce the numbers or not. If your mechanics dictate you must, then go ahead. If not, then it is a personal choice. (Our state dictates you do not.) We do need to inform the coaches. I do not see the need for personal attacks and harsh words about this seemingly insignificant matter. ???
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Forgive my seeming ignorance in this matter, but in the overall scheme of things, what difference does it make whether you announce the numbers or not. If your mechanics dictate you must, then go ahead. If not, then it is a personal choice. (Our state dictates you do not.) We do need to inform the coaches. I do not see the need for personal attacks and harsh words about this seemingly insignificant matter. ???
The point is that there is no valid reason not to do it and many reasons to do it. The historical reason it was avoided was in order to not embarrass the players, but that has been shown to be a bunch of hogwash with rare exceptions.
In the case of the one dissenter, he has failed to provide a reason why we shouldn't announce numbers other than "we've never done it."
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How truly fortunate we are, to be blessed with someone to officially declare what reasons (concerns, ideas, etc.) are actually valid, and which are simply, "a bunch of hogwash".
Thanks for advising we all can simply ignore "historical reason". Bothering to understanding, consider, comprehend and reflect on previous "reasons" can be so tiring. It would be so nice, and maybe even helpful. if someone could simply state and articulate even some of the, "many reasons" now demanding the necessity of this practice at the NFHS level, that unfortunately seems vague and unnecessary to those of us (guilty of perhaps smelling/drinking the wrong coffee) who see little, if any, beneficial or practical value to requiring this detail being shared with spectators.
Who knows, maybe even the reason, ""we've never done it.", is simply because nobody has ever concluded a valid necessity to start.
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Forgive my seeming ignorance in this matter, but in the overall scheme of things, what difference does it make whether you announce the numbers or not. If your mechanics dictate you must, then go ahead. If not, then it is a personal choice. (Our state dictates you do not.) We do need to inform the coaches. I do not see the need for personal attacks and harsh words about this seemingly insignificant matter. ???
what he said.
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How truly fortunate we are, to be blessed with someone to officially declare what reasons (concerns, ideas, etc.) are actually valid, and which are simply, "a bunch of hogwash".
Thanks for advising we all can simply ignore "historical reason". Bothering to understanding, consider, comprehend and reflect on previous "reasons" can be so tiring. It would be so nice, and maybe even helpful. if someone could simply state and articulate even some of the, "many reasons" now demanding the necessity of this practice at the NFHS level, that unfortunately seems vague and unnecessary to those of us (guilty of perhaps smelling/drinking the wrong coffee) who see little, if any, beneficial or practical value to requiring this detail being shared with spectators.
Who knows, maybe even the reason, ""we've never done it.", is simply because nobody has ever concluded a valid necessity to start.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Out of senile curiosity I went back in time to find the last topic that drew as many responses. I finally found it :
APRIL 27, 2016
TOPIC : "BRADY DID IT - DEFLATEGATE"
RESPONSES : 82
THIS IS CURRENTLY AT 61, RULESMAN LOCKED THE ABOVE AT 82, MAYBE THIS TOPIC DESERVES A SIMULAR FATE... pi1eOn hEaDbAnG :puke:
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Out of senile curiosity I went back in time to find the last topic that drew as many responses. I finally found it :
APRIL 27, 2016
TOPIC : "BRADY DID IT - DEFLATEGATE"
RESPONSES : 82
THIS IS CURRENTLY AT 61, RULESMAN LOCKED THE ABOVE AT 82, MAYBE THIS TOPIC DESERVES A SIMULAR FATE... pi1eOn hEaDbAnG :puke:
I can get it over 82:
We NEED a 40 sec play clock in high school.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/c5dd72c7443a2d62ceb22c4e4c672f4c/tenor.gif?itemid=9536199)
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As for, "Definitely adds credibility to our call, especially when it's not out in the open." I would respectfully suggest that spectators (or even Coaches) who "require" or demand "a number" to confirm credibility, are not worthy of special consideration or appeasement.
I don’t worry about spectators. Coaches are a different matter — they need numbers for their film review and other coaching purposes.
Around here, where high school football is taken very seriously, a crew who can’t (or won’t) provide the number of a fouling player gets downgraded very quickly in a coach’s eyes.
BLACK BEARS RULE!
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I don’t worry about spectators. Coaches are a different matter — they need numbers for their film review and other coaching purposes.
Providing Coaches with the offending player's number is a standard, automatic procedure. In those exceedingly RARE situations where a number may not be available, Coaches usually understand and accept the rarity of the situation, without a lot of complaint or comment.
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We report numbers to the coaches whenever possible. The best though is when calling illegal formation.
Coach screams, "NUMBER!!!"
Coach not sure but you didn't have 7 on the line.
coach, "Well who was off?"
5 guys coach.
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We report numbers to the coaches whenever possible. The best though is when calling illegal formation.
Coach screams, "NUMBER!!!"
Coach not sure but you didn't have 7 on the line.
coach, "Well who was off?"
5 guys coach.
We had one a couple of years ago, where the second string was sent in a game where the outcome was already decided.
The snapper of the leading team apparently forgot the snap count. The rest of the team had remembered and went into action while the snapper was still over the ball :-[. I was wearing a mic and my demented brain told my mouth to say :
"FALSE START ON EVERYONE BUT THE CENTER"
THE COACH LAUGHED, HE WAS AHEAD...IF HE WAS BEHIND ,HE PROBABOLY WOULDN'T LAUGH....AND I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SAID IT...
tR:oLl :puke:
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The only compelling reason I know for not announcing the numbers if the instances you don't have a number and those where you have the wrong number. The lower you get the worse getting the right number is and HS officials are probably all over the board on how good they are at getting the right number. If you only share it with the coach you limit the awareness of your mistake. If you announce it to everyone they all may found out you had the wrong number or no number.
That being said, I'm a huge fan of including the number. It's something everyone is used to watching other sports and other levels of football. It helps the broadcasters if they are going to show a replay to know which player committed the foul. It helps knowledgeable fans in the stands to know where the foul occurred. They may have seen 85's block and thought it wasn't a foul but if you announce the hold was on 62 (the pulling guard) they'll at least know the block they saw wasn't a hold. As an official I wish they announced the number for games I watch either live or on TV, but we are a very small percentage of the viewing public. Ultimately it's just one of those traditions that now doesn't make any sense to keep. Announce the numbers as best you can and move on.